Topic: Cardioids - what's the next step?

[Mr.Scully]

I have used SP-CMC-8 for taping rock and metal gigs many times. I was always quite happy about the quality with one exception and that's the bass level, it was very low. So a year ago I bought the new CA-14 cardioids. They are significantly better in terms of bass than SP-CMC-8, in most other aspects they are almost identical with the SP-CMC-8. But overall CA-14 do sound a bit better than SP-CMC-8.

Here are two shows I have recorded with the CA-14 mics with battery box:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHRJHJzWxTY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxNFDHCKLSg

What do you think about the sound? Both venues are not very good for taping (one is an open-air stadium, the other one is an ice-hockey arena used for big rock concerts). I think the result is good but perhaps it could be even better? What's the next step if I want to use cardioids - DPA, Nakamichi, Schoeps...? Which models? Is there anything really good anything around the $400 mark?

[F.O.Bean]

Well, it's up to you. Go to archive.org under the live music archive and listen, listen, listen

[acidjack]

For $400 you won't get anything that is really better than what you have.

For a rig that is massively better than what you have and has a fairly tried-and-true reputation, look to either Beyerdynamic CK930s or MBHO KA200Ns.  I have just started running the MBHOs as a situational mic for their crisper highs and bump in vocal presence vs. my more accurate other mics.  For stealth, I think you'd almost always want that. 

The MBHOs will be more than $400 but a lot less than Schoeps.  The caps will run about $600/pr from Dale Pro Audio, plus $400 for the capsule attachments.  You'll need another $300 or so for the Naiant tinybox and some amount of money for the proper cabling (I'd guess less than $100 from Gakidis or Darktrain). 

That $1400 rig will be compact and comparable to anything in the top class.  And that's the price for a brand new one; you can do a bit better if you can find used.

The Beyer route may be a hair cheaper; I'm more familiar with the pricing of the MBHO setup.

Personally, I would not waste a lot of dough on interim upgrades that won't give much return on your investment.  I know because I've tried, with several sub-$1000 but greater than $300 mics.  All of the "interim upgrade" mics were the ones I ended up selling off; the stuff at the high end and the stuff at the lower end had a lot more value to me. 

If you are interested in the MBHOs, I'd look at the MBHO team in the Team section; also look on LMA for some of Sebastian's stuff.  He runs MBHO>tinybox and his pulls are pretty sick IMO.

[F.O.Bean]

I ran mbhos for 4 years. They are def a quality mic and I have a lot of killer pulls, but IMO, they're not in the same league as schoeps. If you're recording a lot of metal, I'd recommend mbhos as well. They will get more highs/vocals in the mix, and won't sound as dark as most mics

[Mr.Scully]

I focus mainly on stealth taping of rock or hard rock concerts, something like the mentioned Foo Fighters, Metallica, also Queen... often big halls (15000-20000 people), some stadiums (40000 people) but also some small venues (1000). I know that kind of suggests I should have more mics for different types of venues? :-)

What do you think of the sound in the two youtube videos of mine that I had posted?

[acidjack]

I focus mainly on stealth taping of rock or hard rock concerts, something like the mentioned Foo Fighters, Metallica, also Queen... often big halls (15000-20000 people), some stadiums (40000 people) but also some small venues (1000). I know that kind of suggests I should have more mics for different types of venues? :-)

What do you think of the sound in the two youtube videos of mine that I had posted?

I think if you are recording from a sub-optimal location like in that Foo Fighters video, buying more expensive mics is a waste.  What's good for video is often no so good for audio.  Having good audio is all about being in the sweet spot, usually somewhere pretty centered, but definitely not the side of a balcony with a directional mic.  It looks like your Metallica spot was much better audio-wise.  It's a bit hard to judge sound quality from an extremely lossy YouTube vid, though it seems like it sounds pretty good. MBHOs would certainly make the sound better.

I think the MBHOs seem pretty perfect for what you're doing, as the louder rock in particular benefits from their more bright sound. 

Schoeps are "better" than them for many reasons, build quality being one, but they also cost a lot more than the rig I suggested, and I am less convinced they even are "better" for stealthing the type of rock shows you're talking about.

