Topic: Is there an ideal taping location?

[DMBFan920]

Hello everyone!

I have been an enjoyer of live audio recordings since 2000 and recently decided to join the tapers side. To say that I'm excited would be an understatement. Although I have an audio background, I wanted to ask the pros...

Is there any ideal location for taping?



I will be taping at the venue pictured and I'm wondering if back by the soundboard would be best or along one of the pillars on the side?

I know that the closer you are to the sound source the cleaner it would be, but I didn't know if a centered approach (from near the soundboard) would yield a better recording than off to the side.

Any ideas?

[dyneq]

Welcome! What is your gear setup?

[Gutbucket]

Yes. welcome to TS!

Ideal position in the room pictured above for a pair of mics alone would most likely be centered, halfway between the soundboard and stage.  But you probably can't do that (openly).  Second ideal position would be at the centered at the stage-lip or on-stage, but that might require combination with a soundboard feed if there are vocals or other instrumentation that is primarily only amplified through the PA system.

Recording from the soundboard location looks to be a bit far into the reverberant field, but may be the best practical bet.  That's a perfect scenario for use of the improved Point At Stacks method, which makes the best of a somewhat over-distant recording position with the use of directional microphones pointed directly at the PA speakers located on either side of the stage, combined with a spacing between the two microphones that is derived from whatever the angle between the microphones ends up being in that case.  The narrower the angle, the more spacing between the microphones.  You will need a microphone bar that allows for spacing adjustment.  Here's a link to the discussion thread about this which includes an easy to reference table of microphone pattern, angles and spacing that makes figuring that out easy- https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=167549.msg2087409#msg2087409 

Recording from the side is a gamble, but can work.  The better proximity can pay off in terms of greater clarity (or not) depending on the radiation pattern from the near-side PA, but the imaging may be lopsided in terms of the band on stage and the audience distribution.  If you do decide to record from there, or any off-center location, point the microphone array by ear, not by eye.  Don't point at the geometric stage center or the far side in an attempt to counteract the off center position, doing so will only aggravate the panning imbalance. Setup using your preferred microphone configuration (when far off center it can help to use less angle between microphones offset by somewhat more spacing between them than you might otherwise typically use) then close your eyes and turn the mic-stand to face toward the apparent center of the band once they start playing, regardless of whether that has the microphones pointing in a visually off-centered way.  Most likely you will find yourself facing more toward the close-side PA.

[Papaphunk]

I would post up adjacent to the SBD if they let you. Bring a friend to help protect your gear when you go for a beverage refresher or bathroom break.

[Scooter123]

Depending on your gear, what Gutbucket said.

Being in an equilateral triangle between the two stacks is generally the best location for sound and ambiance.  However, if you have omnis and there is a lot of crowd noise, sometimes standing right by the stacks gets one a noise free, although sterile sounding tape.  Its called a stack tape. 

[nulldogmas]

As others note, a lot of this is going to depend on 1) the type and volume of music, 2) the sound in the room, and 3) your mics.

If you're recording a loud band or one with a quiet crowd in a good-sounding room, you can get away with being back by the board. If everyone there is chatty and the band is one person with an acoustic guitar, you'll probably want to get closer.

If you have small mics you can mount on your shoulders or the sides of your head, you can get away with less distance between them than Gutbucket's otherwise-definitive instructions, since your head will provide some additional stereo separation. That can be a good option for going up closer ... though too close and you risk not getting enough sound from the PA, and being short on vocals...

[moondust.and.solitude]

I'm not trying to be silly, just stating some personal experiences, but anywhere drunks / loud talkers / off beat clappers and other assorted idiots are not located is my ideal taping section. I've not once had a tape ruined by a room or location, but I have had several ruined by the above mentioned idiots. So personally I like taping from the 1st row of balcony's and using cardioid, or hyper-cardioid, mics to capture what's in front of me and nothing to the sides or behind. It's just my preference of course. Also, I mainly stealth instead of open-tape.

[Scooter123]

Depending on the distance between the stacks and the balcony, I have experienced echo issues with a balcony location.  The greater distance between the balcony and the stacks, the more likely one will experience echo. 

[aaronji]

Is there any ideal location for taping?

Oftentimes, for open taping, it is wherever the venue is willing to let you set up your gear. Hopefully, that's also a location where you can protect the stand (and the precious cargo at it's top) a bit...

