Topic: Jazz Nonet Setup Specifically for AUD Recording Session?

[BayTaynt3d]

I'm going to be helping a friend record a "demo" of original Jazz compositions in a nonet format. He's done other records in the past, and he just wants a recording that can capture the material good enough to start shopping it around for an eventual studio recording. I've warned him that I'm not a studio recording kind of guy, I'm a field audience recordist, but he was totally cool with that. So, this is going to take place in a nice dry recital hall / performance space for the specific purpose of recording, which means we can set them up in any configuration we want in order to capture the best sound. I've got an R4 and four condensers (omnis, cards, and hypers) and two LDs (my friends) available to me -- so this is going to be a strictly four-channel affair (no need to even suggest a mixing board, cause that's not how we're going to do this). I've thought of a million different options already, and most are built around a single stereo pair with reinforcement from the other two mics. I'm actually most worried about vocals, so the thought is to have the vocalists sing into one of the LDs on a third-channel. He said they were going to use monitors so they can hear themselves, but I'm worried those vocal monitors are going to screw things up bad, not sure though. I'm also heavily leaning towards a J-Disc or split omnis as the main stereo pair since this will be a controlled environment, and I'm hoping to move the drum kit and brass back a bit and the quiter instruments forward a bit to help with the balance. Below you will find the instrumentation, any suggestions are most welcome!

2 female vocals
trumpet
sax/clarinet
violin (amplified)
vibes
guitar
bass
drums

The recording session is tomorrow at 1pm, so time is short for my strategization...

[dean]

Damn I hate vocalists!   

First, I strongly recommend you try to get ahold of Teddy or Moke, who record in these types of situations frequently.

Caveat:  I'm no expert, and this is only how I'd approach this.  I've never had the specific situation you discuss, but I've run a bunch of onstage when an unexpected vocalist has shown up.  I've had surprisingly good results of accidentally capturing the vocals with Healy Method Omni's, and I've had last minute luck by placing a pair of cards close to the vocalists or the vocal monitors.  It won't sound spot-on professional, but given that you're not going to have a mixer and you're limited to 4 tracks, here's my suggestion:

Suggestion 1:  Split Omni's on stage, behind or on the same "line" as the vocalists.  DIN cards on stage, about 4' in front of the two vocalists (try to get the vocalists to space about 5 ' apart).

Suggestion 2:  On stage Healy Method Omni's 3' in front of the 2 vocalists (try to get the vox'ists to space about 3' apart), then at stage lip, run DIN or ORTF cards (config depends on how wide the spread of musicians are, so most likely DIN.

Suggestion 3:  Stage lip Split Omni's tapered to a single channel.  Stage lip center DIN (or ORTF) cards.  Another card directly capturing the vocal monitor.  If there's a separate monitor for each vocalist, then 2 cards tapered down to a single channel.

Approaches 1 & 2 allow you to not have to "directly" mic the vocalists, saving a channel for you.  Additionally, I doubt that the monitors will do much harm, and will probably help with the vocal capture, over all.  The risk, of course, is an echoic effect, but it's probably a low risk.

Good luck, Bay Taper!!!  I bet you'll do great with this, whichever course you eventually settle on!!!

[RebelRebel]

Well, Jazz recordings generally do better with a close mic'd sort of sound, and room ambience is less important than in a say, a classical recording. As you only have 4 channels, I would suggest doing just what you have already thought of. a main pair supported by a supporting" pair to tie it all together. In a classical situation it would be the opposite. The brunt of the sound would be coming from the pair that is farther back, with spot mics mixed in to taste.I would use mid/side as my main pair with a pair of spaced cardiods(or omnis) a bit farther back(not too far back, ambience isnt so key here). Mid Side will give you more control over the width in post.

I'm going to be helping a friend record a "demo" of original Jazz compositions in a nonet format. He's done other records in the past, and he just wants a recording that can capture the material good enough to start shopping it around for an eventual studio recording. I've warned him that I'm not a studio recording kind of guy, I'm a field audience recordist, but he was totally cool with that. So, this is going to take place in a nice dry recital hall / performance space for the specific purpose of recording, which means we can set them up in any configuration we want in order to capture the best sound. I've got an R4 and four condensers (omnis, cards, and hypers) and two LDs (my friends) available to me -- so this is going to be a strictly four-channel affair (no need to even suggest a mixing board, cause that's not how we're going to do this). I've thought of a million different options already, and most are built around a single stereo pair with reinforcement from the other two mics. I'm actually most worried about vocals, so the thought is to have the vocalists sing into one of the LDs on a third-channel. He said they were going to use monitors so they can hear themselves, but I'm worried those vocal monitors are going to screw things up bad, not sure though. I'm also heavily leaning towards a J-Disc or split omnis as the main stereo pair since this will be a controlled environment, and I'm hoping to move the drum kit and brass back a bit and the quiter instruments forward a bit to help with the balance. Below you will find the instrumentation, any suggestions are most welcome!

