Topic: best DVD-audio software?

[nickgregory]

the problem is how the unit handles the format and the fact that while DVD-A is a standard, that not every authoring program handles it the same.

And lets add another layer to this...the players that do not exhibit this issue, regardless of the authoring program are higher end....so I do believe components, firmware and qualty all impact the samsung and toshiba units...

[scb]

Why do you guys keep suspecting the buffering on the Samsung and Toshiba players?  I agree that buffer handling is a possible culprit, but what facts make you suspect buffering in the HD841 or 4960?

Here's the facts as I understand them:

1) ISO images prepared with DVD-Audiophile do not play on a Samsung HD841 or a Toshiba 4960 without gaps.
2) ISO images prepared with Wavelab 5.0a play properly on a Samsung HD841 or Toshiba 4960 if you add pictures.
3) ISO images prepared with DVD-Audio Solo 1.1 play properly on a Samsung HD841 or Toshiba 4960, without gaps.
4) No one on recent threads has said whether ISO images prepared with discWelder play properly on a Samsung HD841 or Toshiba 4960, without gaps.
5) Other players such as the Denon 220 and Pioneer Elite DV-45a play DVD-Audio discs, regardless of which of the above programs were used

These facts could imply that there's something wrong with the Samsung HD841 and Toshiba 4690 players.  They could also imply that there's something wrong with DVD-Audiophile (or its underlying program, DVD-Audio Tools), but that most players are tolerant of the error.

wavelab and discwelder have gaps on those players.  it's not just dvda-author

yet all 3 are fine on other players

maybe your DVD-Audo Solo puts a blank picture track and that's why your player is ok with that, becuase a picture track is handled differently

could it be that dvda-author is broken?  maybe, though he's written code according to specs without gaps.  but if it's broken, so is wavelab and discwelder

that's why i'm inclined to believe it's something specific to your player.  i find it much easier to believe that a few players are broken than only a few are correct and every other one is broken.  but again, i don't know

[SparkE!]

wavelab and discwelder have gaps on those players.  it's not just dvda-author

yet all 3 are fine on other players

Or maybe those other players are tolerant of files that are not strictly compliant to the DVD-A spec?

maybe your DVD-Audo Solo puts a blank picture track and that's why your player is ok with that, becuase a picture track is handled differently

Can anyone confirm whether or not there are files on a DVD-Audio Solo disk other than these:

AUDIO_PP.IFO
AUDIO_TS.IFO
AUDIO_TS.BUP
ATS_01_0.IFO
ATS_01_1.AOB
ATS_01_0.BUP

(Paging dueling...)
I plan to try DVD-Audio Solo, but have not done so yet.  Hopefully someone else can confirm if there are files other than these on their DVD-A discs that are authored with DVD-Audio Solo.

could it be that dvda-author is broken?  maybe, though he's written code according to specs without gaps.  but if it's broken, so is wavelab and discwelder

that's why i'm inclined to believe it's something specific to your player.  i find it much easier to believe that a few players are broken than only a few are correct and every other one is broken.  but again, i don't know

I find it quite easy to believe that most players are tolerant of errors.  For instance, the DVD-Audio Tools web site has this to say:

Experiments have shown that a "smart" DVD-Audio player (i.e. a combined Audio/Video player) does not appear to use the AUDIO_PP.IFO file for playback. i.e. an AUDIO_TS directory can be relocated (without modification) to any part of the disk and still be playable in a hardware player - as long as the files are written contiguously and in the correct order.

This implies that you could omit the AUDIO_PP.IFO or get its format completely wrong and the disc would still work in most DVD players that are specified to play DVD-A discs.

And you're right. It could be that the fault lies with these particular models of players.  However, until we know what's on the DVD-A's that work in either a Samsung HD841 or a Toshiba 4960 and what's different about the DVD-A's that don't work, we shouldn't pin the blame on the players.

For what it's worth, I'm finding it easier and easier to believe that the difference is picture files or their absence.  That aspect of this discussion seems to have little ambiguity.  Also note that DVD-Audio Solo features the capability to add pictures (which may explain why it works).  If that's all it takes, I'll spend my time trying to figure out how to add picture files to a DVD-Audiofile disc.  Then nickgregory can impress his woman with gapless DVD-A playback in the bedroom where he now keeps his HD841 paperweight.