So personally I like taping from the 1st row of balcony's and using cardioid, or hyper-cardioid, mics to capture what's in front of me and nothing to the sides or behind. It's just my preference of course. Also, I mainly stealth instead of open-tape.

Even cards and hypers pick up stuff off axis.

[moondust.and.solitude]

Is there any ideal location for taping?

Oftentimes, for open taping, it is wherever the venue is willing to let you set up your gear. Hopefully, that's also a location where you can protect the stand (and the precious cargo at it's top) a bit...

So personally I like taping from the 1st row of balcony's and using cardioid, or hyper-cardioid, mics to capture what's in front of me and nothing to the sides or behind. It's just my preference of course. Also, I mainly stealth instead of open-tape.

Even cards and hypers pick up stuff off axis.

I understand. Like I stated a few times, just my preference. Yes, you are correct, I shouldn't have said "nothing to the sides and behind" but by design they eliminate a LOT more side/rear chatter than omni's do. No doubt.

[rigpimp]

Welcome to the cool kids club!

The answer to your first question is that there is ALWAYS an ideal spot to record from.  If fact, there are several depending on the sound you are really trying to reproduce.  My ideal spot is in front of the board and dead center or what I call the "mouth of the beast".  When you are standing in it your ears will know it. 

I'm not trying to be silly, just stating some personal experiences, but anywhere drunks / loud talkers / off beat clappers and other assorted idiots are not located is my ideal taping section.

This is a big ask in a post-COVID concert-going environment.  Many people feel over-entitled to talk over live music more than ever.

[moondust.and.solitude]

This is a big ask in a post-COVID concert-going environment.  Many people feel over-entitled to talk over live music more than ever.

I agree. I went to a show on Wednesday night and three ladies were talking as loud as possible so they could hear their conversation over the music for the majority of the concert. The strange thing is that 2 of the 3 had their backs turned towards the stage. Why would they even bother to spend the $300+ dollars for tickets (each) just to ignore the entertainment? I'm not talking down about them, but they would have had a much better conversation at a nice restaurant and saved a lot of money. Just seemed a bit odd to me. Strange world. I just have to accept that the other people attending aren't there to ensure I get a nice recording, so I just roll with the punches and try to adjust as much as possible.

[admkrk]

While, yes, you want to be in the best location, do not sweet it too much. I would rather be off in a corner than in the middle of chaos. In other words, the crowd can matter as much as the room. Not to mention venue limitations, as aaronji said. One show I set up in the OTS (handicap section, to the left) and moved between sets to my seat (Centered, but a little farther back), and it all sounds the same. While it sounded better live, there is little to no difference in the recording. If you are interested:
https://archive.org/details/paf2006-06-25.neumann.admkrk.35452.sbeok.flac16

I have gotten surprisingly good recordings under the balcony and good, if talkative, recordings sitting at the bar.

Your gear will make a bigger difference than your location.

[RyanJ]

I'm not trying to be silly, just stating some personal experiences, but anywhere drunks / loud talkers / off beat clappers and other assorted idiots are not located is my ideal taping section.

This is a big ask in a post-COVID concert-going environment.  Many people feel over-entitled to talk over live music more than ever.

I agree to all of this.

[daspyknows]

We can all agree talkers and whistlers suck.

The answers here are interesting.  I personally would be found next to Scooter or Rigpimp dead center FOB wearing my gear.  I don't own a stand so that's not an option.

[moondust.and.solitude]

We can all agree talkers and whistlers suck.

The answers here are interesting.  I personally would be found next to Scooter or Rigpimp dead center FOB wearing my gear.  I don't own a stand so that's not an option.

You get to be the stand. A human mic stand

[Chanher]

Getting close to the soundguy and thus ensuring a proper mix of the instruments in the recording has been more of a focus for me lately. This is assuming of course that the soundguy knows what he's doing. I've made the mistake of seeking a better, clearer sounding recording by either running onstage or getting close to a stack only for 1-2 elements of the band to be lacking in the mix and thus making it unlistenable IMO. If you or the band is definitely gonna want to listen to the recording then I'd take the safer route.

As mentioned before, walking around and using your ears to find a good sounding spot is a great habit to form. Hopefully you can do it for an opener. If it sounds sweet to your ears, it will probably sound sweet on the recording. Often I find myself close to the soundguy. Beware of talkers though, as previously mentioned.