[F.O.Bean]

I would look into the ka500hn hyper caps for the mbhos

[nicegrin]

I have owned the ck930s but sold them as they are too dark and muddy for my taste.
You might want to look at the Milab vm-44 links. To me they sound just right. Full lows and crisp highs.
I have both Schoeps and Milabs and while both are great I find the Milab sound abit more to my taste.
I also agree with acidjack that there is really no point in buying the interim mics in the $500-$1200 range.
Good luck.

[Mr.Scully]

Thanks for all your opinions, I have read them and saved them for future needs ;-)

I guess I'll keep the CA-14 a for another year or two, they did a good job yesterday (again, I was recording the show from the balcony):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQLnuWzqBac

The only thing I don't like about the CA-14 is the small battery box ("ugly") because the mic jack does not fit there very well and unplugs itself from time to time :-/ Similar thing used to happen to me with the Sound Professionals battery box which has switches on it (bass roll off etc.) which kept switching in my pocket. As a result at least once a year my recording is ruined (silent), no matter which battery box I use :-/

[Brian Skalinder]

FWIW, I don't hear a lack of bass in any of the samples you posted.  I think they sound quite good, considering the location for each.

I agree with the three main comments:  you don't have many (any?) choices for stealth cardioids in the $400 range, better mics in the locations from which you recorded won't make a huge difference, and better seats would have a much bigger impact.  Better seats, of course, aren't always easy to come by, especially for large arena shows.

And I'll add one other consideration:

• Learn to perform some basic post-processing.  If you find the bass too low (I don't in the samples you posted, but you should make the recording how you want it to sound), boost it.  Too much bass, lower it.  Too "boomy", reduce the bass in the specific frequency range contributing to the "boominess".  Not enough high frequencies, raise them.  Etc.  A cautionary note:  it's really easy to overdo and / or mess up post-processing.  When done well, it can have a substantially positive impact on the sound (and the better the initial recording, the more positive results the post-processing may achieve).  When done with mediocrity, it can make a small positive or negative impact on the sound.  When done poorly, it has a BIG negative impact. This isn't meant to scare you off, just to encourage you to go slowly, don't use too heavy a hand at first, and play around a lot to figure it all out.  Learning some post-processing won't deliver a quick, instant-gratification fix, but over time you'll get better at it and may be pleasantly surprised with the results.

[F.O.Bean]

FWIW, I don't hear a lack of bass in any of the samples you posted.  I think they sound quite good, considering the location for each.

I agree with the three main comments:  you don't have many (any?) choices for stealth cardioids in the $400 range, better mics in the locations from which you recorded won't make a huge difference, and better seats would have a much bigger impact.  Better seats, of course, aren't always easy to come by, especially for large arena shows.

And I'll add one other consideration:

• Learn to perform some basic post-processing.  If you find the bass too low (I don't in the samples you posted, but you should make the recording how you want it to sound), boost it.  Too much bass, lower it.  Too "boomy", reduce the bass in the specific frequency range contributing to the "boominess".  Not enough high frequencies, raise them.  Etc.  A cautionary note:  it's really easy to overdo and / or mess up post-processing.  When done well, it can have a substantially positive impact on the sound (and the better the initial recording, the more positive results the post-processing may achieve).  When done with mediocrity, it can make a small positive or negative impact on the sound.  When done poorly, it has a BIG negative impact. This isn't meant to scare you off, just to encourage you to go slowly, don't use too heavy a hand at first, and play around a lot to figure it all out.  Learning some post-processing won't deliver a quick, instant-gratification fix, but over time you'll get better at it and may be pleasantly surprised with the results.

Well said Brian!

[Mr.Scully]

FWIW, I don't hear a lack of bass in any of the samples you posted.  I think they sound quite good, considering the location for each.

I agree with the three main comments:  you don't have many (any?) choices for stealth cardioids in the $400 range, better mics in the locations from which you recorded won't make a huge difference, and better seats would have a much bigger impact.  Better seats, of course, aren't always easy to come by, especially for large arena shows.

And I'll add one other consideration:

• Learn to perform some basic post-processing.  If you find the bass too low (I don't in the samples you posted, but you should make the recording how you want it to sound), boost it.  Too much bass, lower it.  Too "boomy", reduce the bass in the specific frequency range contributing to the "boominess".  Not enough high frequencies, raise them.  Etc.  A cautionary note:  it's really easy to overdo and / or mess up post-processing.  When done well, it can have a substantially positive impact on the sound (and the better the initial recording, the more positive results the post-processing may achieve).  When done with mediocrity, it can make a small positive or negative impact on the sound.  When done poorly, it has a BIG negative impact. This isn't meant to scare you off, just to encourage you to go slowly, don't use too heavy a hand at first, and play around a lot to figure it all out.  Learning some post-processing won't deliver a quick, instant-gratification fix, but over time you'll get better at it and may be pleasantly surprised with the results.