[nickgregory]

I will give you this you have persistence.  I was (and still am) willing to write the HD841 up to being a consumer good, you "get what you pay for" scenario.  Regardless, good luck, hope you figure it out.

[scb]

Experiments have shown that a "smart" DVD-Audio player (i.e. a combined Audio/Video player) does not appear to use the AUDIO_PP.IFO file for playback. i.e. an AUDIO_TS directory can be relocated (without modification) to any part of the disk and still be playable in a hardware player - as long as the files are written contiguously and in the correct order.

This implies that you could omit the AUDIO_PP.IFO or get its format completely wrong and the disc would still work in most DVD players that are specified to play DVD-A discs.

The key words there are as long as the files are written contiguously and in the correct order..  The files need to be sorted correctly and written in that order on the disc.  If they aren't, they won't play. 


But again, i really don't know what's causing your issue.  It might simply be that everyone implements the spec differently in their players, because the actual "final" spec is relatively new (but companies were implementing their own versions of it before it was finalized)

[Nick's Picks]

i've been using dvd-audiofile for a while now, and its gapless on my deck.  100% perfect in fact.

[dueling]

Can anyone confirm whether or not there are files on a DVD-Audio Solo disk other than these:

AUDIO_PP.IFO
AUDIO_TS.IFO
AUDIO_TS.BUP
ATS_01_0.IFO
ATS_01_1.AOB
ATS_01_0.BUP

(Paging dueling...)
I plan to try DVD-Audio Solo, but have not done so yet.  Hopefully someone else can confirm if there are files other than these on their DVD-A discs that are authored with DVD-Audio Solo.

I'll take a look at the DVD-Audio Solo discs and get back to you guys on this later today.

[dueling]

Can anyone confirm whether or not there are files on a DVD-Audio Solo disk other than these:

AUDIO_PP.IFO
AUDIO_TS.IFO
AUDIO_TS.BUP
ATS_01_0.IFO
ATS_01_1.AOB
ATS_01_0.BUP

(Paging dueling...)
I plan to try DVD-Audio Solo, but have not done so yet.  Hopefully someone else can confirm if there are files other than these on their DVD-A discs that are authored with DVD-Audio Solo.

I'll take a look at the DVD-Audio Solo discs and get back to you guys on this later today.

I just created a new .iso file with DVD-Audio Solo, then used Magic ISO Maker to verify what is in the .iso file...

Audio_TS folder:
ATS_01_0.BUP
ATS_01_0.IFO
ATS_01_1.AOB
ATS_01_2.AOB
ATS_01_3.AOB
AUDIO_PP.IFO
AUDIO_SV.BUP
AUDIO_SV.IFO
AUDIO_SV.VOB
AUDIO_TS.BUP
AUDIO_TS.BUP

VIDEO_TS folder:
(empty)

There is also a DATA folder that contains a text file named "ALBUMDES.TXT", which looks to be a log file.  When I view that log file it shows this:

