Topic: Newbie...minidisc vs. digital audio recorder for recording concerts

[jklock]

Hi all, for some time now I've been wanting to get into taping and record some of the local shows in NYC that I attend (bands like Black Dice, Gang Gang Dance, Animal Collective, etc. that are extremely loud and bassy).  I've been debating whether or not to pick up a MD recorder or a digital one like the Edirol R-09.  I picked up Sony ECM 719 mic not too long ago to test on this cheap voice recorder I bought a few years back but its meant for MD so it really didn't make a huge difference on the little sony voice recorder I have- and I didn't pay a whole lot for it so not using it for newer recordings wouldn't be an issue.  Anyways, I've heard transferring recordings from a md to a computer (I have a mac) can be a pain with the exception of models like the Sony MZ RH 1 and the MZ M200 which feature regular usb transfer.  If anyone could give me some input on the best decision to make/specific models/and other advice it would be greatly appreciated!!

[greenone]

The main disadvantage of Minidisc is that you're limited to 94 minutes of 16-bit, 44.1kHz recording with Hi-MD. Unless you already have a MD player, I'd stay away from them. You can pick up a Microtrack II for the same price, pick up an 8GB CF card for $25 and be done with dealing with actual media forever...

[nameloc01]

I'd be more concerned with a decent microphone setup than with what type of deck youre using to record with...thats more important.

digital audio recorders are definitely easier to record with,but they have their drawbacks too. Ironically, the Sony HIMDs have better preamps and such than almost all of the small handheld digital recorders, but like mentioned above, unless you are running 2 decks, or want to gamble with getting a clean disc flip, you may lose some audio at swap time..it all comes down to what youre comfortable running.

[jklock]

I would definitely prefer just clicking record on a digital recorder as opposed to worry about all of the hassle with a md.  And for one of the newer/better (?- from what i've read) mds it could cost me $400-$600...which seems absolutely insane for a piece of obsolete technology

[nameloc01]

understandable.

look at some mics..thats paramount.

[jklock]

with recorders like the edirol and the microtrack II that greenone mentioned, are there any mics that are better off for those particular recorders?  I have a feeling that most of the shows that I will be recording will have to be done stealth if that plays any part in it

[nameloc01]

theres a ton of mini microphones available,look into Audio Technica,Church Audio,DPA,Sennheiser,ect,ect... all depends on what you want to spend..$$

theres a ton of threads on here about all the different types.

better yet, start listening to a bunch of live recordings to give you (a vague) idea of where to start as far as different mics and what they offer

[greenone]

They don't really design mics for recorders...any mic you buy will be able to interface with your recorder with the right cables/connectors. If you're going low-profile, then that definitely narrows your focus considerably. If you want to go as absolutely small as possible, you'd want something that could be powered directly by the mic-in on your deck (most mics need to be powered by either a preamp or at least a battery box, and plugged into the line-in, unless they're self-powered). Then you'd need just mics and whatever deck you choose. Most folks go with some sort of small external box even if they're low-profile, which opens your options up a bit.

[boojum]

I have used an MD recorder in the past.  It gave me some good results with Microphone Madness   MM-HLSC-1 mics and Sound Professional SP-CMC-4U's.  I was using the SONY Hi-MD RH-1.  It is a great recorder.  Most bands have sets shorter than 94 minutes so swapping discs is not a great big problem.

I have either been pooh-poohed or ignored on this board when I was using the Hi-MD.  Nevertheless I got good recordings.          The mechanical parts can fail.  The solid state recorders fail, too.  Just from other things.  If you want the whole skinny on MD's go to minidisc.org.  SONY considers the HiMD/MD a "mature" technology so there will likely not be any further development of the platform.

Upside: easy fit in a shirt pocket with more power and quality than the old Ampex tape recorders.  Pretty cool.

Whatever you decide to buy remember to have fun.

Cheers

[jklock]

Thanks all.

Yeah the whole reason why I was so torn on md and digital was because I've heard some really great recordings come from a sony md, while all of the amazing digital recordings i've heard have come out of extremely expensive recorders and mics...and I don't have $1000 right now to drop on a set up

[jlykos]

Thanks all.