Bass level was low with the SP-CMC-8 mics. With CA-14 (and that's where my samples come from) the bass is perfectly OK. Only the overall sound with CA-14 is slightly less "clear" than with SP, it lacks a bit treble but I do postprocessing - I always open the file in Goldwave and besides fade-ins and fade-outs I play a bit with equalizer. When using CA-14 adding treble always improves the sound. I think my latest recording (the mentioned Muse gig on Thursday) sounds better than my previous attempts, I like the sound.

[blg]

FWIW, I've taped about 30 shows this year with the CA-14 cards and have only done any sort of EQ work on 3 of them.  One was Garbage at the Palladium and the sound was insanely bass heavy.  The majority of the shows I've taped have been in venues that hold less than 2500 people and I think about 12 or so were in clubs with a capacity of 500 or less.  Needless to say, I've been extremely happy with these mics and like them better than my old DPA 4061s.  Since I'll never go back to Omnis, I've thought several times about upgrading to Schoeps or similar.  Financially I'm not in a position to do it at the moment, but that will more than likely change fairly soon. 

Although, I always come back to the same question, will spending 10 times more on better mics yield 10 times the result, and the answer is no.  Will I get better results, more than likely the answer is yes, but since I  pretty much everything, it's making it difficult to pull the trigger on the upgrade.  If you look up my name on Dime, I post samples of everything I up.

[jagraham]

I know the question is regarding cardioid mics but do consider omnis.  OP mentioned recording in many different types of venues.  Omnis are ideal IMO for when you are close to the stacks or outside with great sound.

[obaaron]

I just recorded Karl Denson last night with CA-14 Omnis and came out awesome!  Was about 25 feet from the PA stacks at the Belly Up in San Diego.

[F.O.Bean]

i love ca14 mics. cant wait til mine come from spain! they are right up there w $800 mics IMO

[bryonsos]

I don't think many would argue about this being the way to go in that price range:

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=159367.0

[adrianf74]

Bryonsos: You're spot on with referring to Busman's sale.   For $375, that's a smoking hot deal (and a great value for the money).  The OP's looking for something good -- and if he can run open -- then these are worth considering.

obaaron and jagraham: Most definitely.  If I'm up close or outdoors (with good sound), I'll almost always run omnis (and I've got my B3's for that).  The CA-14 omnis are great little mics and served me well when I had them.   

I've pretty much owned every "small" mic available in the sub $800 price range (except for the Sonic Studios stuff) and the sound from most of them is very similar.   I'll choose Church Audio over most of the others because the price can't be beat.   I've had the 4061's, CA-14 omnis and Countryman B3's and I like the B3's for the size and overall sound -- I'm not sure if I liked the CA-14 omnis more or not, however.  For cardioids, I've ended up with AT-853's (card and subcard caps) after a lot of deliberation.  If I hadn't been able to pick up a set from Robb in his last sale, I would've stuck with the CA-14 cards.   The AT-853's > AT-933's (IMHO) but the AT-853's <> CA-14 <> Audix Micro Caps.   It's about what flavour you prefer.

As far as an option between $400 and $900 -- for cards -- there are a few options but none of them make financial sense.   I think it'll be around $1200 or so (with a TinyBox) before you can get some MBHOs or BeyerDynamics but then it's a matter of whether or not you like the sound of "those" mics.

[Brian Skalinder]

I don't think many would argue about this being the way to go in that price range:

Except....

I focus mainly on stealth taping

[blg]

Bryonsos: You're spot on with referring to Busman's sale.   For $375, that's a smoking hot deal (and a great value for the money).  The OP's looking for something good -- and if he can run open -- then these are worth considering.

obaaron and jagraham: Most definitely.  If I'm up close or outdoors (with good sound), I'll almost always run omnis (and I've got my B3's for that).  The CA-14 omnis are great little mics and served me well when I had them.   

