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Poll

What hyper cap do you prefer?

Gefell m21
16 (21.6%)
AKG 63
27 (36.5%)
Neumann
3 (4.1%)
Schoeps
25 (33.8%)
other
3 (4.1%)

Total Members Voted: 68

Author Topic: Hyper caps: What do your ears like?  (Read 11585 times)

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Offline Kindguy

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Hyper caps: What do your ears like?
« on: August 19, 2005, 12:17:44 AM »
I've only owned the AKG 63's, & loved them. They rocked with the 148 > ad500e

I want to buy the Gefell 21's, but it's tough for me to throw down 850.+ bucks for a set. Beacuse I also want actives. And I miss the AKG's to be honest.

I'm real torn. I like the Gefell's so far. I'm just not sure what direction to go now?

Vote away.  :alert:
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Offline nickgregory

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Re: Hyper caps: What do your ears like?
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2005, 07:37:55 AM »
The MGs and Schoeps hypers are in a class of their own...I prefer the MGs as I find them to have more of a neutral response, but the difference is negligible between the two imo

Offline dmonterisi

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Re: Hyper caps: What do your ears like?
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2005, 08:21:00 AM »
i love the mk41's.  haven't heard too many MG hyper tapes but i've like those as well, but the schoeps a bit more.  I didn't like the neumann hypers at all.  bought them ran them a few times, sold them.  i found them to be kind of harsh.

Offline Joe w.

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Re: Hyper caps: What do your ears like?
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2005, 08:23:57 AM »
i love the mk41's.  haven't heard too many MG hyper tapes but i've like those as well, but the schoeps a bit more.  I didn't like the neumann hypers at all.  bought them ran them a few times, sold them.  i found them to be kind of harsh.

agreed. The mk41's are my fav. nice bass response. the most versitile cap there is, imo.
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Offline heath

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Re: Hyper caps: What do your ears like?
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2005, 11:30:30 AM »
akg hypers rule your face.
And the Sultans... yeah the Sultans play creole

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Offline sygdwm

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Re: Hyper caps: What do your ears like?
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2005, 02:47:08 PM »
mics: (4)akg c460b(a60,mk46,ck1x,ck1,ck2,ck3,ck61,ck63)
pres: oade m148/edirol wmod ua5
recorders: marantz stock671/oade acm671/fostex busman vintage fr2le

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Re: Hyper caps: What do your ears like?
« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2005, 03:57:39 PM »
M 210 hyper
Frequency range Hz 40 ... 20000 Hz
Sensitivity at 1 kHz Pa 13 mV/
Switch position "reduced bass roll-off" at 60 Hz -15 dB
Rated impedance    150   
Equivalent loudness level
due to inherent noise CCIR 468-4 22 dB
DIN EN 60651 - A 14
Signal-to-noise-ratio
(re. 1 Pa at 1 kHz) CCIR-weighted 72 dB
A-weighted   80 dB
Max. SPL for THD  0,5 % 135 dB
with 10 dB preattenuation  145 dB
Total dynamic range of the microphone amplifier  121 dB
Current consumption
(P 48, DIN 45596, IEC 268-15) 3 mA 

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Re: Hyper caps: What do your ears like?
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2005, 04:02:47 PM »
 AKG C 480 B with CK 63/ULS
The microphone shall be of the condenser type with capsule and
powering module assembly no larger than 0.8 in. (21 mm)
in diameter. The microphone shall accept phantom powering at
48 volts. The nominal output impedance shall be equal to or less
than 150 ohms at 1 kHz, and the output shall be transformerless.
The microphone shall provide a three position control for normal (0
dB), elevated sensitivity (+6 dB), and attenuated (-10 dB) sensitivity.
Switchable low-frequency cuts at 150 Hz and 75 Hz at 12
dB/octave shall be provided.
The polar pattern shall be hypercardioid and nominal on-axis
frequency response shall be 20 Hz-20 kHz. For the normal
sensitivity setting of 0 dB, microphone sensitivity shall be at least
20 mV/Pa, and the self noise floor shall be no higher than 11 dB-A.
The 0.5% THD operating level shall be no lower than 140 dB SPL.
The microphone shall be the AKG Model C 480 B preamp
operating with the AKG Acoustics Model CK 63/ULS capsule.

