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Gear / Technical Help => Microphones & Setup => Topic started by: manitouman on July 27, 2007, 10:11:22 PM
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My eyes are drying out I've been reading so many different opinions about different mic/pre-amp setups. I think I will (unless someone persuades me otherwise) get the Church-Audio 9100 pre-amp with the switchable 4.7k mod for acoustic and loud rock concerts. That feature really appeals to me and would suit my recording needs. But the mics I'm still not sure about. I've seen great reviews for Church-Audio's mics but have also heard great things about SP-CMC-8 mics from Sound Professionals and still great reviews about other mics.
Here's the deal: I record using a Microtrack and did have a pair of CSB with the batt. box. I recorded great shows outdoors (Black Crowes @ Red Rocks '05 and TOOL @ Coors Amphitheater '05 both 24-bit sources torrented) but hollow sounding shows in enclosed venues. So I would consider a good mic set that could do both types of recordings, two sets of mics-one for outdoors and another for indoors, or a set that has interchangeable caps-again one set of caps for each recording purpose. And I am open to suggestions about the 9100 pre-amp or other products. I still want to use the Microtrack and record in stealth-the less I have to sneak in the better. And I usually record loud rock concerts. I have a budget of $1000-$1200, but that has to cover everything but the MT which I already have.
I really appreciate all the expertise at this site so that's why my money is in your hands. Thanks in advance for any and all help!!
amaro
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With that budget you should be able to get a really good setup especially since you already have your bitbucket.
You mention stealth. If that's your priority and you want interchangeable caps, then the AT-853 based mics from Soundprofessionals are your best bet because you can get all the capsules. Sound great for such a small set of mics.
If sound quality is your priority and versatility is not the highest priority, then the DPA mini microphones (Sorry I can't remember the model number but they're the ones that the Core Sounds High End Binarals are based on) are stated to be just absolute cream puffs. You're not gonna have interchangeable capsules with these mics though.
For $1200, you may wish to consider expanding your horizons a bit. You could go ahead and get your stealth rig and go with the Chruch preamp with the 853 mics with a couple of sets of capsules and you'd have something like 700 or 800 leftover. For that amount, you could buy a pair of pretty decent sounding non-stealth microphones, such as the Avantone CK-1 microphones, Octava MC-012, or Studio Project C-4 (all in the $300 or so range for a pair, but the CK-1s come with several capsules as well and sound GREAT) and still have money leftover for a decent preamp, like a modded UA-5 or a Denecke. This would give you a range of options for both open and stealth taping with your budget.
Now, some might not consider the above the best way to go because they might consider that route diluting the purchasing power of the quality that you could buy with $1200. If you wanted to sink it ALL into a stealth rig, you could certainly get a very nice quality stealth rig for that. ORRRR is you wanted to sink all of that into an open rig, then you could upgrade from the suggestions made above. For example, for that money, you could buy a set of Pelusos or Josephson C-42s ($600 to $700 range) which would provide you with STELLAR sounding recordings in open recording sitations if paired with a nicer quality preamp.
For open taping, don't forget to save about $100 in your budget for decent quality cables because crappy cables can choke the sound quality of a decent quality setup a little bit.
Hope this helps.
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i agree with the above
but would add AKG 39x series in there as an option
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I primarily will be stealthing but you have certainly intrigued me with those Avantone CK-1's. But the truth of the matter is I stealth a lot more than I would open record. Here are my upcoming shows:
Dave Matthews Band @ The Gorge Amphitheater (3 nights)
Black Crowes @ Red Rocks Sept. 9th
Smashing Pumpkins @ Red Rocks Sept. 30th
These are both great venues with the possibility to have a great recording of all shows. I know DMB allows open taping and thats why you have me looking at the Avantone's for that purpose. Black Crowes are iffy at best. I seen a guy have a lot of trouble getting in his gear last year but did finally succeed but had to set up behind the sound man. I've got row 5 tickets, the general admission is at the top for this show. And I'm not sure about the taping policy for the Pumpkins, I've heard they are open taping so that would make good on getting the open mics in addition to the stealth mics. I have general admission for Pumpkins but the first 20 rows are GA.
Question, which caps would work for outdoor situations? indoor situations? For example with the Sound Professional mics you can choose between: omnidirectional, cardioid, hypercardioid and mini-shotgun. Another question...what is high SPL power option mean? Ultra high SPL option? Will this be necessary with the Church preamp?
In regards to the Avantone's which caps would suit my needs for outdoor recording? indoor?
I tried Core Sounds HEB mics with the DPA 4061 and I hope I don't offend anyone but they sounded like the Core Sound Binaurals that I already had. I tried them at a Godsmack concert on Tuesday (for testing purposes and the 30-day trial period) and really, didn't sound any different than what I've been using. I thought that they would be much better considering the cost. I've heard a Chris Cornell recording with Core Sound Stealthy Cardioids that sounded really good. Oh, and the Godsmack show was indoors in a small venue and so was the C Cornell show that I heard. And it doesn't seem to matter too much where in the venue I am when recording with the CSB indoors it still sounds the same to me, really hollow. The singing/talking is clear but the actual music kind of plays at a lower volume way in the back. I almost just broke down and bought another set of CSB for outdoor recording and a set of the Stealthy Card's for indoor recording. But then I was pointed in this direction and didn't realize there were so many options. I want what I can afford but not sacrifice too much on quality. If I'm going to tape it I want others to enjoy it as much as I do.
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I primarily will be stealthing but you have certainly intrigued me with those Avantone CK-1's. But the truth of the matter is I stealth a lot more than I would open record. Here are my upcoming shows:
Dave Matthews Band @ The Gorge Amphitheater (3 nights)
Black Crowes @ Red Rocks Sept. 9th
Smashing Pumpkins @ Red Rocks Sept. 30th
These are both great venues with the possibility to have a great recording of all shows. I know DMB allows open taping and thats why you have me looking at the Avantone's for that purpose. Black Crowes are iffy at best. I seen a guy have a lot of trouble getting in his gear last year but did finally succeed but had to set up behind the sound man. I've got row 5 tickets, the general admission is at the top for this show. And I'm not sure about the taping policy for the Pumpkins, I've heard they are open taping so that would make good on getting the open mics in addition to the stealth mics. I have general admission for Pumpkins but the first 20 rows are GA.
Not sure about the Pumpkins, but the Crowes have always been open taping to my knowledge. I saw them back about 5 years ago in an indoor venue and I remember seeing mics stands all over the place.
Honestly, once you get into taping, what I've found is that I gravitate more and more to the bands that support tapers. I find therefore that I have far less need for stealth than I thought I would when I first got into this hobby.
This stuff gets in your blood and becomes a part of who you are. When someone doesn't support the live taper, I personally have found myself just less apt to be interested in going. Maybe that's just me, but my motivation to see a show is so much higher if I know that the band allows taping. I think that effect happens to others also.
Course, I also have to admit that I am generally NOT a fan of seeing any band in an arena situation, which generally means the more popular acts. I've seen too many shows that sound like shit to pay big bucks for a show that I can't hardly hear. I'd rather pay $2 and hear a blues cover band because I will enjoy it more knowing that my money hasn't been wasted.
Question, which caps would work for outdoor situations? indoor situations? For example with the Sound Professional mics you can choose between: omnidirectional, cardioid, hypercardioid and mini-shotgun. Another question...what is high SPL power option mean? Ultra high SPL option? Will this be necessary with the Church preamp?
For indoor, the boomier the room, the more you want to run hypers. For outdoor, cardiods are accepted as the best option but some people say that also depends on how far back you'll be. They say if you're back a ways, go with hypers. Omnis would work best in an indoor situation where you know the acoustics of the room will be really nice and you'd like to capture that ambient sound...such as an acoustic show when there might not be much audience noise.
The 853 mics tend to overload easily. They sound great, but they're notorious for brickwalling at relatively low volumes. The high SPL option offered by Sound Pros offers you some insurnace against this happening. This option I understand will cover you for most of the club type shows that you'd see. For the Ultra High SPL option the mics won't distort in just about any situation you can throw at it including standing dead in front of the PA at a loud rock show. I guess the tradeoff is that you lose a bit of warmth in the sound with each increase in SPL option.
Regarding whether they are necessary with the Church preamp, I've heard no, but you should PM chris church directly and he'll be able to tell you. Chris is an active member of TS.com and will be happy to answer your questions better than I can about what he sells. I know that he has many many happy customers on this list.
In regards to the Avantone's which caps would suit my needs for outdoor recording? indoor?
See above. The Avantones come standard with I believe Omni, Cards, and Hypers.