[DMBFan920]

Wow, I'm overwhelmed by the responses here thus far. Thank you all so much!

For gear, I will run a pair of Line Audio CM4s on a stand plugged into a Tascam DR-40. I know it's not the top-of-the-line recorder, but I've used it countless times for other things and gotten great results. The mics and stand are my initial investment for just getting into taping. I'll upgrade to a better recorder in time.

From weighing all of the replies, it seems like back next to the sound guy may make sense. The music is singer-songwriter pop-rock stuff. So, likely some acoustic, but also rock. I plan on using an opening bands to as a test for how high to put the mics, and level setting, etc.

I can't thank you all, and TapersSection enough for all of the help. There's really nothing on YouTube so it's great to have a resource like this.

[if_then_else]

https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=91746.msg1551428#msg1551428

[DMBFan920]

https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=91746.msg1551428#msg1551428

Wow, you are awesome! I would have never thought of this or found this on my own. Thank you so much!

[morst]

Turner Hall is boomy, and it's in Milwaukee so you'll definitely get a drinking crowd!
Stack tape, MotB or a tall stand at the board are the options I've run there. Stack tapes had the least crowd by far.
Obviously you'd need permission for the tall stand, but if you have board access, you can make it work.


tall stand+ SBD feed night
https://archive.org/details/Moondoggies2010-11-13.matrix2448
https://archive.org/details/Dawes2010-11-13.matrix2448

[aaronji]

I understand. Like I stated a few times, just my preference. Yes, you are correct, I shouldn't have said "nothing to the sides and behind" but by design they eliminate a LOT more side/rear chatter than omni's do. No doubt.

The distance factor for cards and hypers are 1.7 and 2. No doubt a substantial reduction in off-axis sound compared to omnis, but not nearly as much as people often assume. There are no magic bullets. Plus, there are always trade-offs with every polar pattern; they all have their strengths and weaknesses (and not just in terms of pick-up/rejection angles). Those big hyper lobes at 180°, for example, will reject a lot less to the rear than cardioids...

[moondust.and.solitude]

My placement of mics and the use of cardioid's does the trick for me. Many times I have been surprised by very talkative people thinking that the show would be inundated with their discussions to find out later the mics didn't pick them up at all. I'm a big fan of spec sheets and the like, but the real test was a lot of trial and error until I found what works best for my use.

It's a good discussion 

[Gutbucket]

The recorder you are using is fine for the job.  It just needs to work properly.  The mics are the most important part of the gear-chain, in combination with how you set them up, and most fundamentally, where.  If you can get away with it, increased height above the audience will often help significantly when people are talkative, but be careful not to go so high as to position the microphones above the high-frequency radiation pattern of the PA - it may sound perfect at head height but dull and reverberant above a certain height limit.

[...]walking around and using your ears to find a good sounding spot is a great habit to form. Hopefully you can do it for an opener. If it sounds sweet to your ears, it will probably sound sweet on the recording. Often I find myself close to the soundguy.

^This.

A hierarchy of recording location constraints-
1) What the band will allow you to do.
2) What the venue will allow you to do.
3) What you are comfortable with managing.
4) What the variables involved with the PA setup and mixing dictate.
5) What the acoustics of the room dictate.

My earlier post on optimal recording location suggestions only addresses the last couple entries in the above list.

Regarding my earlier suggestions, don't het hung up about the spacing between mics too much, it's the last thing to worry about, more a "nice to have" icing on the cake and simply the next logical step which follows the more important aspect of making the most of whatever direct-sound/reverberant-ambient-audience-sound ratio you are dealing with (determined in turn by the even more important aspect of recording location) by directing the most-sensitive on-axis part of the microphone's directional pattern toward the primary PA and on-stage sound sources.

Record from where you can get away with doing so, where you are comfortable managing it, and where sounds best, and then if possible configure your rig to make the most of that situation, to whatever extent you are comfortable with.

[DMBFan920]

Thanks for that! Any tips on how to get mic spacing/aim set properly? Is it trial and error during an opener? Or is there a way to set it without listening?

[Gutbucket]

Wandering around and listening is the only assured way to really know the acoustic sweet spots.  Otherwise its an educated guess, which is what most of use here are making except for morst who makes great tapes, knows that room and has recorded there before.  Take the suggestions in his post above for that place, he's already heard the room and made the best of it. Choose a recording position based on that, where you are allowed to setup, and whatever you are comfortable with managing.