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Re: Hyper caps: What do your ears like?
« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2005, 04:04:49 PM »
schoeps

Technical specifications:

Frequency range: 40 Hz - 20 kHz
Sensitivity: 13 mV/Pa
Equivalent noise level: A-weighted:
16 dB-A
CCIR: 24 dB
Signal-to-noise ratio
(A-weighted): 78 dB-A
Maximum SPL
(0.5% THD): 132 dB

Offline sygdwm

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Re: Hyper caps: What do your ears like?
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2005, 04:09:09 PM »
483's bass rules your face
mics: (4)akg c460b(a60,mk46,ck1x,ck1,ck2,ck3,ck61,ck63)
pres: oade m148/edirol wmod ua5
recorders: marantz stock671/oade acm671/fostex busman vintage fr2le

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Re: Hyper caps: What do your ears like?
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2005, 04:37:41 PM »
granted I havent USED the schoeps, but i have heard many many tapes with them as I was trying out different possibilities for gear...I had the dough to buy a set of schoeps, but I didnt like them as much as the MGs.  thats coming from a newcomer, but there was somehting that was missing from the scheops that I didnt like warmth..seemed brighter in the mid ranges... i dont know what it was, but i spent many long nights listening to tapes. and thats what i determined.what do you think the differences are sonically?I can describe sonic differences in singers or wind/string instruments,,,but im having a hard time describing PA sourced recordings. so i guess for me I notice frequencies from about 60-550 herz strongly..and seems to me that the schoeps have more brightness in those areas that are strong to me....if that makes sense.

MGs sounded perfect to me. they can keep the schoeps. ill take the u89sLD and MGs.



« Last Edit: August 19, 2005, 04:55:05 PM by BigRay »

Offline bkirby

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Re: Hyper caps: What do your ears like?
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2005, 05:03:20 PM »
I currently have the Schoeps MK41s and the MG210s. Personally, I prefer the MGs as they really have a smooth midrange (especially with the M148)! I like the Schoeps as they are very close to the MGs, but a slightly better low-end and a bit more open sounding, but lacking the mids of the MGs! I tend to like the V3 with the Schoeps and the M148>V3 with the MGS. For some reason, the low-end tends to get a bit sloppy with MK41>M148>V3.  I just wish the MGs had actives!

Just my $.02...

Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: Hyper caps: What do your ears like?
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2005, 05:09:47 PM »
483's haters :P :)
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Re: Hyper caps: What do your ears like?
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2005, 05:23:21 PM »
483's haters :P :)

you know bean back when i joined i was asking you what mics to look in to , you suggested 480s..I have about 20 or so shows made with various incarnations of that series...what ive heard from them, more than anything..is a BEAUTIFUL bass response,. but honestly , to my ears..not much else that made me perk up ..the 414s sound nice to me, but perhaps more to do with the fact that they are LDs and not so much the AKG part. so you need to let me use them to really get a feel for them. :)

Offline Brian

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Re: Hyper caps: What do your ears like?
« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2005, 06:03:02 PM »
only at ts.com would akg win this poll ;) :P

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Re: Hyper caps: What do your ears like?
« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2005, 08:53:42 AM »
and for hypers that dont cost $1500 per mic...
laugh away..but the Oktava mc-012 sound awesome.  best sounding cap out of the bunch.  I bet a dorsey mod set would be pretty fat....and compare favorably.

while I have heard sooo many mk41 recordings that smoke...and I voted it as my fav...I think the 483 sound is very pleasing...especialy over Carls tube system.
:)

Offline Tim

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Re: Hyper caps: What do your ears like?
« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2005, 02:01:49 PM »
I believe it was Darrin who said (paraphrasing), if you're in a spot where you need to run hypers you're in the wrong spot

Quote
When I'm desperate enough to need a directional mic

I like that ;D


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Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: Hyper caps: What do your ears like?
« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2005, 02:27:43 PM »
I believe it was Darrin who said (paraphrasing), if you're in a spot where you need to run hypers you're in the wrong spot

Yeah, that's a good point.  But at least in my case there are some venues where even if I'm in the sweet spot, the obnoxious blathering LOUD crowd will absolutely decimate the recording without the off-axis rejection hypers offer.  If my choices are between running cards (or a more open pattern) and hearing blathering crowd with a background of music, or hypers and hearing music with a background of blathering crowd, I'll go with hypers every time.
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Re: Hyper caps: What do your ears like?
« Reply #18 on: August 20, 2005, 02:54:46 PM »
a bit ot...but do hypers leave a gap in between the highs and lows, no mids...or would that be more of an attribute of XY.??.My BPB tape the other night was great.cept the mids were somewhat lacking...teddy

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Re: Hyper caps: What do your ears like?
« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2005, 03:13:04 PM »
thanks Mike.

+T

Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: Hyper caps: What do your ears like?
« Reply #20 on: August 20, 2005, 03:13:59 PM »
I don't hear this magical removal of obnoxiousness going on when using hypers. Its a little mysterious to me, but it seems to work for others :shrugs:

It isn't removal of obnoxiousness, it's a shift from forefront to background.
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Offline Brian

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Re: Hyper caps: What do your ears like?
« Reply #21 on: August 20, 2005, 03:59:28 PM »
moke - not as much as you think because the rear lobes cross each other creating somephase cancellation.  minimal, but noticeable IMHO

Offline dklein

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Re: Hyper caps: What do your ears like?
« Reply #22 on: August 20, 2005, 06:37:15 PM »
Here's something I scanned in from one of the mic books I read over the last few years.  I can't remember which one but it has a ton of info in a relatively simple looking picture.  Read the text slowly and carefully.  Then when you think you've got it...read it again.