I tried Core Sounds HEB mics with the DPA 4061 and I hope I don't offend anyone but they sounded like the Core Sound Binaurals that I already had. I tried them at a Godsmack concert on Tuesday (for testing purposes and the 30-day trial period) and really, didn't sound any different than what I've been using. I thought that they would be much better considering the cost. I've heard a Chris Cornell recording with Core Sound Stealthy Cardioids that sounded really good. Oh, and the Godsmack show was indoors in a small venue and so was the C Cornell show that I heard. And it doesn't seem to matter too much where in the venue I am when recording with the CSB indoors it still sounds the same to me, really hollow. The singing/talking is clear but the actual music kind of plays at a lower volume way in the back. I almost just broke down and bought another set of CSB for outdoor recording and a set of the Stealthy Card's for indoor recording. But then I was pointed in this direction and didn't realize there were so many options. I want what I can afford but not sacrifice too much on quality. If I'm going to tape it I want others to enjoy it as much as I do.
Hmmm, if you weren't happy with the HEB or DPA test, then I don't know what to tell you. I've heard that those are the cream of the stealthy microphone crop. Having said that, when I first started, I owned CSBs and when I went to the SP-CMC-4 I thought there was a night and day difference. I thought the AT-853 based mics sounded light years better than the CSBs. I've also heard that Chris's microphones sound great. Now that I've gone from the SP-CMC-4 to a regular sized microphone, I can't go back to the AT-853s.
If I were you, I'd give some thought to what I said above about how your future recording tendencies may change if you invest upwards of $1200 into a recording rig. It's not a coincidence, I don't think that many people on this forum move away from stealth recording. I don't think it has so much to do with our need to always get the best sounding recordings, but more that your listening habits tend to change as you jump into this hobby with both feet because of your tendency to grow an affection for bands that support the hobby that you come to love so dearly. Once that happens, for me anyways, I rarely have the need to go undercover anymore because everyone I like allows taping.
If I were gonna go to a huge venue to see a huge band, chances are the sound would be shit anyway, so what's a $1200 stealth rig gonna do for me...help be get the best lousy sound from a lousy sounding venue?
Just my thoughts anyway.
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Reread your message and see that you tape a red rocks. I've never been there, but I've heard the sound there is awesome. I guess what I said about the big venues wouldn't apply in your case. Seems like there are lots of shows that circulate from Red Rocks though, so it seems like thats a fairly taper friendly place (for open taping consideration), but you'd have to talk to others that live there.
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The 853 mics tend to overload easily. They sound great, but they're notorious for brickwalling at relatively low volumes. The high SPL option offered by Sound Pros offers you some insurnace against this happening. This option I understand will cover you for most of the club type shows that you'd see. For the Ultra High SPL option the mics won't distort in just about any situation you can throw at it including standing dead in front of the PA at a loud rock show. I guess the tradeoff is that you lose a bit of warmth in the sound with each increase in SPL option.
Regarding whether they are necessary with the Church preamp, I've heard no, but you should PM chris church directly and he'll be able to tell you. Chris is an active member of TS.com and will be happy to answer your questions better than I can about what he sells. I know that he has many many happy customers on this list.
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You mean the High SPL mod that I developed that Sound Professionals is now doing?? You actually dont lose any sound quality what so ever with my mod.. I have a new mod that is much better then the old one if you order the AT 853 mics ( WITH OUT MY MOD ) and get them 3 wire, The new version of my three wire preamp has MY 4.7k Mod built in and the best part is you can switch it on or off, On when your going to be recording very loud shows. And off when your going to be recording acoustic stuff and need the extra 12 db of gain.. So you end up with 32.5 db of gain with my st9100 with my mod off or 23 db of gain with my mod on. My mod reduces the distortion to 0.05% at 114db.. With the mod off the distortion is 5% at 114db.. I also make my cardioid mics with a optional screw on omni capsule.. So I too have different capsule options..
And even though my preamp might not be necessary to the chain when your recording loud shows.. It sure makes your mics sound a lot better then the standard built in preamp in most devices. The sound quality of my preamp is unmatched for it size and price and when you factor in the fact that your going to get 20 db of extra gain and a high pass filter and a distortion indicator, as well as a full 9 volts of power to your mics instead of the 3 volts the MT puts out its still a wise investment.
I just wanted to correct you on a few things..
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Not sure about the Pumpkins, but the Crowes have always been open taping to my knowledge. I saw them back about 5 years ago in an indoor venue and I remember seeing mics stands all over the place.
the pumpkins have recently allowed open taping
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You mean the High SPL mod that I developed that Sound Professionals is now doing?? You actually dont lose any sound quality what so ever with my mod.. I have a new mod that is much better then the old one if you order the AT 853 mics ( WITH OUT MY MOD ) and get them 3 wire, The new version of my three wire preamp has MY 4.7k Mod built in and the best part is you can switch it on or off, On when your going to be recording very loud shows. And off when your going to be recording acoustic stuff and need the extra 12 db of gain.. So you end up with 32.5 db of gain with my st9100 with my mod off or 23 db of gain with my mod on. My mod reduces the distortion to 0.05% at 114db.. With the mod off the distortion is 5% at 114db.. I also make my cardioid mics with a optional screw on omni capsule.. So I too have different capsule options..
And even though my preamp might not be necessary to the chain when your recording loud shows.. It sure makes your mics sound a lot better then the standard built in preamp in most devices. The sound quality of my preamp is unmatched for it size and price and when you factor in the fact that your going to get 20 db of extra gain and a high pass filter and a distortion indicator, as well as a full 9 volts of power to your mics instead of the 3 volts the MT puts out its still a wise investment.
I just wanted to correct you on a few things..
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Chris just before i order you the 9100 i just wanted to make clear of something...
if my problem is the distortion of my 853's do i need to have them moded (4.7k mod) or will i simply need the 4.7k option of your preamp ?? chances are i won't use my 853's straight in the r09 anymore but rather always with the preamp...the only case is the megastealth situation with some not too loud shows where i might need my 853's unmoded...thus my question...
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You mean the High SPL mod that I developed that Sound Professionals is now doing?? You actually dont lose any sound quality what so ever with my mod.. I have a new mod that is much better then the old one if you order the AT 853 mics ( WITH OUT MY MOD ) and get them 3 wire, The new version of my three wire preamp has MY 4.7k Mod built in and the best part is you can switch it on or off, On when your going to be recording very loud shows. And off when your going to be recording acoustic stuff and need the extra 12 db of gain.. So you end up with 32.5 db of gain with my st9100 with my mod off or 23 db of gain with my mod on. My mod reduces the distortion to 0.05% at 114db.. With the mod off the distortion is 5% at 114db.. I also make my cardioid mics with a optional screw on omni capsule.. So I too have different capsule options..
And even though my preamp might not be necessary to the chain when your recording loud shows.. It sure makes your mics sound a lot better then the standard built in preamp in most devices. The sound quality of my preamp is unmatched for it size and price and when you factor in the fact that your going to get 20 db of extra gain and a high pass filter and a distortion indicator, as well as a full 9 volts of power to your mics instead of the 3 volts the MT puts out its still a wise investment.
I just wanted to correct you on a few things..
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Chris just before i order you the 9100 i just wanted to make clear of something...
if my problem is the distortion of my 853's do i need to have them moded (4.7k mod) or will i simply need the 4.7k option of your preamp ?? chances are i won't use my 853's straight in the r09 anymore but rather always with the preamp...the only case is the megastealth situation with some not too loud shows where i might need my 853's unmoded...thus my question...
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If your 853 are three wire meaning mini xlr then I can build the 4.7k mod into the preamp that option is $30 I install a switch and the 4.7k mod so it can be switched in/out. If your mics are not three wire I can convert them for you for $20.00 this is the cost of the connectors and a $5.00 for soldering them on..
I did not mean to hijack this thread sorry...
Chris
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No problem Chris, I've been reading a lot of good reviews concerning your products. So eventually you would have received a PM from me. I'm interested in your interchangeable cap mics so you'll receive a PM from me here soon.
Okay, you guys got me really excited about taping again but now in the open taping arena. Feels like the first time all over again. Remember the first time you taped a show? Kind of like that warm fuzzy feeling.
Any-who, So I think I may have figured what I want to do with my stealth option. I'm (almost positive) going to go with Church-Audio's gear: mics and 9100 preamp.