2 female vocals
trumpet
sax/clarinet
violin (amplified)
vibes
guitar
bass
drums

The recording session is tomorrow at 1pm, so time is short for my strategization...

[BayTaynt3d]

What about the vox? Also, I don't have a fig 8, so no MS for me.

I could see using an XY pair up front and getting the vox somewhat right in front of it with the rest of the band in a semi-circle around it. Then I could see a split omni pair as satalites around the XY pair but just a tad back and higher so as to pick up a little more of the mixed sound from everything?

But what about the idea of a single main pair plus an LD specifically for the vox to sing into? I could see something like DIN/NOS with the band in a semi-circle around it, then a single LD for the vocalists (although not sure where to put them), and then maybe a single omni up high, back a little, and centered to pick up a bit more of the full mix and room (which is dry to begin with I've been told).

Fundamentally, this is the question I've been struggling with: (1) use two stereo pairs or (2) use one stereo pair and reinforce with the other two channels. Tough call. If there were no vocals, I think I'd choose #1 without hesitation, but #2 seems kind of attractive because it'll allow for more flexibility in post with the vocal-to-instrument balance don't you think? If I go with approach #1, where'd you put the vocals?

[RebelRebel]

Ok....how about this..an ORTF pair (or XY pair) covering the instruments, and 2 LDs for vocal mics? (or one for the vocal and one for someone to step up and do an instrumental solo?) Id put the band in a semi circle around the main pair, and have the 2 LDs up in front of that. I wouldnt worry about Ambience, again..Jazz recordings get most of their sound from the close mics, and only use ambient mics to tie it together. you dont have the luxury of spotting every instrument, so I suggest just a main pair and the two LDCs covering vocals..

What about the vox? Also, I don't have a fig 8, so no MS for me.

I could see using an XY pair up front and getting the vox somewhat right in front of it with the rest of the band in a semi-circle around it. Then I could see a split omni pair as satalites around the XY pair but just a tad back and higher so as to pick up a little more of the mixed sound from everything?

But what about the idea of a single main pair plus an LD specifically for the vox to sing into? I could see something like DIN/NOS with the band in a semi-circle around it, then a single LD for the vocalists (although not sure where to put them), and then maybe a single omni up high, back a little, and centered to pick up a bit more of the full mix and room (which is dry to begin with I've been told).

Fundamentally, this is the question I've been struggling with: (1) use two stereo pairs or (2) use one stereo pair and reinforce with the other two channels. Tough call. If there were no vocals, I think I'd choose #1 without hesitation, but #2 seems kind of attractive because it'll allow for more flexibility in post with the vocal-to-instrument balance don't you think? If I go with approach #1, where'd you put the vocals?

[Gutbucket]

Too bad I left San Fran..  I'd love to come help/listen.  Miss it out there.

[BayTaynt3d]

Ok....how about this..an ORTF pair (or XY pair) covering the instruments, and 2 LDs for vocal mics? (or one for the vocal and one for someone to step up and do an instrumental solo?) Id put the band in a semi circle around the main pair, and have the 2 LDs up in front of that. I wouldnt worry about Ambience, again..Jazz recordings get most of their sound from the close mics, and only use ambient mics to tie it together. you dont have the luxury of spotting every instrument, so I suggest just a main pair and the two LDCs covering vocals..

What about the vox? Also, I don't have a fig 8, so no MS for me.

I could see using an XY pair up front and getting the vox somewhat right in front of it with the rest of the band in a semi-circle around it. Then I could see a split omni pair as satalites around the XY pair but just a tad back and higher so as to pick up a little more of the mixed sound from everything?

But what about the idea of a single main pair plus an LD specifically for the vox to sing into? I could see something like DIN/NOS with the band in a semi-circle around it, then a single LD for the vocalists (although not sure where to put them), and then maybe a single omni up high, back a little, and centered to pick up a bit more of the full mix and room (which is dry to begin with I've been told).

Fundamentally, this is the question I've been struggling with: (1) use two stereo pairs or (2) use one stereo pair and reinforce with the other two channels. Tough call. If there were no vocals, I think I'd choose #1 without hesitation, but #2 seems kind of attractive because it'll allow for more flexibility in post with the vocal-to-instrument balance don't you think? If I go with approach #1, where'd you put the vocals?

Yeah, I'm liking the sounds of this. It's practical, and I think it'll work. I'm tempted to go with j-disc omnis as the main pair, the band spread out semi-circle around that with some instruments closer or farther from the j-disc depending on their general loudness, and then one/two LDs in front of the j-disc on the vocalists like you mentioned. That way, the main pair will pick up the vocals, but if we need to bring them up in the mix (and with a bit more smoothness from the LDs) we can. Makes me wonder where EXACTLY should the vocalists be placed cause I was thinking the drumkit should be centered, but not sure it's a good idea to stick the vocalists right in front of the drummer (the LDs will pick up the drums too won't they?).