--- Group 1 ---
TRACK 1 : tlg2006-01-12s1t01.wav   D:\shn downloads\shn\tlg2006-01-12.flac24\tlg2006-01-12s1t01.wav
   48Khz/24bits, 2 channels, 467 sec
TRACK 2 : tlg2006-01-12s1t02.wav   D:\shn downloads\shn\tlg2006-01-12.flac24\tlg2006-01-12s1t02.wav
   48Khz/24bits, 2 channels, 368 sec
TRACK 3 : tlg2006-01-12s1t03.wav   D:\shn downloads\shn\tlg2006-01-12.flac24\tlg2006-01-12s1t03.wav
   48Khz/24bits, 2 channels, 250 sec
TRACK 4 : tlg2006-01-12s1t04.wav   D:\shn downloads\shn\tlg2006-01-12.flac24\tlg2006-01-12s1t04.wav
   48Khz/24bits, 2 channels, 263 sec
TRACK 5 : tlg2006-01-12s1t05.wav   D:\shn downloads\shn\tlg2006-01-12.flac24\tlg2006-01-12s1t05.wav
   48Khz/24bits, 2 channels, 345 sec
TRACK 6 : tlg2006-01-12s1t06.wav   D:\shn downloads\shn\tlg2006-01-12.flac24\tlg2006-01-12s1t06.wav
   48Khz/24bits, 2 channels, 434 sec
TRACK 7 : tlg2006-01-12s1t07.wav   D:\shn downloads\shn\tlg2006-01-12.flac24\tlg2006-01-12s1t07.wav
   48Khz/24bits, 2 channels, 270 sec
TRACK 8 : tlg2006-01-12s1t08.wav   D:\shn downloads\shn\tlg2006-01-12.flac24\tlg2006-01-12s1t08.wav
   48Khz/24bits, 2 channels, 272 sec
TRACK 9 : tlg2006-01-12s1t09.wav   D:\shn downloads\shn\tlg2006-01-12.flac24\tlg2006-01-12s1t09.wav
   48Khz/24bits, 2 channels, 208 sec
TRACK 10 : tlg2006-01-12s1t10.wav   D:\shn downloads\shn\tlg2006-01-12.flac24\tlg2006-01-12s1t10.wav
   48Khz/24bits, 2 channels, 507 sec
TRACK 11 : tlg2006-01-12s1t11.wav   D:\shn downloads\shn\tlg2006-01-12.flac24\tlg2006-01-12s1t11.wav
   48Khz/24bits, 2 channels, 37 sec
TRACK 12 : tlg2006-01-12s1t12.wav   D:\shn downloads\shn\tlg2006-01-12.flac24\tlg2006-01-12s1t12.wav
   48Khz/24bits, 2 channels, 574 sec
TRACK 13 : tlg2006-01-12s2t01.wav   D:\shn downloads\shn\tlg2006-01-12.flac24\tlg2006-01-12s2t01.wav
   48Khz/24bits, 2 channels, 384 sec
TRACK 14 : tlg2006-01-12s2t02.wav   D:\shn downloads\shn\tlg2006-01-12.flac24\tlg2006-01-12s2t02.wav
   48Khz/24bits, 2 channels, 399 sec
TRACK 15 : tlg2006-01-12s2t03.wav   D:\shn downloads\shn\tlg2006-01-12.flac24\tlg2006-01-12s2t03.wav
   48Khz/24bits, 2 channels, 257 sec
TRACK 16 : tlg2006-01-12s2t04.wav   D:\shn downloads\shn\tlg2006-01-12.flac24\tlg2006-01-12s2t04.wav
   48Khz/24bits, 2 channels, 574 sec
TRACK 17 : tlg2006-01-12s2t05.wav   D:\shn downloads\shn\tlg2006-01-12.flac24\tlg2006-01-12s2t05.wav
   48Khz/24bits, 2 channels, 422 sec
TRACK 18 : tlg2006-01-12s2t06.wav   D:\shn downloads\shn\tlg2006-01-12.flac24\tlg2006-01-12s2t06.wav
   48Khz/24bits, 2 channels, 268 sec
TRACK 19 : tlg2006-01-12s2t07.wav   D:\shn downloads\shn\tlg2006-01-12.flac24\tlg2006-01-12s2t07.wav
   48Khz/24bits, 2 channels, 580 sec
TRACK 20 : tlg2006-01-12s2t08.wav   D:\shn downloads\shn\tlg2006-01-12.flac24\tlg2006-01-12s2t08.wav
   48Khz/24bits, 2 channels, 455 sec
TRACK 21 : tlg2006-01-12s2t09.wav   D:\shn downloads\shn\tlg2006-01-12.flac24\tlg2006-01-12s2t09.wav
   48Khz/24bits, 2 channels, 520 sec
TRACK 22 : tlg2006-01-12s2t10.wav   D:\shn downloads\shn\tlg2006-01-12.flac24\tlg2006-01-12s2t10.wav
   48Khz/24bits, 2 channels, 162 sec
TRACK 23 : tlg2006-01-12s2t11.wav   D:\shn downloads\shn\tlg2006-01-12.flac24\tlg2006-01-12s2t11.wav
   48Khz/24bits, 2 channels, 442 sec

Do you also want me to look at what is on the DVD-A after the image is burned?

[scb]

I just created a new .iso file with DVD-Audio Solo, then used Magic ISO Maker to verify what is in the .iso file...

Audio_TS folder:
ATS_01_0.BUP
ATS_01_0.IFO
ATS_01_1.AOB
ATS_01_2.AOB
ATS_01_3.AOB
AUDIO_PP.IFO
AUDIO_SV.BUP
AUDIO_SV.IFO
AUDIO_SV.VOB
AUDIO_TS.BUP
AUDIO_TS.BUP

VIDEO_TS folder:
(empty)

VOB files are video data.  since you said

AUDIO_SV.BUP
AUDIO_SV.IFO
AUDIO_SV.VOB

are there, this app did put picture/video content in.  did you tell it to?  if not, it's juts putting blank picture content in. 

i might be able to add blank picture content to the authoring process of dvd-audiofile...i'll have to check into the format of those and see how to author

[SparkE!]