Key points for this discussion:
rejecting sound from the rear and capturing from the front - hypers are best
rejecting ambient sound and capturing direct sound - super cards are best
capturing it all - omnis (of course)
capturing it all directly (minimizing side pickup) - fo8
and then you can stick the sub-card in between the omni and the card

This doesn't address any of the frequency characteristics associated with the different designs (i.e. depressed low frequency response on pressure gradient mics) or the off axis effect.

Anyways, thought someone may find it interesting.
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Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: Hyper caps: What do your ears like?
« Reply #23 on: August 21, 2005, 03:04:08 AM »
Same thing with happens with cards, thats where I get confused as to why to get more aggressive in a polar pattern.

I hear you, Moke.  But my experiences show me that the more directional the pattern, even shifting from cards to hypers (which is minimal, IMO, relative to shifting from hypers to shotguns), has a HUGE impact on cutting out obnoxious ambient noise.  The more aggressive pattern simply moves the chatterers further into the background unless they [1] overpower the desired sound source, and are [2] on-axis - of course, in which case it doesn't matter a hoot whether you're running cards or hypers.

And,... aren't you more prone to opening up the rear of the stereo pattern, with the hyper tails creating thier own little din pattern to the rear?

Theoretically, yes.  But IME the rear lobe is so small and relatively unsensitive compared to the front lobes, that I've never experience enough chatter from behind that I consider it a problem.  Chuck in the phase issues mentioned by others, and the rear lobe simply doesn't have a negative impact in my experience.

Still, from what I've heard of them,... ain't my cup of tea. I'm not trying to reshape the presented musical experience, just capture what was there sir, including all the bumps and grinds.

I completely understand where you're coming from.  But IME there are clear situations where running hypers instead of cards results in a listenable recording - though colored and not strictly representative of what I heard that night (thank goodness!) - instead of a recording that is so marred by blathering fools that it detracts so much from the music as to make the recording unlistenable to me.  A perfect example in Chicago is the Abbey Pub - it's one of the single most blathering venues I've ever been in.  And the only reason I can walk away with a recording in which I hear more music than crowd is with hypers.  The off-axis rejection simply does make that much of a difference for me.  Perhaps some of this comes down to differences in playback systems - maybe I'd hear less of a difference if I had a higher quality playback setup, like yours.  Hmmmmm...

some of y'all get alot more out of that slight polar pattern change than I could ever conceive of. :hmmm:

Yup, like in the Abbey Pub, as I mentioned above.  But I try not to run hypers unless I know I have to - because I do prefer a more open, natural sound.  I usually try run sub-cards and figure-8 as much as possible.  As long as that open, natural sound allows me re-live the music instead of the blathering crowd.

whenever I ran them, a chatterer was still a chatterer, was still a chatterer,..... pattern didn't seem to amke that big a diff, once I was away from omni and into directional mode.

Methinks it's been a while since you've been in a truly wretched performance space.  :P  I will never run anything but hypers ever again for ambient recordings in the Abbey Pub, because I know my results will suffer significantly if I run cards, and tremendously if I run sub-cards, omnis, or figure-8.
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Offline Xpanding Man

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Re: Hyper caps: What do your ears like?
« Reply #24 on: August 21, 2005, 02:13:17 PM »
i love the mk41's.  haven't heard too many MG hyper tapes but i've like those as well, but the schoeps a bit more.  I didn't like the neumann hypers at all.  bought them ran them a few times, sold them.  i found them to be kind of harsh.

agreed. The mk41's are my fav. nice bass response. the most versitile cap there is, imo.


seconded....the 41's are the only hypers that sound good on stage / FOB, as well as from the section....a very versatile cap indeed.
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Offline creekfreak

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Re: Hyper caps: What do your ears like?
« Reply #25 on: August 21, 2005, 03:37:46 PM »
love mky mk41's...but the pattern of the m41's is different from most hypers since its actually a super cadriod...
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Re: Hyper caps: What do your ears like?
« Reply #26 on: August 21, 2005, 03:39:55 PM »
love mky mk41's...but the pattern of the m41's is different from most hypers since its actually a super cadriod...

not sure if i understand why the label matters? 