For open taping (and mind you that this is virgin territory for me, so this is actually a beginner set): I'm very interested in the Avantone CK-1's. Just because they have the interchangeable caps and are said to sound great for the price. Now when you say I will need a different pre-amp for these mics I'm assuming the 9100 will not work with these CK-1's, would that be an accurate assumption? I looked at the UA-5 is that this one http://www.roland.com/products/en/UA-5/index.html ? I also looked at the Denecke pre-amps but I'm not sure which one. There are about 6 different ones here http://www.denecke.com/Products/Audio%20Accessories/audioaccessories.htm I'm assuming it may be the PS-2 at least that one sounds more familiar to me, but I may be mistaken. This pre-amp will be able to power both mics? Would I have to change the battery after every use? or do the mics not draw that much power from the pre-amp? You also mention cables, would I purchase those from the vendor when I purchase the CK-1's or is there a better alternate solution? I did manage to see this thread http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,86839.0.html but I wasn't sure if the recommended contact could also make mic to pre-amp cables. I will probably be contacting thegreatgumbino to see what is available.
I have also read good things about using the 1/4" L&R inputs instead of the 1/8" mic jack on the Microtrack. Would you also recommend this? What is the difference if you don't mind me asking? I've heard that you get better results form using the 1/4" jacks. Now a question about the pre-amps...Would they go from a 1/8" jack from the pre-amp then split into two 1/4" jacks for the Microtrack? OR can the pre-amp go from two 1/4" jacks to the two needed for the MT? I guess concerning the 9100 I'll ask Chris but what about the pre-amp for the CK-1's?
Concerning which caps to use...For the DMB shows @ the Gorge I will be Row 30 Night 1, Row 43 Night 2, and Row 27 night 3. Would this be far enough that I would use the hyper-cardioid caps? The reserved section would be infront of the stage and it usually goes from row 1-about 50. So am I far enough back that the hypers would be beneficial? I'll be close for the Crowes @ Red Rocks-5th row. And for the Pumpkins @ Red Rocks I will be anywhere in the first 20 rows. I'm going to try and be within the first 10 rows and off to the side a little maybe infront of a stack of overhead speakers. For these shows at Red Rocks I could get away with the omni-directional caps, correct?
Yes, I did use the Core Sound HEB's but I was right infront of the sound man approximately 50 feet from the stage, almost centered in an indoor venue approximately 4000 capacity. It's not bad but it does sound very similar to the CSB's. But now, with this community's help of course, I have a better understanding about what type of mic suits the situation. But for the price that I paid for one set of mics, I now have the opportunity to expand my horizons and explore different options. I'm willing to bet that the HEB's would have done a great job at my upcoming Red Rocks shows but maybe not as well at the Gorge Amphitheater. And then they may have not done so well in an indoor atmosphere such as was the case with the Godsmack show.
Wow! lots of questions and I apologize for that but I have a month to get all this ready to go and you guys have been a wealth of information and advice. I really do appreciate everything!!
amaro
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I just took a little saturday afternoon break from painting the bathroom, so I have a couple minutes. I'll answer your questions in detail later tonight.
One thing that nobody has suggested yet that is the absolute most important suggestion that anyone can offer someone just starting up is to go to www.archive.org and do a search for microphones of the type that you're considering and give a listen. The preamp is also very important so find some samples, if possible, with the same combination that you're thinking to buy. While the dynamics of a venue might change from place to place, if you listen to a few samples from different locations you start to understand the basic sound of a specific setup and the basic characteristic sound of a setup won't change dramatically from location to location.
The Avantone CK-1s are a fairly new mic on the market, so you might not find lots of samples of those, but the others that I mentioned in my earlier message have plenty of samples to listen to on the archive.
Also, please realize that there are MANY different flavors of UA-5's out there and they all sound vastly different from each other. In fact, once modded, they are a completely different pre-amp from a stock UA-5 or a UA-5 modded by someone else.
Anyway, I'll get back to your questions later...back to painting!!!
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FWIW, you should have ZERO problems open taping any of those 3 bands listed.
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I REALLY have to get some homework done but I thought I would say that I found a pair of Studio Project C-4's for $299 and that included omni and cardioid caps. But they were out of stock at the store I found them at. I also found the Octava mics but they are pricier at $655 for the pair with omni, cardioid and hyper cardioid caps.
Did as suggested and listened to some recordings with the Avantone mics (with the different caps) and they sound really good. I'll have to get back to the others later this weekend.
Really have to get some homework done!
amaro
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No problem Chris, I've been reading a lot of good reviews concerning your products. So eventually you would have received a PM from me. I'm interested in your interchangeable cap mics so you'll receive a PM from me here soon.
Okay, you guys got me really excited about taping again but now in the open taping arena. Feels like the first time all over again. Remember the first time you taped a show? Kind of like that warm fuzzy feeling.
I can't remember specifically who I taped, to be honest. I'm an old fart and it's been at least ten years ago. But I distinctly remember some of the excitement I've felt in getting home and putting on the headphones to listen to what I got and evaluating how it sounded...and of course there were lots of times when I was disappointed because either the sound wasn't what I'd hoped or the recording got messed up for some reason. Taping has come a long way from those days (with DAT decks for example) and there's alot fewer moving parts now to mess up. Anyway, yes that feeling of satisfaction you get when you realize that you just nailed a recording...I still get off on it today. I think all of us tapers do and I think that's one of the reasons we tape, that and making sure we have a documented souvenir of THE show that you might see on one of the nights when one of your favorite bands comes out and simply KILLS it.
Any-who, So I think I may have figured what I want to do with my stealth option. I'm (almost positive) going to go with Church-Audio's gear: mics and 9100 preamp.
Cool. Lots of satisfied customers on this list, I know. FWIW, lots of people have two rigs, one for open taping and one for stealth. You probably noticed that they give the specifics in their signature line. The church audio gear shows up alot in peeps sigs.
For open taping (and mind you that this is virgin territory for me, so this is actually a beginner set): I'm very interested in the Avantone CK-1's. Just because they have the interchangeable caps and are said to sound great for the price. Now when you say I will need a different pre-amp for these mics I'm assuming the 9100 will not work with these CK-1's, would that be an accurate assumption? I looked at the UA-5 is that this one http://www.roland.com/products/en/UA-5/index.html ?
The 9100 probably wouldn't work because when you get into the full sized microphones, the cables are usually a heavier gauge wire and the connectors on the butt end of the mics are XLRs. There are some cables out there that integrate two XLRs together to a 1/8 mini connector or maybe even to mini-XLRs, but then the issue might be the voltage needed for phantom to power the mics. This is where I'm outta my league in being an expert though, but I think most of the regular sized mics need 48V phantom, but I think the 9100 only provides 9V.
Regarding your questions about the UA-5, my recommendation would be not to buy a new one because you'd most likely want to get it modded for it to sound good. Look for a used one that has already been modded on the Yard Sale. A couple reasons...first they will cost you much less than if you get all the mods done yourself...two, there are ALWAYS UA-5 listed. At any given time, there's probably anywhere from one to 3 or 4 listed.
I'd also listen to all of the different flavors and decide which sounds best to you. The reason I mention the UA-5 is because it's a workhorse and they are an excellent preamp that you can always sell if and when you decide to move on. Here are the different flavors...you can search the archives of TS.com to find out what people have to say about each.
Stock UA-5
Stock but with digi-mod
Oade Modded UA-5 comes in three different flavors; warm mod, transparent mod and presence mod...also known as the W+, T+, and P+ mod UA-5s
Busman Modded UA-5 (much less expensive than the Oade Brothers mod, but is stated to sound very similar to the Oade T+ mod)
There are a million different options for preamps besides a UA-5 though...with prices that range from a couple hundred to a couple thousands. Again, remember that archive.org is your best friend.
I also looked at the Denecke pre-amps but I'm not sure which one. There are about 6 different ones here http://www.denecke.com/Products/Audio%20Accessories/audioaccessories.htm I'm assuming it may be the PS-2 at least that one sounds more familiar to me, but I may be mistaken. This pre-amp will be able to power both mics? Would I have to change the battery after every use? or do the mics not draw that much power from the pre-amp?
Yes, the PS-2 is the preamp that people use, but depending on the setup you end up with, you may also need the ADC unit that goes with it...I can't remember the number...AD-10 or something like that. Personally, I don't think this sounds even close to as nice as the modified UA-5s, but you have to listen for yourself. I mentioned the Denecke because it's a fairly popular and inexpensive starter preamp which shows up in the Yard Sale quite often.
Battery power...you have to ask someone that's familiar with the PS-2, but my guess is that you'd want to change the battery each show. I'd bet that the battery would power it for something like 4 - 6 hours, but again I don't know...just guessing.
The most popular option for a UA-5 is an external battery hooked into the power supply port of the UA-5. These batteries run 30 or 40 and are available on ebay. You need a cable but those are easy to make and all the parts are available from Radio Shack. If you buy a used battery on the Yard Sale, they usually have the cable with it. Most UA-5s on the YS also usually come with the battery and cable packaged with the UA-5.