Yeah the whole reason why I was so torn on md and digital was because I've heard some really great recordings come from a sony md, while all of the amazing digital recordings i've heard have come out of extremely expensive recorders and mics...and I don't have $1000 right now to drop on a set up

If you have half of that amount, you could do well for yourself by picking up a used digital recorder here from the Yard Sale and a set of Church Audio microphones, Core Sound Binaurals, Sonic Studios DSM microphones, or something similar.  Figure on ~$200 for a used recorder and ~$300 for the mics.  Probably even less for the mics.  If you want to upgrade to better mics in the future, you can always sell the mics and keep the recorder; that won't change.

[Aladar]

..or, if you want budget option (oh how I can understand you), you can always get old iRiver H120 (many people like it here, plus its neat mp3 player, I think you should be able to get them at around $120 max) or Tascam DR-07 (around $130) and get a Church mic (it seems you could even get a free battbox http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=130844.0). That's about $200 and should give you great recordings (many people use this combo).

[sunjan]

..or, if you want budget option (oh how can I understand you), you can always get old iRiver H120 (many people like it here, plus its neat mp3 player, I think you should be able to get them at around $120 max) or Tascam DR-07 (around $130) and get a Church mic (it seems you could even get a free battbox http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=130844.0). That's about $200 and should give you great recordings (many people use this combo).

What he said.
CA-11>ST-9000>H320
$200 for the church combo, the irivers can be had from $70 on ebay with some patience. You don't need the digi-in, go for the 300 series, they're cheaper.

$270 for a perfectly decent 16-bit stealth rig. And you'll never have to worry about a disc flip in your life again :-)

[greenone]

Yeah the whole reason why I was so torn on md and digital was because I've heard some really great recordings come from a sony md, while all of the amazing digital recordings i've heard have come out of extremely expensive recorders and mics...and I don't have $1000 right now to drop on a set up

The recorder has much less to do with the final sound of a recording than the mics do. The preamp/analog-to-digital in the recorder (or the outboard one, if you use one) will color the sound some, but most folks will tell you that your mics determine that more than anything else.

[yltfan]

Another thing to mention is the ease of transferring something from your recorder to your computer. With an R-09, or iriver, it's real easy. With MD, not so much...

My low-pro and pretty cheap setup is AT853>ca9100>iriver120. Set me back $400 total. It works nicely for me in lots of situations, and sounds good enough that my friend who runs Schoeps MK4>nbox>R-09 likes to borrow my rig for some situations.

And, speak of the devil:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=133193.0

[rhinowing]

something I didn't see in a quick glance at this thread--MD is basically a dying format. Good luck finding discs for it in a few years....

[ilduclo]

Thanks all.

Yeah the whole reason why I was so torn on md and digital was because I've heard some really great recordings come from a sony md, while all of the amazing digital recordings i've heard have come out of extremely expensive recorders and mics...and I don't have $1000 right now to drop on a set up

I've found an awful lot of the quality of the shows I record are in the room, the soundguy plays a huge role, and sometimes the best quality gear is not a real help. I still use an old model MD, Sharp mdmt770 as well as my even older DAT and a new Sony d50.  My mic choice is the dpa omni's (I have 4061's) and they are really nice.

[illconditioned]

I would not recommend iRiver or NJB3 for *analog* inputs.
An Edirol R09 (or HR) is good for amplified music (mic in).
A Sony PCMD50/M10 is great for quiet (acoustic) music (mic in).
No need for a preamp in either case.
Possibly need a battery box, but I've used both with mics directly in.
Simplest setup and excellent sound...
  Richard

[jklock]

Yeah I'm kind of going back and forth between the R-09hr and the Microtrack II.  I'm definitely liking the price of the microtrack a bit more haha but I've been doing a lot of reading on these boards and a ton of people have issues with the battery. Also, excuse my ignorance concerning terminology but it seems common for people to use the microtrack II as a bitbucket...what exactly does that mean?

[it-goes-to-eleven]

I own a microtrack and would never, ever, buy a microtrack II.  There is a long history of m-audio making all sorts of lofty claims about the original microtrack and then delivering a piece of crap.

If you want a good, clear reason why you should avoid the microtrack ii, it has a built in battery that you cannot change.  You must send it to m-audio for replacement.  The warranty on the battery is only 90 days.  That should tell you something.

You can pickup a used r09 for $150 in the yard..  That's a steal.