I've pretty much owned every "small" mic available in the sub $800 price range (except for the Sonic Studios stuff) and the sound from most of them is very similar.   I'll choose Church Audio over most of the others because the price can't be beat.   I've had the 4061's, CA-14 omnis and Countryman B3's and I like the B3's for the size and overall sound -- I'm not sure if I liked the CA-14 omnis more or not, however.  For cardioids, I've ended up with AT-853's (card and subcard caps) after a lot of deliberation.  If I hadn't been able to pick up a set from Robb in his last sale, I would've stuck with the CA-14 cards.   The AT-853's > AT-933's (IMHO) but the AT-853's <> CA-14 <> Audix Micro Caps.   It's about what flavour you prefer.

As far as an option between $400 and $900 -- for cards -- there are a few options but none of them make financial sense.   I think it'll be around $1200 or so (with a TinyBox) before you can get some MBHOs or BeyerDynamics but then it's a matter of whether or not you like the sound of "those" mics.

Just to clarify, i know there are definite reasons to use omnis over cards, but for me i've had several instances this year where if I had been running them, the recording what have most likely been unlistenable due to non-stop crowd chatter.  I also don't normally do stack tapes and if I do, I don't make that decision until after i'm at the venue. Both of my Afghan Whigs recordings were done 3' from the right stacks and they ended up being some of my best.   I'm sure the bass would have been better had I been running omnis, but I can't complain about what I got.

As far as taping open, even bands i've seen this year that allow it (which is very few), often times the venue does not.  Many venues here have "union restrictions," whatever that means, and either don't allow taping and/or charge a hefty fee for board access.

[F.O.Bean]

I plan on running my CA14 Cards/Omnis>CA 9100>M10 as my 2nd main rig, until I get my mk21>KCY[need]>TB[need]>M10[need] rig running HOPEFULLY for next summer. But if I dont get my 2nd schoeps rig going for summer 2013, I will be more than happy with my CA14>9100>M10 setup for side stages And besides, its ALL ABOUT location/location/location Which Im usually in the right spot for

[bryonsos]

I don't think many would argue about this being the way to go in that price range:

Except....

I focus mainly on stealth taping

Oops, read past that part. It does say "mainly" though, so in that price range they're still a strong contender.

[Brian Skalinder]

Oops, read past that part. It does say "mainly" though, so in that price range they're still a strong contender.

Heh...I'd composed a full reply before catching it, and had to re-do the whole thing.  No question the BSC's are a great value for open taping.

[bryonsos]

OK, now that I've read the whole thread, I'm going to (predictably) chime in for omnis. If you're going to be up front, doing 007 work, and you're not sure where *exactly* you're going to be in relation to the stacks, omnis are the way to go. Even in open taping situations, if you have a screamer or a loud clapper nearby, cards will hear them too. Don't be fooled by the TS propaganda that says the directionality of cards or hypers will reduce the crowd noise, it's crap 90% of the time. Those mics WILL help compensate for reflection, reverb and other stuff that you get from a bad room or crappy PA, but if you're in the impact zone of the sound it doesn't matter. Run omnis at all costs, in the face of danger up front. I have B3s, and if I taped metal I'd run them with one of the grids that give a high end boost, but since I record mostly Americana and jam bands, I'm happy with the flat grids. YMMV.

[acidjack]

OK, now that I've read the whole thread, I'm going to (predictably) chime in for omnis. If you're going to be up front, doing 007 work, and you're not sure where *exactly* you're going to be in relation to the stacks, omnis are the way to go. Even in open taping situations, if you have a screamer or a loud clapper nearby, cards will hear them too. Don't be fooled by the TS propaganda that says the directionality of cards or hypers will reduce eliminate the crowd noise, it's crap 90% of the time. Those mics WILL help compensate for reflection, reverb and other stuff that you get from a bad room or crappy PA, but if you're in the impact zone of the sound it doesn't matter. Run omnis at all costs, in the face of danger up front. I have B3s, and if I taped metal I'd run them with one of the grids that give a high end boost, but since I record mostly Americana and jam bands, I'm happy with the flat grids. YMMV.

FTFY  There's little question that a cardiod or hypercardiod or shotgun mic will pick up less off-axis noise of all types than an omni.  Whether it is a substantial-enough reduction vis a vis other factors is the question.  I've played with this by running my 414s in various settings at the same show between different bands.  There's no question the omnis have MORE crowd noise, but a ton more...?  Maybe not.  In open taping.