You also mention cables, would I purchase those from the vendor when I purchase the CK-1's or is there a better alternate solution? I did manage to see this thread http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,86839.0.html but I wasn't sure if the recommended contact could also make mic to pre-amp cables. I will probably be contacting thegreatgumbino to see what is available.
Your best bet and best price will come from buying cables from someone on this list. The great gumbino has a GREAT reputation here. The other 'most popular' type of cables are the Segue Dogstars.
What you want to decide is whether you want cables that are based on a copper core or copper with a silver cladding or something similar. Silver cables are more expensive but they are brighter sounding. I personally have tested both and I was really a skeptic as early as three months ago. No longer. I believe good cables can help the sound of a recording to be brighter and render a more realistic sound to what you are hearing live. There are LOTS and LOTS of people that will argue this. This subject is one of the hottest debated subjects on this list.
Again, the bottom line is you might want to just test the different options out for yourself and decide what you think for the gear that you have. Lots of your decision probably depends on what microphones you have (high end vs lower end) and what type of gear you listen to your recordings through.
Anyway, lower end cables should run about $40 - $50 or so for a decent pair of 15 or 20 foot XLRs made out of mogami or Canare quadstar cable (which ALOT of people on this list run). Higher end silver clad cables will run you anywhere from $80 or 90 for used pair od dogstars to a couple hundred for new pair of some of the higher end sellers.
I have also read good things about using the 1/4" L&R inputs instead of the 1/8" mic jack on the Microtrack. Would you also recommend this? What is the difference if you don't mind me asking? I've heard that you get better results form using the 1/4" jacks.
My personal experience is that the size of jack doesn't seem to make a difference in terms of sound quality. For me, the issue is stability of the rig at the venue and the propensity of a 1/8 jack to have issues with having the cable pulled out during the show or at least jostled. The 1/8 jacks also are less sturdy for the long haul, in my opinion. XLRs is best alternative there because not only are they beefy, but they usually lock in place.
Again, I'm no expert, but you can have cables made into any configuration that you want. The 1/8 jack has the same ultimate end point as the 1/4 stereo jack...they're just configured differently. What I'm saying is I'm pretty sure that you can have stereo cables made up to whatever configureation you want, whether it's XLRs, 1/4 in or 1/8 mini.
Now a question about the pre-amps...Would they go from a 1/8" jack from the pre-amp then split into two 1/4" jacks for the Microtrack? OR can the pre-amp go from two 1/4" jacks to the two needed for the MT? I guess concerning the 9100 I'll ask Chris but what about the pre-amp for the CK-1's?
Same answer. You have to look at the preamp to see what output connections you have available to you and then look at the recorder input options and have a cable made up that accommodates both.
One nice thing again about the UA-5 is that there are many different output options. The most popular is the optical out because it's a digital output (although the signal has already gone thorugh an analog conversion), but the UA-5 also has hard wire options.
I also have a microtrack and for simplicity, I just use the RCA outs on the UA-5 to a 1/8 jack and connect that to the mic in on the microtrack.
I also have a Nomad JB3 and use this same cable, but I prefer to use an optical cable from the optical out on the UA-5 to the optical in on the JB3.
Neither of these recorders is my 'first string team' though. My first string is a Busman modified Marantz PMD-660 which has the preamp built into it. I only have to take my mics, cables and the 660 to the venue and that's it!!!
Concerning which caps to use...For the DMB shows @ the Gorge I will be Row 30 Night 1, Row 43 Night 2, and Row 27 night 3. Would this be far enough that I would use the hyper-cardioid caps? The reserved section would be infront of the stage and it usually goes from row 1-about 50. So am I far enough back that the hypers would be beneficial? I'll be close for the Crowes @ Red Rocks-5th row. And for the Pumpkins @ Red Rocks I will be anywhere in the first 20 rows. I'm going to try and be within the first 10 rows and off to the side a little maybe infront of a stack of overhead speakers. For these shows at Red Rocks I could get away with the omni-directional caps, correct?
Personally wouldn't run Omni's at a concert venue in either case. The reason is that the Omnis will pick up all the crowd noise behind you as well as in front. The advantage of the cards is that they reject the sound from behind. The hypers have a rear lobe, but it's not all that intrusive.
Regarding hypers vs cards, you have to experiment with the specific venue and capsules. Some if it is logic based, but alot of it is specific equipment based and experimentation. In general, from a logical perspective, you just need to consider that a hyper cap generally has a more focused sound pickup pattern. The 'rule of thumb' is that this focusing helps to reject the reverb in a boomy room in an indoor venue and kinda lets the cap sorta zoom in on the sound a little bit.
The same may be true when you're outdoors and back a ways. I've read where some people feel that the hypers help reject a little bit of the crowd and focus in on the stacks a little more.
On the other hand, the cardiods are usually considered the most elegant and musical option for a good sounding show. I think it's safe to say that if you want to record what you are hearing in your seat, then you definitely should run with the cards. Many people say that cards are the ONLY caps to run outdoors because there's no reverb to worry about. Others argue that point and like hypers. Bean, an all-star on this list, runs hypers only for all his recording anymore.
So, you see there are just many different opinions, but regarding the shows that you have coming up, I think you could run either hypers or cards and get good results. I'd leave the omnis home though because there's no reason you'd have to want to pick up any sound from behind you.
Yes, I did use the Core Sound HEB's but I was right infront of the sound man approximately 50 feet from the stage, almost centered in an indoor venue approximately 4000 capacity. It's not bad but it does sound very similar to the CSB's. But now, with this community's help of course, I have a better understanding about what type of mic suits the situation. But for the price that I paid for one set of mics, I now have the opportunity to expand my horizons and explore different options. I'm willing to bet that the HEB's would have done a great job at my upcoming Red Rocks shows but maybe not as well at the Gorge Amphitheater. And then they may have not done so well in an indoor atmosphere such as was the case with the Godsmack show.
Wow! lots of questions and I apologize for that but I have a month to get all this ready to go and you guys have been a wealth of information and advice. I really do appreciate everything!!
amaro
My pleasure and again...good luck and check out that ARCHIVE!!!
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FWIW, just to address the post above, the Denecke PS2 is NOT a pre-amp, it provides phantom power only, but does not add any gain. There's an Aeta PS2 which IS a pre, but priced well beyond the original poster's budget.
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No problem Chris, I've been reading a lot of good reviews concerning your products. So eventually you would have received a PM from me. I'm interested in your interchangeable cap mics so you'll receive a PM from me here soon.
Okay, you guys got me really excited about taping again but now in the open taping arena. Feels like the first time all over again. Remember the first time you taped a show? Kind of like that warm fuzzy feeling.
I can't remember specifically who I taped, to be honest. I'm an old fart and it's been at least ten years ago. But I distinctly remember some of the excitement I've felt in getting home and putting on the headphones to listen to what I got and evaluating how it sounded...and of course there were lots of times when I was disappointed because either the sound wasn't what I'd hoped or the recording got messed up for some reason. Taping has come a long way from those days (with DAT decks for example) and there's alot fewer moving parts now to mess up. Anyway, yes that feeling of satisfaction you get when you realize that you just nailed a recording...I still get off on it today. I think all of us tapers do and I think that's one of the reasons we tape, that and making sure we have a documented souvenir of THE show that you might see on one of the nights when one of your favorite bands comes out and simply KILLS it.
Any-who, So I think I may have figured what I want to do with my stealth option. I'm (almost positive) going to go with Church-Audio's gear: mics and 9100 preamp.
Cool. Lots of satisfied customers on this list, I know. FWIW, lots of people have two rigs, one for open taping and one for stealth. You probably noticed that they give the specifics in their signature line. The church audio gear shows up alot in peeps sigs.
For open taping (and mind you that this is virgin territory for me, so this is actually a beginner set): I'm very interested in the Avantone CK-1's. Just because they have the interchangeable caps and are said to sound great for the price. Now when you say I will need a different pre-amp for these mics I'm assuming the 9100 will not work with these CK-1's, would that be an accurate assumption? I looked at the UA-5 is that this one http://www.roland.com/products/en/UA-5/index.html ?
The 9100 probably wouldn't work because when you get into the full sized microphones, the cables are usually a heavier gauge wire and the connectors on the butt end of the mics are XLRs. There are some cables out there that integrate two XLRs together to a 1/8 mini connector or maybe even to mini-XLRs, but then the issue might be the voltage needed for phantom to power the mics. This is where I'm outta my league in being an expert though, but I think most of the regular sized mics need 48V phantom, but I think the 9100 only provides 9V.