I like running external pre-amps because they tend to sound better, not just because of the noise floor.  But that is a discussion for another thread.

[jklock]

oh that sounds awful...nevermind!  If I can grab a r-09 or hr for around that price I'll be set

[sunjan]

Also, excuse my ignorance concerning terminology but it seems common for people to use the microtrack II as a bitbucket...what exactly does that mean?

Basically, going digital-in on the MTII, avoiding the built-in AD. Note that mic-in is noisy on the MTII, whereas some users are reasonably happy with the line-in. That said, if you're only after a recorder with line-in, you can get the DR-07 for less.

[yltfan]

I would not recommend iRiver or NJB3 for *analog* inputs.

I agree with you on the NJB3, but what's your beef with the iriver? Never had a problem with the analog input, my only complaint is how hard it is to install a new battery.

Just curious...

[greenone]

Also, excuse my ignorance concerning terminology but it seems common for people to use the microtrack II as a bitbucket...what exactly does that mean?

Basically, going digital-in on the MTII, avoiding the built-in AD.

To explain further, if you're running through the mic or line inputs, you need to set levels on the recorder, make sure they're not too high or too low, etc. It's just one more thing to adjust in your signal chain (in addition to your external preamp, if you're running one). It's always a fine line to dance if you're adjusting your pre AND your recorder. However, if you're running digital in, there's nothing to adjust on the recorder - it takes the digital signal and records it, just like filling up a bucket with water. Then all you have to control is the hose (i.e. the signal coming from your preamp/AD convertor).

It doesn't sound like you'll be going digital in, in which case you don't really need the digi-in capabilities of the Microtrack - that's the only real reason I bought it, because it's the cheapest recorder out there with RCA digital in. I'm always taping openly so I don't mind running an external battery pack along with it, which takes the crappy battery life out of the equation.

If you're going to be running low-pro, I'd second the R-09/R-09HR recommendation as you'd want something with a decent mic-in, and it's a proven performer in those types of situations.

[Church-Audio]

Hi all, for some time now I've been wanting to get into taping and record some of the local shows in NYC that I attend (bands like Black Dice, Gang Gang Dance, Animal Collective, etc. that are extremely loud and bassy).  I've been debating whether or not to pick up a MD recorder or a digital one like the Edirol R-09.  I picked up Sony ECM 719 mic not too long ago to test on this cheap voice recorder I bought a few years back but its meant for MD so it really didn't make a huge difference on the little sony voice recorder I have- and I didn't pay a whole lot for it so not using it for newer recordings wouldn't be an issue.  Anyways, I've heard transferring recordings from a md to a computer (I have a mac) can be a pain with the exception of models like the Sony MZ RH 1 and the MZ M200 which feature regular usb transfer.  If anyone could give me some input on the best decision to make/specific models/and other advice it would be greatly appreciated!!

Its very simple R09HR and be done with it.. No disks to get messed up MD was a great format and for some it still is. But when you compare MD to SD cards the SD kicks its ass for reliability. And ease of uploading to your computer.

Chris

[pafnuzzi]

Agree with Chris even if I prefer from my experience with both of them the Sony PCM M10 above the R-09HR because the internal mic pre is a lot quieter. So you could spend your money instead of an external preamp for a better mic, CA 14 instead of CA11, and go mic in with a bbox for not so loud or line in with bbox for loud concerts... Beside you have 4GB internal memory on the sony so don´t need SD Card.

[Ozpeter]

However, if you're running digital in, there's nothing to adjust on the recorder - it takes the digital signal and records it, just like filling up a bucket with water.

... unless it's a minidisc recorder such as the RH-1 which resamples the digital input and allows you to change the level.

[jbell]

Grab the $75 dollar H120 in the earlier post that is hard to beat or just sit and watch yard sale and you will find a deck pop up for a price you are willing to pay.  Don't be trigger happy, everytime I have a better deal popped up shortly after.  Do your research, it will pay off!  Good luck

[tekdroid]

If anyone could give me some input on the best decision to make/specific models/and other advice it would be greatly appreciated!!

Sony PCM-M10 will make you think long and hard about the future of MD recording.

[boojum]

If anyone could give me some input on the best decision to make/specific models/and other advice it would be greatly appreciated!!

Sony PCM-M10 will make you think long and hard about the future of MD recording.