My experience in stealth taping has been: (1) running cards instead of omnis will definitely reduce the amount of sound of people behind you and off to the side but (2) unless those cardiods are awesome, they will probably sound much less realistic than a quality small omni.

That said, as far as a metal show is concerned, I completely agree with your advice.  Also, I personally usually stealth with omnis.

[F.O.Bean]

OK, now that I've read the whole thread, I'm going to (predictably) chime in for omnis. If you're going to be up front, doing 007 work, and you're not sure where *exactly* you're going to be in relation to the stacks, omnis are the way to go. Even in open taping situations, if you have a screamer or a loud clapper nearby, cards will hear them too. Don't be fooled by the TS propaganda that says the directionality of cards or hypers will reduce the crowd noise, it's crap 90% of the time. Those mics WILL help compensate for reflection, reverb and other stuff that you get from a bad room or crappy PA, but if you're in the impact zone of the sound it doesn't matter. Run omnis at all costs, in the face of danger up front. I have B3s, and if I taped metal I'd run them with one of the grids that give a high end boost, but since I record mostly Americana and jam bands, I'm happy with the flat grids. YMMV.

Agreed, it's more about mic height than running cards or hypers. Just to be safe, I run hypers AND run pretty high. That equals not much chatter at all!

[Mr.Scully]

Cardioids vs. omnis... since I often end up somwhere at the balcony (very far from the sweet spot), I have to use cardioids (I think). For small clubs I will do some more tests. Once I did compare CA-14 omnis vs. CA-14 cardioids vs. SP-CMC-8 in a small (500 people) club and found only very minor differences that didn't persuade me to use omnis instead of cardioids.

[adrianf74]

What they (Bryonsos and AcidJack) said.

I've run all sorts of omnis and cards (small capsule mics) over the past two decades.  I've also had the chance to run AKG 481/3's a handful of times and attend shows with somebody who runs them religiously.  I think that gives me a good insight into what "works" and doesn't.

In open taping, I'll generally run cards (or hypers) if I'm at the board, DFC.  It always depends on the size of the room, the height and configuration of the stacks, and the distance from the stage to the board itself as to which capsule on the AKG's I'll choose (or my buddy will choose).   Then there's the small capsule mics and 007 shows...

I've run everything from CSB to Squidly Diddly to SP-CMC-8's (AT-933/c) to CA-14 (omnis and cards) to the DPA 4061 to the Countryman B3 and (soon) the AT-853/c and /sc.  In clubs, I always try to get up close if I can (but not to the point where the stacks are too directly above me) -- maybe 10-15 feet from them.  In this case, it'll _ALWAYS_ be omnis.   If I get stuck back further, then often I'll choose the cards but I find they sound 'more artificial' and less 'true' to what I heard at the show.  And then there's the odd arena show where I'm *never* where I am.  In those shows, it's cards all the ways.  I've even run the SP-CMC-8's 5th row at a Cure show 4.5 years ago and that's probably better sounding than it would've been if I'd used omnis.   I'm sure the noise rejection on the omnis isn't as good as it would be with the cards, however, I'd rather have "natural" sounding recordings when I can.  If you're stuck next to a drunken wook or Chatty Cathy, you're pooched and your recording's toast.  Doesn't matter if it was with the cards or the omnis.   I've heard many good card recordings ruined by wooks (both open and 007). 

So. I generally choose my omnis but look forward to playing with my AT-853/c and /sc caps.  I've heard some recordings made with the /sc and they're quite natural sounding while getting rid of a little bit of the noise behind the mics.

[shownomarcy]

Hi Mr.Scully! This was a good topic, I'm in similar situation. I have AT 853 mics + Edirol R-09HR and I also try to record both audio and video. It's really not easy, I must say. Sometimes when Im not forced to stealth rec, I set my mics at the soundboard in a club and I go somewhere else to record video. But if I'm in a big stadium and need to choose, I choose a place what is better for the video... what a shame!

I was also thinking about upgrading but Im realizing that the results are sometimes SOO much depends on the venue, your place etc. so that sometimes counts even more than a little better mic.

[robeti]

But if I'm in a big stadium and need to choose, I choose a place what is better for the video... what a shame!

I was also thinking about upgrading but Im realizing that the results are sometimes SOO much depends on the venue, your place etc. so that sometimes counts even more than a little better mic.

Same here. When I'm stealthing audio + video at the same time, video always has priority.