Regarding your questions about the UA-5, my recommendation would be not to buy a new one because you'd most likely want to get it modded for it to sound good. Look for a used one that has already been modded on the Yard Sale. A couple reasons...first they will cost you much less than if you get all the mods done yourself...two, there are ALWAYS UA-5 listed. At any given time, there's probably anywhere from one to 3 or 4 listed.
I'd also listen to all of the different flavors and decide which sounds best to you. The reason I mention the UA-5 is because it's a workhorse and they are an excellent preamp that you can always sell if and when you decide to move on. Here are the different flavors...you can search the archives of TS.com to find out what people have to say about each.
Stock UA-5
Stock but with digi-mod
Oade Modded UA-5 comes in three different flavors; warm mod, transparent mod and presence mod...also known as the W+, T+, and P+ mod UA-5s
Busman Modded UA-5 (much less expensive than the Oade Brothers mod, but is stated to sound very similar to the Oade T+ mod)
There are a million different options for preamps besides a UA-5 though...with prices that range from a couple hundred to a couple thousands. Again, remember that archive.org is your best friend.
I also looked at the Denecke pre-amps but I'm not sure which one. There are about 6 different ones here http://www.denecke.com/Products/Audio%20Accessories/audioaccessories.htm I'm assuming it may be the PS-2 at least that one sounds more familiar to me, but I may be mistaken. This pre-amp will be able to power both mics? Would I have to change the battery after every use? or do the mics not draw that much power from the pre-amp?
Yes, the PS-2 is the preamp that people use, but depending on the setup you end up with, you may also need the ADC unit that goes with it...I can't remember the number...AD-10 or something like that. Personally, I don't think this sounds even close to as nice as the modified UA-5s, but you have to listen for yourself. I mentioned the Denecke because it's a fairly popular and inexpensive starter preamp which shows up in the Yard Sale quite often.
Battery power...you have to ask someone that's familiar with the PS-2, but my guess is that you'd want to change the battery each show. I'd bet that the battery would power it for something like 4 - 6 hours, but again I don't know...just guessing.
The most popular option for a UA-5 is an external battery hooked into the power supply port of the UA-5. These batteries run 30 or 40 and are available on ebay. You need a cable but those are easy to make and all the parts are available from Radio Shack. If you buy a used battery on the Yard Sale, they usually have the cable with it. Most UA-5s on the YS also usually come with the battery and cable packaged with the UA-5.
You also mention cables, would I purchase those from the vendor when I purchase the CK-1's or is there a better alternate solution? I did manage to see this thread http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,86839.0.html but I wasn't sure if the recommended contact could also make mic to pre-amp cables. I will probably be contacting thegreatgumbino to see what is available.
Your best bet and best price will come from buying cables from someone on this list. The great gumbino has a GREAT reputation here. The other 'most popular' type of cables are the Segue Dogstars.
What you want to decide is whether you want cables that are based on a copper core or copper with a silver cladding or something similar. Silver cables are more expensive but they are brighter sounding. I personally have tested both and I was really a skeptic as early as three months ago. No longer. I believe good cables can help the sound of a recording to be brighter and render a more realistic sound to what you are hearing live. There are LOTS and LOTS of people that will argue this. This subject is one of the hottest debated subjects on this list.
Again, the bottom line is you might want to just test the different options out for yourself and decide what you think for the gear that you have. Lots of your decision probably depends on what microphones you have (high end vs lower end) and what type of gear you listen to your recordings through.
Anyway, lower end cables should run about $40 - $50 or so for a decent pair of 15 or 20 foot XLRs made out of mogami or Canare quadstar cable (which ALOT of people on this list run). Higher end silver clad cables will run you anywhere from $80 or 90 for used pair od dogstars to a couple hundred for new pair of some of the higher end sellers.
I have also read good things about using the 1/4" L&R inputs instead of the 1/8" mic jack on the Microtrack. Would you also recommend this? What is the difference if you don't mind me asking? I've heard that you get better results form using the 1/4" jacks.
My personal experience is that the size of jack doesn't seem to make a difference in terms of sound quality. For me, the issue is stability of the rig at the venue and the propensity of a 1/8 jack to have issues with having the cable pulled out during the show or at least jostled. The 1/8 jacks also are less sturdy for the long haul, in my opinion. XLRs is best alternative there because not only are they beefy, but they usually lock in place.
Again, I'm no expert, but you can have cables made into any configuration that you want. The 1/8 jack has the same ultimate end point as the 1/4 stereo jack...they're just configured differently. What I'm saying is I'm pretty sure that you can have stereo cables made up to whatever configureation you want, whether it's XLRs, 1/4 in or 1/8 mini.
Now a question about the pre-amps...Would they go from a 1/8" jack from the pre-amp then split into two 1/4" jacks for the Microtrack? OR can the pre-amp go from two 1/4" jacks to the two needed for the MT? I guess concerning the 9100 I'll ask Chris but what about the pre-amp for the CK-1's?
Same answer. You have to look at the preamp to see what output connections you have available to you and then look at the recorder input options and have a cable made up that accommodates both.
One nice thing again about the UA-5 is that there are many different output options. The most popular is the optical out because it's a digital output (although the signal has already gone thorugh an analog conversion), but the UA-5 also has hard wire options.
I also have a microtrack and for simplicity, I just use the RCA outs on the UA-5 to a 1/8 jack and connect that to the mic in on the microtrack.
I also have a Nomad JB3 and use this same cable, but I prefer to use an optical cable from the optical out on the UA-5 to the optical in on the JB3.
Neither of these recorders is my 'first string team' though. My first string is a Busman modified Marantz PMD-660 which has the preamp built into it. I only have to take my mics, cables and the 660 to the venue and that's it!!!
Concerning which caps to use...For the DMB shows @ the Gorge I will be Row 30 Night 1, Row 43 Night 2, and Row 27 night 3. Would this be far enough that I would use the hyper-cardioid caps? The reserved section would be infront of the stage and it usually goes from row 1-about 50. So am I far enough back that the hypers would be beneficial? I'll be close for the Crowes @ Red Rocks-5th row. And for the Pumpkins @ Red Rocks I will be anywhere in the first 20 rows. I'm going to try and be within the first 10 rows and off to the side a little maybe infront of a stack of overhead speakers. For these shows at Red Rocks I could get away with the omni-directional caps, correct?
Personally wouldn't run Omni's at a concert venue in either case. The reason is that the Omnis will pick up all the crowd noise behind you as well as in front. The advantage of the cards is that they reject the sound from behind. The hypers have a rear lobe, but it's not all that intrusive.
Regarding hypers vs cards, you have to experiment with the specific venue and capsules. Some if it is logic based, but alot of it is specific equipment based and experimentation. In general, from a logical perspective, you just need to consider that a hyper cap generally has a more focused sound pickup pattern. The 'rule of thumb' is that this focusing helps to reject the reverb in a boomy room in an indoor venue and kinda lets the cap sorta zoom in on the sound a little bit.
The same may be true when you're outdoors and back a ways. I've read where some people feel that the hypers help reject a little bit of the crowd and focus in on the stacks a little more.
On the other hand, the cardiods are usually considered the most elegant and musical option for a good sounding show. I think it's safe to say that if you want to record what you are hearing in your seat, then you definitely should run with the cards. Many people say that cards are the ONLY caps to run outdoors because there's no reverb to worry about. Others argue that point and like hypers. Bean, an all-star on this list, runs hypers only for all his recording anymore.
So, you see there are just many different opinions, but regarding the shows that you have coming up, I think you could run either hypers or cards and get good results. I'd leave the omnis home though because there's no reason you'd have to want to pick up any sound from behind you.
Yes, I did use the Core Sound HEB's but I was right infront of the sound man approximately 50 feet from the stage, almost centered in an indoor venue approximately 4000 capacity. It's not bad but it does sound very similar to the CSB's. But now, with this community's help of course, I have a better understanding about what type of mic suits the situation. But for the price that I paid for one set of mics, I now have the opportunity to expand my horizons and explore different options. I'm willing to bet that the HEB's would have done a great job at my upcoming Red Rocks shows but maybe not as well at the Gorge Amphitheater. And then they may have not done so well in an indoor atmosphere such as was the case with the Godsmack show.
Wow! lots of questions and I apologize for that but I have a month to get all this ready to go and you guys have been a wealth of information and advice. I really do appreciate everything!!
amaro
My pleasure and again...good luck and check out that ARCHIVE!!!
Dam and I thought I liked to type ;)
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FWIW, just to address the post above, the Denecke PS2 is NOT a pre-amp, it provides phantom power only, but does not add any gain. There's an Aeta PS2 which IS a pre, but priced well beyond the original poster's budget.