Scott, you beat me to it.  Yes, the "SV" part of the  "AUDIO_SV" file names stands for "Still Video".  And I agree that the easiest hack to provide compatibility with the cheap DVD-A players may be to add dummy picture files.  It could be a logo for your DVD-Audiofile program.   Of course, it would be nice to be able to specify a whole series of pics that would play, but that would obviously be more work.

So, the common theme seems to be that if you add picture files, everything will work, regardless of what program was used to author the DVD-A.

By the way, while I was reading up on this, I ran across some discussion on the Cubase formus about Wavelab's treatment of the AUDIO_SV.IFO and AUDIO_SV.BUP files which are required to be exactly 4k in length.  Apparently Wavelab 5.1a makes them only 2k in length and it causes problems if you want to send an image to a production house.  I guess most players will tolerate these files when they are only 2k in length, but it does not conform to the DVD-A spec.  Here's a link to the discussion:

http://cubase.net/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=5817&view=next&sid=f1da3f34cdc19509db8382056e1243eb

[dueling]

I just created a new .iso file with DVD-Audio Solo, then used Magic ISO Maker to verify what is in the .iso file...

Audio_TS folder:
ATS_01_0.BUP
ATS_01_0.IFO
ATS_01_1.AOB
ATS_01_2.AOB
ATS_01_3.AOB
AUDIO_PP.IFO
AUDIO_SV.BUP
AUDIO_SV.IFO
AUDIO_SV.VOB
AUDIO_TS.BUP
AUDIO_TS.BUP

VIDEO_TS folder:
(empty)

VOB files are video data.  since you said

AUDIO_SV.BUP
AUDIO_SV.IFO
AUDIO_SV.VOB

are there, this app did put picture/video content in.  did you tell it to?  if not, it's juts putting blank picture content in. 

i might be able to add blank picture content to the authoring process of dvd-audiofile...i'll have to check into the format of those and see how to author

I went back into the settings of DVD-Audio Solo and found that it had a default checked off for "Still Pictures" set to "on".  And the default path was this:

C:\Program Files\Cirlinca\DVD-Audio Solo\DefaultStillPict.jpg

So yes, I think I did tell the program to put a picture in.  I guess I could try to burn another without this setting on and see if I still have gapless playback.

[SparkE!]

I went back into the settings of DVD-Audio Solo and found that it had a default checked off for "Still Pictures" set to "on".  And the default path was this:

C:\Program Files\Cirlinca\DVD-Audio Solo\DefaultStillPict.jpg

So yes, I think I did tell the program to put a picture in.  I guess I could try to burn another without this setting on and see if I still have gapless playback.

I'd be very interested to know whether you get gapless playback without the Still Pictures set to On.  If it breaks when you turn that off, then that would lend more credibility to the notion that the bug only occurs when there are no pics.

[SparkE!]

Dang it, Scott!  I've been misspelling the name of your program and no one said anything.  Sorry about that. (My previous posts have been edited to spell it right, but quotes of those posts are, of course, still wrong.)

It's DVD-Audiofile, not DVD-Audiophile.

[dueling]

I went back into the settings of DVD-Audio Solo and found that it had a default checked off for "Still Pictures" set to "on".  And the default path was this:

C:\Program Files\Cirlinca\DVD-Audio Solo\DefaultStillPict.jpg

So yes, I think I did tell the program to put a picture in.  I guess I could try to burn another without this setting on and see if I still have gapless playback.

I'd be very interested to know whether you get gapless playback without the Still Pictures set to On.  If it breaks when you turn that off, then that would lend more credibility to the notion that the bug only occurs when there are no pics.

Update on DVD-Audio Solo... I authored a DVD-A with the Still Pictures setting turned off, and get gaps between tracks during playback on my Tosh4960.

[scb]

Dang it, Scott!  I've been misspelling the name of your program and no one said anything.  Sorry about that. (My previous posts have been edited to spell it right, but quotes of those posts are, of course, still wrong.)

It's DVD-Audiofile, not DVD-Audiophile.

hah..no biggie