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Re: Hyper caps: What do your ears like?
« Reply #27 on: August 21, 2005, 03:53:04 PM »
super cardiod has a slightly wider pick up pattern and smaller rear lobe...hence the reason people like the bass response in the mk41 over most other hypers, best I could find to show both was here...

http://homerecording.about.com/library/blpatterns2.htm
« Last Edit: August 21, 2005, 03:55:37 PM by creekfreak »
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Offline tadjblack

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Re: Hyper caps: What do your ears like?
« Reply #28 on: August 21, 2005, 08:22:59 PM »
483>148>apogee is very close to perfect for my ears
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Re: Hyper caps: What do your ears like?
« Reply #29 on: August 21, 2005, 08:27:07 PM »
483>148>apogee is very close to perfect for my ears

ditto

anything AKG > ? > apogee is 90% perfect.  the Oade pre just seals the deal.

Offline Kindguy

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Re: Hyper caps: What do your ears like?
« Reply #30 on: August 22, 2005, 01:10:13 PM »
483>148>apogee is very close to perfect for my ears

ditto

anything AKG > ? > apogee is 90% perfect.  the Oade pre just seals the deal.

This weekend I went through a bunch of recordings & this combo (consistently) blows away any other rig I've owned. Even a lot of the shit venues like, supper club ect, ect, sounded damn good.

I haven't ran my gefells long enough to compare them yet. Time will tell.
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Offline Kindguy

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Re: Hyper caps: What do your ears like?
« Reply #31 on: August 22, 2005, 01:31:40 PM »
Someone T - or + me. I'm not a big fan of the number of the beast.  ;)
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Re: Hyper caps: What do your ears like?
« Reply #32 on: August 22, 2005, 01:36:11 PM »
Someone T - or + me. I'm not a big fan of the number of the beast.  ;)

jeff....im still working on the 21 caps too. Ill keep you posted. BTW, please do let me know when the other package gets there.

teddy

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Re: Hyper caps: What do your ears like?
« Reply #33 on: August 22, 2005, 01:42:45 PM »
Someone T - or + me. I'm not a big fan of the number of the beast.  ;)

jeff....im still working on the 21 caps too. Ill keep you posted. BTW, please do let me know when the other package gets there.

teddy

where's my omni's?  ;)

 ;D ill keep my eyes peeled. gotta find my black market MG dealer. ;)

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Re: Hyper caps: What do your ears like?
« Reply #34 on: August 22, 2005, 01:55:49 PM »
Someone T - or + me. I'm not a big fan of the number of the beast.  ;)

jeff....im still working on the 21 caps too. Ill keep you posted. BTW, please do let me know when the other package gets there.

teddy

where's my omni's?  ;)

 ;D ill keep my eyes peeled. gotta find my black market MG dealer. ;)

everybody needs a set of omni's......................

yep. i really want to complete my set. have DPAs, but they wont work for rock music. want some that are a little more forgiving.

Offline Kindguy

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Re: Hyper caps: What do your ears like?
« Reply #35 on: August 22, 2005, 08:22:25 PM »
Thanks Ray. I still need to send you some discs in return.
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Re: Hyper caps: What do your ears like?
« Reply #36 on: August 22, 2005, 08:43:20 PM »
so you got the package Jeff?

Offline Kindguy

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Re: Hyper caps: What do your ears like?
« Reply #37 on: August 22, 2005, 08:50:41 PM »
No not yet.
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Offline tadjblack

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Re: Hyper caps: What do your ears like?
« Reply #38 on: August 22, 2005, 10:34:04 PM »
Someone T - or + me. I'm not a big fan of the number of the beast.  ;)
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Offline Swanny

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Re: Hyper caps: What do your ears like?
« Reply #39 on: August 23, 2005, 02:05:16 PM »
I find mk41's to be my fav, but I do like the AKGs as well. I have found that with hypers you still get crowd, but they are a little farther away from the source.
Schoeps MK5/8 > KC5 > CMC6> Oade M148/Aerco MP-2 > Mytek 24192 > Tascam dr-100 mkiii

Offline SonicSound

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Re: Hyper caps: What do your ears like?
« Reply #40 on: August 23, 2005, 04:26:46 PM »
I have only had 41's but I can say that I am really enjoying the MK41's with the M222/NT222 tubes. 
SD: Schoeps  M222/NT222's & CMC6's - MK 41V's, 21's, 5's, 8's
LD: Microtech Gefell UM900's, Shure KSM44's
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Offline BC

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Re: Hyper caps: What do your ears like?
« Reply #41 on: August 23, 2005, 05:55:30 PM »
I like hypers a little more than I like a shotgun.

do you like shotguns?

just slightly less than hypers ;)


Gotta say I am totally with Moke here, but since this is a hyper thread to begin with, my favorites in order are:

1) Schoeps MK41
2) Gefell M21
3) AKG CK63

In: DPA4022>V3>Microtracker/D8

Out: Morrison ELAD>Adcom GFA555mkII>Martin Logan Aerius i

 

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