Thanks for correcting. Just trying to give the guy some tips and address some of his questions best I knew...now that you say, I think it's the AD-10 that's the pre in the Denecke setup? Anyhow, he seems really into it and looks like he's ready to jump with both feet. He's posting in the yard sale now based on some of the recommendations that I've provided, so I feel a little responsible for making sure I give him good info...and I tried to give as much detail as I could...like Chris said though, it turned into a pretty long post!!! :laugh:
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Yea, I'm sorry for writing so much. I should be doing the typing for my homework assignments. Just more to do for tomorrow.
So I've compared the suggested mics and have to say that I really like the Octava mics. I compared them by having different browser windows open and I am really liking those mics. But at $655, that is a little steep for me. IF I was to spend that kind of money on just the mics, is there another set of mics in that range that I can compare the Octava mics with. Out of the 3 open mics I would spend the money on these just because I like the sound that much. The Studio Projects I thought sounded too bassy and "thick", if that's even any way of describing the sound. But what originally cost $520 was slashed to $299. So that would be a great deal but not if I'm not completely turned on by them. The Avantone's sounded good but compared to the Octava mics they still didn't hold up. Another good price for a good mic. Would the Octava mics be considered low end even at $655 for the pair?
Good info overall, I knew there was more to this than just throwing things together. It's more of an art form, or science if you will. Okay, I have to get off of here. Some more tomorrow though. Again, thanks to everyone for the help. Special kudos to "tonedeaf" for REALLY taking the time to answer so many questions. Hope the painting project turned out great!!
amaro
Tonedeaf, in your first post you mentioned Octava MC-012, did you mean MK-012 by any chance? I just want to make sure those are the correct ones. Didn't find any MC's.
Absolutely last entry for the night! I went to http://www.recordingservices.net/index.html and can get the Octava mics with 3 different caps, mic cables, pair of windscreens and a t-bar for a stand all for about $800 shipped. Is that pretty good? See-you tomorrow :sleepy:
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Yea, I'm sorry for writing so much. I should be doing the typing for my homework assignments. Just more to do for tomorrow.
So I've compared the suggested mics and have to say that I really like the Octava mics. I compared them by having different browser windows open and I am really liking those mics. But at $655, that is a little steep for me. IF I was to spend that kind of money on just the mics, is there another set of mics in that range that I can compare the Octava mics with. Out of the 3 open mics I would spend the money on these just because I like the sound that much. The Studio Projects I thought sounded too bassy and "thick", if that's even any way of describing the sound. But what originally cost $520 was slashed to $299.
Generally, if you're patient, everything comes up used on the Yard Sale at one time or another. Lots of people have lots of success, once they decide what they want, posting an 'ISO' (in search of) on the Yard Sale. If anyone is thinking about selling, that's your key in to getting them thinking even harder. I'd say 75% of ISO end up successfully hitting target, but I may be off on that estimate.
What I'm getting at is this...many people (me included) would NEVER buy their gear new. The reason is that there are so many gear sluts on TS.com that gear turns over ALL the time. Generally, when you buy it used, you can sell if for pretty near the same price you bought it for. That means if you end up not likeing what you bought, or usually what happens is people opt to just move on to something different or better, then it hasn't cost you anything.
You'll see some people buying stuff just to try it out and then they'll turn around and sell it for the same price two weeks later.
Having said this, my initial reactions to the prices you've stated above are $299 for SP-C4 is int the range, but maybe about $100 more than I've seen them in the YS. The Oktava seem way over what they've gone for used. Pretty sure I've seen the Oktava's for at least half that price, but maybe those prices didn't include extra caps.
With the Oktavas you also want to make sure they aren't from China. I guess there's two versions and the ones from Russia are said to be better, although the Chinese versions look the same I guess they have a different sound...again not better or worse but different. Generally, on the market though more people seem to seek the Russian made than the Chinese. I have no idea how to tell the diff, but I'm sure there's discussions about that somewhere in the archives.
Do a search in YS history to find out the used prices.
So that would be a great deal but not if I'm not completely turned on by them. The Avantone's sounded good but compared to the Octava mics they still didn't hold up. Another good price for a good mic. Would the Octava mics be considered low end even at $655 for the pair?
Check YS history for Octavas. That's alot of money for those mics when you can get a much nicer used pair for the same amount. For my money, if I were gonna pay in the $700 range, I'd wait for a set of Peluso's. Also, there are a pair of Josephson C-42's listed right now that I think are dreamy sounding, but these are fixed cardiod caps so you wouldn't be able to change capsules.
Good info overall, I knew there was more to this than just throwing things together. It's more of an art form, or science if you will. Okay, I have to get off of here. Some more tomorrow though. Again, thanks to everyone for the help. Special kudos to "tonedeaf" for REALLY taking the time to answer so many questions. Hope the painting project turned out great!!
amaro
Second coat goes on tomorrow!!!
Tonedeaf, in your first post you mentioned Octava MC-012, did you mean MK-012 by any chance? I just want to make sure those are the correct ones. Didn't find any MC's.
Sorry about that. MK's are the ones.
Absolutely last entry for the night! I went to http://www.recordingservices.net/index.html and can get the Octava mics with 3 different caps, mic cables, pair of windscreens and a t-bar for a stand all for about $800 shipped. Is that pretty good? See-you tomorrow :sleepy:
Well three sets of caps is enticing, but again I think that's pretty high for the Oktavas, but my basis is strictly going from the used market prices I've seen. Used really is the way to go...as you can see if you browse the yard sale, there is TONS and TONS of used gear and more comes up daily. I must add though that when Oktava MK-012s come up, they're usually gone really quick, so an ISO might be a good idea for you.
If you have your heart set on the MK-012s and offer to pay a really good price, that might entice an Oktava owner to give them up!
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now that you say, I think it's the AD-10 that's the pre in the Denecke setup?
It's the Denecke AD20 that's both a pre and A/D Converter. It doesn't provide phantom power though, which is why you'll see mics>PS2>AD20>recorder in a lot of source info. You'll need both.
Just wanted to point out to all "newbies" (I hate that term) that manitouman has gone about things the right way.
He's asking questions, doing research, and listening to the advice given. There are so many people whose first post here is "WHAT MIC SHOULD I BUY TO GO WITH MY MD RECORDER?!?!?" and then get mad when they don't get the responses they're looking for.
We're a helpful, friendly bunch around here for the most part, and this thread proves it.
A +T to manitouman and all those that have offered him help.
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I feel kinda responsible for some of the decisions that you look to be making, so I've got your thread on my mind. Sorry if this is information overload. Please keep in mind that the advice I'm providing is just my persective and you might want to get other opinions, but like I've mentioned many times already, you own ears are your best ally and the more time you spend on archive, the more this advice that is provided by people like me will be put into the context of what YOU want in your rig.
The last thing I would want to have happen is for you to make a bad decision for you based on what I like. But I've just gone through the same process that you're going through...I'm about 6 - 8 months ahead of you and although I was initially thinking that I'd be spending around $1500, I have to admit that I now have over $3k in my gear...yes, it gets in your blood. Sue me, I'm a confirmed gear slut!
Having said all that, I'd like to explain a little more why I've been mentioning the Pelusos or the Josephsons in the $600 to $700 price point. First the Peluso's. Again, I haven't researched these mics, I can only tell you what I remember reading on this forum, but these mics are also a fairly new entry. The guy named Peloso is the designer and I suppose owner of the company. He apparetnly worked for Schoeps for many many years before striking on his own. You might know that Schoeps mics are very popular and are high end mics in the $2K - $3K range. The Peluso entry product, the CEMC6, are supposedly built to mimic the sound of the schoeps series of the similar model number. Pelusos have the option for inchangeable capsules. Owners of Peluso mics love them and it's generally accepted on this board that these mics represent a really great value for the price.
Josephson C-42s are fixed capsule cardiod mics. These are also a product from a fairly new company...it seems like the newest mic manufacturer companys are putting out products that are much lower in price but for a similar quality as their long-established higher end competitors. Josephsons are getting more and more popular. The common comment about this particular microphone is that it sounds alot like the Neumann KM184. I own the 184s and I agree with that assessment. 184s (and by association the Josephsons) are WONDERFUL mics (I admit though that I'm biased) with such a mature sound that you may never need to have another pair of cardiods. However, the down side is that they are fixed cardiod capsule. Still, you just can't argue with the high quality sound out of a product that costs less than $800. On the used market, the 184s go for betwen $900 and $1100 or so, although I was watching some just recently that sold on ebay for $1200. New, the C-42's run less than $1k for a pair and used they're of course even lower.