There is no future to MD.  SONY has stopped development of the platform.  The Hi-MD RH-1 is, however, an excellent recorder.  It fits easily into a shirt pocket, has on-the-fly adjustable volume levels, a great front end and good sound.  94 minutes of recording per disc pretty much covers a set.  Few musical groups are playing for more than an hour and a half in one sitting.  Even the best of them need a pee or smoke break.

I love my RH-1 because it is tiny - it fits entirely into my shirt pocket - and powerful.  That is a  sweet form factor. If good sound and tiny form factor are not the most important thing there are other choices.  There are a lot of virtues to be evaluated.  When I got the RH-1 there were no solid state recorders out there to speak of so my decision was easy.  I got it in  '02.         

[Artstar]

Sony PCM-M10 will make you think long and hard about the future of MD recording.

Absolutely. From someone who has been into live recording since the release of the MZ-R50, having then owned the MZ-NH1 and then the MZ-RH1, moving on to the PCM-D50 and now recently the PCM-M10 definitely cements the idea that flash based recording is not such a bad thing as I once thought it was.

My motivation for sticking to MD (and more so HiMD later in life) was the fact that I had physical media for my masters and that was cheaper compared to having a whole stack of memory cards as masters instead. That and the MO media was no doubt more robust than memory cards. I wasn't overly concerned about swapping discs in the middle of a gig (of which I mastered the art with my MZ-R50, heheh) because when HiMD came around, I was happy to record in HiMD-SP mode with excellent results.

But with hard drives getting bigger and cheaper over the years, my opinion of storing the material was beginning to sway though I was not yet convinced. What did convince me, ultimately, was the day that a student apprentice dropped my MZ-RH1 which rendered the record head useless in it. That revealed the one last weakness of MD which I could not put up with again knowing that the MZ-RH1 was the most fragile unit in that aspect.

So it was out with the mechanical components to reduce the working parts down to purely electronic. I took the plunge while in Japan in June 2008, bought the PCM-D50 and haven't looked back since. Though a brick for taking into concerts, it served me extremely well and now with the PCM-M10, all my wishes have come true. Recording concerts in 24 bit mode really did give me noticeable improvements in the final result and that's something that I never would have seen with MD. Of course, it can only be of any real use if you use a decent set of mics with it.

I regret stocking up on all those HiMD discs. I must have around 50 blanks left over which I'll probably try to sell on eBay to clear out some drawer space.

So as was just previously advised, don't bother investing in a dead medium, get your hands on the PCM-M10 and then invest in a good set of mics. I've used the Core Sound binaurals (though pointing towards the stacks pinned on my collar spaced around 8 inches apart) for 11 years and only just recently decided to use Core Sound cardioids using the same 11 year old battery box.

My only hope is that when you finally decide on what mics to go for, if they happen to be Core Sound, Len won't take so long to get them out to you. My first experience with him back in 1998 was most pleasant and extremely rapid. I can't say the same for my second experience in 2009 as it took almost 8 weeks and no response to my emails or phone calls until I raised a PayPal dispute. Then I finally received them about two weeks thereafter. All is well and the mics perform superbly for the heavy metal and jazz gigs I so thoroughly enjoy reliving through my recordings.

I'm not sure what changed between 1998 and 2009 but that's the situation as it stands today. Those are my recommendations and that's my forewarning. Good luck!

[Artstar]

When I got the RH-1 there were no solid state recorders out there to speak of so my decision was easy.  I got it in  '02.         

Impossible. The MZ-NH1 came out in 2004. The MZ-RH1 didn't surface until 2006.

Solid state recorders (at least, pro-recorders that I can remember) didn't begin to surface until 2003 in small numbers but then the range began to grow from around 2005.

[boojum]

When I got the RH-1 there were no solid state recorders out there to speak of so my decision was easy.  I got it in  '02.         

Impossible. The MZ-NH1 came out in 2004. The MZ-RH1 didn't surface until 2006.

Solid state recorders (at least, pro-recorders that I can remember) didn't begin to surface until 2003 in small numbers but then the range began to grow from around 2005.

You are correct.  MY mistake.  It was an NH1 I bought in '02; the RH1 right after it came out, in '06.  They both still work fine.       