Use whatever stereo microphone configuration you prefer and are comfortable with. The stereo mic config I think will work best is to point the mics at the PA stacks. That automatically sets up an angle between mics that depends on how far away you are.  Next set the spacing between mics based off that angle.  Best way to do that is to refer to the improved PAS table with the angle you just ended up with and the polar pattern of the mics - it suggests an optimal spacing.  Get as close to the suggested spacing as you can and don't sweat it if you can't, just keep the mics pointed at the PA.
^
You can do all this without listening.

When the band comes on, check to make sure everything is working, and levels are good. Then stand and close your eyes and point (mentally or physically) at the apparent center of the sound from the stage, ignoring lights and the fact that you know were the stage is.  Carefully rotate the mic stand so as to point the center of the microphone array in that direction.  That's its. You're set. Enjoy the show.

[moondust.and.solitude]

When the band comes on, check to make sure everything is working, and levels are good. Then stand and close your eyes and point (mentally or physically) at the apparent center of the sound from the stage, ignoring lights and the fact that you know were the stage is.  Carefully rotate the mic stand so as to point the center of the microphone array in that direction.  That's its. You're set. Enjoy the show.

This is AMAZING!!!  I never thought of that trick and it's simply spot on. Wow. The talent on this site is just mind blowing. Thanks again Gutbucket for all your knowledge!

[if_then_else]

Sometimes, it's also worth watching the local FoH engineer during the soundcheck or the opening act.

Because they're often assessing the sound in a specific spot, which is essentially the spot they're mixing for.

[morst]

.  If you can get away with it, increased height above the audience will often help significantly when people are talkative, but be careful not to go so high as to position the microphones above the high-frequency radiation pattern of the PA - it may sound perfect at head height but dull and reverberant above a certain height limit.

Excellent point.
At Turner Hall, I was happy with the tall stand at the board, because the room is long enough that the flown PA has to throw past the FoH mix position to cover the back of the room.
But if, for instance, you were in a different room with the FoH mix site near the back wall, and no balcony, the PA speakers really might not extend treble response much over the height of the mix engineer's ears! Placing the mics above this threshold really could result in the "dull but reverberant" sound that Gutbucket mentions.

[bonghitwillie]

alot of venues hang the spkrs so it is hard to get close to them. if the stage has front fills, that is the place to be. there is one venue i have been to many times. it is a seated venue. last time i was there no one sat in the front row center seats. during the headline act first song i moved to those seats. they had front fills under the stage that you could only hear at that location that sounded unbelievable. you never would have known unless you sat there.

[Gutbucket]

^That can be an ideal taper position, essentially stage lip, providing stack-tape clarity of the PA content supporting good lively on-stage dynamics and depth, with audience reaction behind you.  However it can be a bit of a gamble as it is often uncertain beforehand what if anything will be in that fill and its level, depending on how necessary that content is to a balanced recording.

[morst]

alot of venues hang the spkrs so it is hard to get close to them.

Oh yeah I should clarify that Turner Hall did have in-fill speakers placed on each side of the stage, and THAT was where I chose to "stack" it back in '08

Turner Hall is boomy, and it's in Milwaukee so you'll definitely get a drinking crowd! Stack tape, MotB or a tall stand at the board are the options I've run there. Stack tapes had the least crowd by far.

[opsopcopolis]

often uncertain beforehand what if anything will be in that fill and its level

agreed that this can be a big gamble. Been to plenty shows where there were front fills that weren't used, so I usually wouldn't aim up there unless it's a band I'd otherwise be ok with stage taping anyway.

[Top Hat]

Board + Stage ORTF (Cards) if allowed and band not using in ears, or in the sound cage using the production area as a quiet bubble get the mics up high like 10-12ft. If the venue is ok with it...run a stealth rig clamped to the light rigging there mics dropped a couple feet below. This would require a ladder or lft, I have done this before but knew the GM and PM of the venue there was also a ladder at the venue...most will have them.

[loughney]

Adding my two cents (or is it sense) ... ideal varies on the band, the venue and the crowd (and the bar).  For a respectful crowd in a not overfull room, center of room.  For a loud crowd, I move forward. If there's a big mosh pit, I will take several giant steps back.  Some venues will have a side bar or back bar, and I try to make sure the bar is as behind me as possible.