There are probably other mic options in the $600 - $700 range, but right now these are two that I'm thinking about and I would consider if I were you...I'd personally probably rank both of these quite significantly above the Oktava's, even with the Oktava options for mulitple caps, but then again my priority has always been the best sound quality I can get with the cardiods since those capsules are what most people use in at least 75% of their recording situations.
Your decision may hinge on whether your priority is having the flexibility of having multiple caps for your price point, or the highest quality sound you can get for the same price.
For me personally, I found that once I dove in with both feet, I started listening to other peoples recordings and comparing them with mine. If mine didn't sound as good, then I was left feeling kinda unsatisfied with what I'd bought...even though I knew at the time I bought the stuff that I wasn't buying top-of-the-line. Still, in my mind, when I'd spend the money that I had, it seemed crazy to me that I couldn't get sound that was comparable. So, that's when I decided that my priorities probably were the highest quality sound rather than simply getting the most gear for the money that I had to spend. That's especially true also when you realize that your initial investment might only be your first of many purchases, if the experience of others on TS.com is a prediction of your future tendencies. Again, taping will become a priority for you and you'll probably just end up buying more stuff and experimenting more, just like the rest of us sluts. Our weaknesses won't necessarily become yours, but there are ALOT of people on this list that have the exact same patterns of gear-slut-itis. It's pretty much of a joke amonst us, but it's also such a common thing that it's easy to let new people understand what the tendencies that they might come to expect in the future, so that it might also help them with their present purchases. We all buy stuff and often our declaration is 'I'm done...this is my dream rig and I'll be happy for the rest of my life' and then a couple months later, we're back trolling the yard sale. Ha!
Later
Steve
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Steve & others, I feel more like you guys are showing me options but not actually making the decision for me. After all, I still hold the money. I really appreciate all the help. I think I've pieced together a strong rig that will work for a while on my budget. At least squeeze off a couple years. When I started looking at the different options I had in my mind that I didn't want to go way on the low-end and obviously can't afford the high end so that was out of the question. I've done quite a few comparisons with the suggested equipment and have come to a conclusion...this is where you hear a drum roll.....I've decided on the Peluso CEMC6 mic set. I absolutely like the sound coming from them. I've heard different set-ups but have to say that they are by far the better sounding in that price range that I compared. I did like the Josephson's but not at that price and because of the lack of interchangeable caps. And I found the Peluso's a whole $6 cheaper than the Octava mics. Now if that means I can step up to a better mic and save $6 then I'm all for that.
I don't have a problem buying used, as a matter of fact I may have secured a UA-5 to go with these mics, but I really like the feel of sole ownership, and a warranty. I could save a lot of money but if something went wrong I'm pretty much SOL. And besides, I REALLY take care of my gear. So it will be in great hands. Another reason I can't wait for a pair to come up for sale in the YS is because I will be heading out for the first set of shows on August 28th. So I have a month to carefully put something together, test it, familiarize myself with it, set it up as if in an actual simulation, etc. I like to be prepared in other words. I don't want to be 1500 miles from home and forget something or need something I should of had had I prepared.
My next questions will be on suggested settings for the mics and pre-amp but I'll leave that for the pre-amp forum.
Again, I can't thank you guys enough for all the help. If you see a pair of Peluso's in the air stop by and say "hi!"
amaro
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That's an excellent decision, my man. I don't think you'll be sorry in the least, especially if you pair those buggers up with a Wmod UA-5 or something similar. Since the Peluso's also represent a great value for microphones a) they don't come along to terribly often and b) they're gone the same day they come up. That can be frustrating if you're waiting for a long time and then some get listed at exactly the time when you can't check in on the YS one day. So, what I'm driving at is that you might want to post an ISO. The Peluso's are def gonna be harder to find used than the Oktavas. There's just not as many sets of Peluso's out there and I have the feeling that their owners are very happy with them and generally hanging onto them.
Anyhow, I'm really pleased that I was able to help you along. Check in now and then and let me know how your quest is coming along. After this weekend, I feel like your TS.com mentor so I'm interested to hear how it all turns out and whether you're happy with what you end up with!!!
BTW, I just got back in from an outside Blues Traveler show which I recorded tonight. Woot...recording turned out ex+! Remember what we discussed way back at the beginning about the thrill of nailing a good show...yessss!
Steve
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allow me to add to the confusion by suggesting an Audix micro 1290c setup.
interchangeable caps.
small enough to stealth w/ease.
smokes the ATs.
not c42 /km184 quality, but then again you're talking $400 new for these. and they are really nice sounding.
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I have also read good things about using the 1/4" L&R inputs instead of the 1/8" mic jack on the Microtrack. Would you also recommend this? What is the difference if you don't mind me asking? I've heard that you get better results form using the 1/4" jacks. Now a question about the pre-amps...Would they go from a 1/8" jack from the pre-amp then split into two 1/4" jacks for the Microtrack? OR can the pre-amp go from two 1/4" jacks to the two needed for the MT? I guess concerning the 9100 I'll ask Chris but what about the pre-amp for the CK-1's?
It has definitely been my experience that better results are obtained using the 1/4" inputs (set to Line-In) on the Microtrack vs. the 1/8" mic input jack. The difference is that the MT's internal mic preamp, which you can't bypass using the 1/8" jack, adds a lot of very audible noise along with the gain to the incoming signal. If you're using an external preamp, there's really no reason for using the 1/8" input anyway. If you're using a preamp with analog output (no analog-to-digital conversion) like the ST-9100, whatever the stereo output is on the preamp should be converted to two mono 1/4" phone plugs. Sound Pros sells a compact if overpriced gizmo to route a 1/8" (3.5mm) stereo mini-plug into the MT's 1/4" TRS jacks:
http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-MICROTRACK-INTERFACE
Or you can just get a somewhat bulkier but much less expensive adapter cable that will do the job.
If you're using larger condenser mics like CK-1s requiring phantom power for open taping, I'd recommend finding a good combined preamp/ADC with balanced XLR inputs designed for such mics (like one of the various modded UA-5s, which also provide phantom power) and running a digital signal into the S/PDIF jack of the Microtrack with an appropriate cable. Even when using the 1/4" inputs and an external analog preamp, the internal A/D conversion in the MT is... well, it's definitely less than great. Using the MT's non-standard phantom power option will power some condensers adequately but not others, and is generally not recommended -- and you really want to conserve its battery for the recorder itself.
I also like the Audix M1290 micro condensers, but personally I wouldn't consider them a huge improvement over top-quality electrets (which are smaller, less expensive and easier to power) like AT853s or Church's STC-11s teamed with a good preamp/ADC. To my ears the M1290s are somewhat better at the high end, slightly less detailed in the midrange, and more responsive but also a little muddier in the lower frequencies vs. SP-CMC-8 mics (aka AT943) when paired with my Core mic2496 preamp/ADC. The Audix mics also suck up a lot of power and will require a quite a bit of gain at quieter SPLs, although that may not be an issue for most of the shows you record. I agree with your perception of the DPA4061 mics btw, from the recordings I've heard I don't think their sound justifies their cost and it's hard enough to pull a good stealth recording with directional caps.
Listening to as many recordings as you can with the mic/preamp combinations you're considering is definitely very good advice. Sometimes even that's not enough... I bought a pair of Peluso CEMC6's and an R-4 recorder primarily on the strength of Nick's great-sounding recordings on LMA, but I've found that while the Pelusos are amazing for capturing high-frequency transients like cymbal and guitar overtones and also have excellent bass response, their exceptional brightness also makes the female vocalists I typically record sound like they're gargling with glass shavings. After listening to some of my favorite singers recorded with AKG 480s, I later wound up springing for a couple of them when I found a great deal on a slightly used pair. I absolutely adore those mics on everything I've thrown at them so far, I just hope my wife never finds out what I paid for them (great deal or no). So my point here, aside from nirvana being expensive, is this: It's ideal if you can sample recordings of the same type of source material you plan to record, as well as captured by the same gear.
If you decide you really want a pair of Pelusos (and I will say they sound real good to me on the couple of recordings I've made of bands with male singers), then we should talk. I'm willing to sell mine, in excellent condition with card, omni and hyper caps, at a very reasonable price to a good home, although I don't know if I can bring myself to part with the shock mounts.
Good luck, I'm excited for you!
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You mean the High SPL mod that I developed that Sound Professionals is now doing?? You actually dont lose any sound quality what so ever with my mod.. I have a new mod that is much better then the old one if you order the AT 853 mics ( WITH OUT MY MOD ) and get them 3 wire, The new version of my three wire preamp has MY 4.7k Mod built in and the best part is you can switch it on or off, On when your going to be recording very loud shows. And off when your going to be recording acoustic stuff and need the extra 12 db of gain.. So you end up with 32.5 db of gain with my st9100 with my mod off or 23 db of gain with my mod on. My mod reduces the distortion to 0.05% at 114db.. With the mod off the distortion is 5% at 114db.. I also make my cardioid mics with a optional screw on omni capsule.. So I too have different capsule options..