[Ozpeter]

I was happy to record in HiMD-SP mode with excellent results.

I've tended to use my RH-1 for backing up other recorders, and usually used Hi-SP mode with no reservations about its suitability for intercutting with wave format from the main recording if need be.  It gives you about 7 hours on a disc in that mode and I tended to simply leave it running all through a concert, including the interval, so that if I didn't get the main recording running when it should have been, I'd have some cover.

Now that it's semi-retired I'll probably set it up permanently on my desk top - as it's designed like a tiny full-size machine in terms of control, lid and display location, it works very well in that role.

[Artstar]

You are correct.  MY mistake.  It was an NH1 I bought in '02; the RH1 right after it came out, in '06.  They both still work fine.       

Again, the NH1 didn't come out until 2004.

[splumer]

I used to use MD, but the last time I bought blanks, I asked at Best Buy for minidiscs. The sales dude handed me a stack of mini-CD's.

On a side note, I think it's really wonderful how nice everyone is to newbies here. Even when someone asks a question that has, for us, a very obvious answer.

[nameloc01]

Sony PCM-M10 will make you think long and hard about the future of MD recording.

Absolutely. From someone who has been into live recording since the release of the MZ-R50, having then owned the MZ-NH1 and then the MZ-RH1, moving on to the PCM-D50 and now recently the PCM-M10 definitely cements the idea that flash based recording is not such a bad thing as I once thought it was.

My motivation for sticking to MD (and more so HiMD later in life) was the fact that I had physical media for my masters and that was cheaper compared to having a whole stack of memory cards as masters instead. That and the MO media was no doubt more robust than memory cards. I wasn't overly concerned about swapping discs in the middle of a gig (of which I mastered the art with my MZ-R50, heheh) because when HiMD came around, I was happy to record in HiMD-SP mode with excellent results.

But with hard drives getting bigger and cheaper over the years, my opinion of storing the material was beginning to sway though I was not yet convinced. What did convince me, ultimately, was the day that a student apprentice dropped my MZ-RH1 which rendered the record head useless in it. That revealed the one last weakness of MD which I could not put up with again knowing that the MZ-RH1 was the most fragile unit in that aspect.

So it was out with the mechanical components to reduce the working parts down to purely electronic. I took the plunge while in Japan in June 2008, bought the PCM-D50 and haven't looked back since. Though a brick for taking into concerts, it served me extremely well and now with the PCM-M10, all my wishes have come true. Recording concerts in 24 bit mode really did give me noticeable improvements in the final result and that's something that I never would have seen with MD. Of course, it can only be of any real use if you use a decent set of mics with it.

I regret stocking up on all those HiMD discs. I must have around 50 blanks left over which I'll probably try to sell on eBay to clear out some drawer space.

So as was just previously advised, don't bother investing in a dead medium, get your hands on the PCM-M10 and then invest in a good set of mics. I've used the Core Sound binaurals (though pointing towards the stacks pinned on my collar spaced around 8 inches apart) for 11 years and only just recently decided to use Core Sound cardioids using the same 11 year old battery box.

My only hope is that when you finally decide on what mics to go for, if they happen to be Core Sound, Len won't take so long to get them out to you. My first experience with him back in 1998 was most pleasant and extremely rapid. I can't say the same for my second experience in 2009 as it took almost 8 weeks and no response to my emails or phone calls until I raised a PayPal dispute. Then I finally received them about two weeks thereafter. All is well and the mics perform superbly for the heavy metal and jazz gigs I so thoroughly enjoy reliving through my recordings.

I'm not sure what changed between 1998 and 2009 but that's the situation as it stands today. Those are my recommendations and that's my forewarning. Good luck!

Hey,when you get ready to sell those blanks,Im ready to buy them...dead serious.

[boojum]

You are correct.  MY mistake.  It was an NH1 I bought in '02; the RH1 right after it came out, in '06.  They both still work fine.       

Again, the NH1 didn't come out until 2004.

Right again!  I just dug it out.  It is an N-1.  This is a "for sure" as I read the designation off the body of the machine.

Sorry about that.

[earmonger]

Count another minidisc defector here. Got the PCM-M10 and haven't looked back.

Once the giant stack of MDs are uploaded...and de-encrypted...and converted--did I really put up with this? with SonicStage? why?--they'll be in eBay land.