And even though my preamp might not be necessary to the chain when your recording loud shows.. It sure makes your mics sound a lot better then the standard built in preamp in most devices. The sound quality of my preamp is unmatched for it size and price and when you factor in the fact that your going to get 20 db of extra gain and a high pass filter and a distortion indicator, as well as a full 9 volts of power to your mics instead of the 3 volts the MT puts out its still a wise investment.
I just wanted to correct you on a few things..
Chris just before i order you the 9100 i just wanted to make clear of something...
if my problem is the distortion of my 853's do i need to have them moded (4.7k mod) or will i simply need the 4.7k option of your preamp ?? chances are i won't use my 853's straight in the r09 anymore but rather always with the preamp...the only case is the megastealth situation with some not too loud shows where i might need my 853's unmoded...thus my question...
[/quote]
If your 853 are three wire meaning mini xlr then I can build the 4.7k mod into the preamp that option is $30 I install a switch and the 4.7k mod so it can be switched in/out. If your mics are not three wire I can convert them for you for $20.00 this is the cost of the connectors and a $5.00 for soldering them on..
I did not mean to hijack this thread sorry...
Chris
[/quote]
...can hardly be called hijacking when your mod has been hijacked itself!
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I didn't read the whole thread, but one part did jump out at me... if you weren't able to hear the difference between CSBs and 4061s, then you might consider sinking some of that money into a different playback setup.
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I didn't read the whole thread, but one part did jump out at me... if you weren't able to hear the difference between CSBs and 4061s, then you might consider sinking some of that money into a different playback setup.
word!
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used DPA 4061 omni mics, great tiny mics for $500
new DPA mma6000 preamplifier, great tiny preamp for the mics for $500
DPA connector, very expensive little cable to run from preamp to your Microtracker for $80
you are all set with a killer tiny rig!
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After listening to some of my favorite singers recorded with AKG 480s, I later wound up springing for a couple of them when I found a great deal on a slightly used pair. I absolutely adore those mics on everything I've thrown at them so far,
Well, I'd have also suggested those mics too, but you're disregarding what he said in the first place, that his budget is $1200. You can't squeeze blood out of a turnip and we all have to compromise when we can't jump right to the ultimate quality gear we start out. So that's why I suggested that the C-42 or Peluso's seem to be amongst the most popular mics that have the biggest bang for buck at the $700 or so price point.
You do a new taper a disservice by telling them to check out the higher priced gear because it's only natural, in general, that the higher price stuff is gonna sound better, which in turn is gonna make someone potentially less than happy about a decision when they have to buy less.
Just my opinion...as usual.
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After listening to some of my favorite singers recorded with AKG 480s, I later wound up springing for a couple of them when I found a great deal on a slightly used pair. I absolutely adore those mics on everything I've thrown at them so far,
Well, I'd have also suggested those mics too, but you're disregarding what he said in the first place, that his budget is $1200. You can't squeeze blood out of a turnip and we all have to compromise when we can't jump right to the ultimate quality gear we start out. So that's why I suggested that the C-42 or Peluso's seem to be amongst the most popular mics that have the biggest bang for buck at the $700 or so price point.
You do a new taper a disservice by telling them to check out the higher priced gear because it's only natural, in general, that the higher price stuff is gonna sound better, which in turn is gonna make someone potentially less than happy about a decision when they have to buy less.
Just my opinion...as usual.
Sorry if I came across as recommending the 480s to Amaro in this situation, that certainly wasn't my intention. My point was just that he should listen to recordings of artists he expects to record with the gear he's considering if possible before making a decision. My own opinion is that the Audix M1290s are more natural-sounding than the Pelusos (I paid about the same for both, both well within his budget), although the Pelusos clearly have more presence at the top and bottom ends. But the best choice may well depend on what kind of music he plans to record most of the time. I don't have any experience with the Josephsons myself nor have I heard much recorded with them.
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After listening to some of my favorite singers recorded with AKG 480s, I later wound up springing for a couple of them when I found a great deal on a slightly used pair. I absolutely adore those mics on everything I've thrown at them so far,
Well, I'd have also suggested those mics too, but you're disregarding what he said in the first place, that his budget is $1200. You can't squeeze blood out of a turnip and we all have to compromise when we can't jump right to the ultimate quality gear we start out. So that's why I suggested that the C-42 or Peluso's seem to be amongst the most popular mics that have the biggest bang for buck at the $700 or so price point.
You do a new taper a disservice by telling them to check out the higher priced gear because it's only natural, in general, that the higher price stuff is gonna sound better, which in turn is gonna make someone potentially less than happy about a decision when they have to buy less.
Just my opinion...as usual.
Sorry if I came across as recommending the 480s to Amaro in this situation, that certainly wasn't my intention. My point was just that he should listen to recordings of artists he expects to record with the gear he's considering if possible before making a decision. My own opinion is that the Audix M1290s are more natural-sounding than the Pelusos (I paid about the same for both, both well within his budget), although the Pelusos clearly have more presence at the top and bottom ends. But the best choice may well depend on what kind of music he plans to record most of the time. I don't have any experience with the Josephsons myself nor have I heard much recorded with them.
One question, how are you evaluating these mics?
Chris
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One question, how are you evaluating these mics?
Chris
Initially by the way they sound to me listening to the 24-bit source recordings through Sony V700 headphones, and later by how they sound to me on my various playback systems (usually after being dithered to 16 bits, and often after being compressed to 192kbs mp3s) -- obviously a very subjective criterion and YMMV, which is why I recommend listening to lots of samples before buying. In the case of the Audix and Peluso mics, I've actually recorded a couple of shows using a stereo pair of each (card caps, same configuration on the same stand) into the R-4 for comparison. The Pelusos are way more detailed and have better bass response, but they also have an emphasis in the higher frequencies that I find unpleasant when recording female vocalists -- I haven't seen frequecy plots for them, but I'm willing to bet they're a long way from flat. On the other hand, I have a recording of a jazz trio where I definitely preferred the Pelusos, and a recording I made of the Alternate Routes (male singer) also turned out very nicely. I should add that I rarely tape shows where distortion due to high SPLs is likely to be an issue, I'm more into quieter bands like Cowboy Junkies, Over the Rhine etc. (Ryan Adams and Lucinda Williams are about as loud as I get these days).
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Oktava mics are not $600, more like $200 for a pair by the way
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Question:
I have been reading along and I started wondering....with these $700 mics....what is the resale value on them? As compared to more sought after (and higher priced) mics like Neumann and other German brands?
Maybe a dumb question....but it tickled my brain that the mid grade/lower end (no offense/they may not be/just my perception) mics might not get nearly what you paid for......
.................. :-\
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Question:
I have been reading along and I started wondering....with these $700 mics....what is the resale value on them? As compared to more sought after (and higher priced) mics like Neumann and other German brands?
Maybe a dumb question....but it tickled my brain that the mid grade/lower end (no offense/they may not be/just my perception) mics might not get nearly what you paid for......
.................. :-\
if you purhcase the mics used here in the yardsale...you will usually recoup nearly all of what you paid for them (provided you do your homework when buying) what little you do lose, you can just consider a rental fee. ;D
I personally have gone through at least 10 pairs of mics in the last 4 years...and total may have lost 200$..and that is probably a stretch.
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my experience has also been that mics retain their value and resale value far more often than any other piece of gear, which come to think of it is another great reason to invest most of your budget into them when assembling a rig
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Just got the Peluso's from UPS man a few minutes ago!!
They're so shiny... :spin: :spin:
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Just got the Peluso's from UPS man a few minutes ago!!
They're so shiny... :spin: :spin:
hey
how do you like them
I am considering them, as they seem to be very nice mics...
anyone ever run the Omni caps with them?
I am not not nor ever been a fan of hyper sound, I know some folks like to run them, I like regular old cards
and would also like omnis for certain situations...
really would be psyched for tube omnis... but doubt I can ever afford them...
so how do you like your
pleusos?
thanx
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I really think they sound great! I couldn't be happier for the moment. Until some cash comes my way and I start upgrading again. But in all sincerity, even if I did upgrade to something better, I would hold onto these because they are that good. I only have the card caps for now but I'm looking to get the other sets as well. Just not right now. I have a Black Crowes & North Mississippi Allstars performance from Red Rocks 9-9-07 over at etree if you want a listen.