I kind of like the option of ORTF too, but seriously, I'm a total ORTF virgin -- I've literally NEVER run that config. There's something about that 120-degree angle that scares me away. What seems appealing about it here is that wide angle may help attenuate the drums/brass if they are perfectly centered, while helping to raise the balance of the quieter instruments if they are placed more to the left and right sides?

Hmmm... Many combos to contemplate, so thanks for the brainstorming. I'm liking your approach in general, and point taken about the ambiance vs. direct sound, but the actual physical location of the instruments and vocalists in this semi-circle still has me wondering...

[BayTaynt3d]

One other thing, I could run a second -- albeit not as HQ -- rig to get two more channels:

2xMics > FP24 > H120 @ 16 bit

In addition to:

4xMics > R4 @ 24 bit

But I'm not sure this guy will want to deal with the syncing hassles (or know how to really). He's going to be mixing/mastering this himself, and I have no idea how well the R4 and H120 will hold sync. I'm pretty sure it'd be pretty easy if I "slated" the start and end of the recording (just letting the recording run the entire session without stopping) with a LOUD clap at the beginning and another loud clap at the end, but not sure if it is worth relying on that approach, might be risky if I lose the H120 source or it is screwed somehow...

[Gutbucket]

Makes me wonder where EXACTLY should the vocalists be placed cause I was thinking the drumkit should be centered, but not sure it's a good idea to stick the vocalists right in front of the drummer (the LDs will pick up the drums too won't they?).

No audience right?  Don't forget that since you're using omni's on the J-disk you can utilize the back or audience side to place your sources too.  In otherwords you could arrange the instuments around the 'regular' stage side of the pair, with the drums centered in the stereo image, and place the singers facing the band and the back side of the J-disk (backs to the imaginary audience).  Then your LD's used for vocal reinforcement, if set to a directional patten would reject the direct sound from the drums and alot of the rest of the band too.

[dean]

Makes me wonder where EXACTLY should the vocalists be placed cause I was thinking the drumkit should be centered, but not sure it's a good idea to stick the vocalists right in front of the drummer (the LDs will pick up the drums too won't they?).

No audience right?  Don't forget that since you're using omni's on the J-disk you can utilize the back or audience side to place your sources too.  In otherwords you could arrange the instuments around the 'regular' stage side of the pair, with the drums centered in the stereo image, and place the singers facing the band and the back side of the J-disk (backs to the imaginary audience).  Then your LD's used for vocal reinforcement, if set to a directional patten would reject the direct sound from the drums and alot of the rest of the band too.

Yep!  Great thinking there.  A nice, atypical opportunity!

[ghellquist]

Ok....how about this..an ORTF pair (or XY pair) covering the instruments, and 2 LDs for vocal mics?

I kind of like the option of ORTF too, but seriously, I'm a total ORTF virgin -- I've literally NEVER run that config. There's something about that 120-degree angle that scares me away. What seems appealing about it here is that wide angle may help attenuate the drums/brass if they are perfectly centered, while helping to raise the balance of the quieter instruments if they are placed more to the left and right sides?

Teddy-s suggestion is how I would do it as well. One pair for most of the sound and the spots for the melody to allow a good mix at the end (wasn't there a jazz song called "it is all about the melody").

ORTF is just a starting point. I think the French radio would have sacked anyone not setting up a pair of cardioids exactly at 17cm and 110 degrees. For the rest of us it does not have to be that exact. There are variations like NOS and DIN with a bit different values which I take as a confirmation that other setups are equally as valid. So if it sounds good, it is. It helps to make a cardboard template and to test in advance. Setting up two typical SDC-s in a "perfect" ORTF can be a bit tricky.

I would pan things like a live performance, probably having the bass and drums together to one side (I tend to like it on the left side). Song and melody in the middle (most important things in the middle). The rest on the other side.

Good luck / Gunnar

[dean]

Check this thread for an excellent configuration template (including ORTF):
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=62359.0

[BayTaynt3d]

Makes me wonder where EXACTLY should the vocalists be placed cause I was thinking the drumkit should be centered, but not sure it's a good idea to stick the vocalists right in front of the drummer (the LDs will pick up the drums too won't they?).

No audience right?  Don't forget that since you're using omni's on the J-disk you can utilize the back or audience side to place your sources too.  In otherwords you could arrange the instuments around the 'regular' stage side of the pair, with the drums centered in the stereo image, and place the singers facing the band and the back side of the J-disk (backs to the imaginary audience).  Then your LD's used for vocal reinforcement, if set to a directional patten would reject the direct sound from the drums and alot of the rest of the band too.

Yeah, I thought about that option as well, but it's worth noting that omnis do have some directionality to them. So, anyone "behind" the direction of the omnis might have their spectrum tampered with a bit. One thought I had to handle that was to raise my stand a bit higher, then use my superclamp on the stand such that I could get the mics on the j-disc pointing down instead of forward. But not sure if that's a good idea either -- pointing the mics at the ground that is. But maybe that'd be OK if they were high enough in the air? That approach would give some real flexibility in the setup because we could use a full circle instead of a semi-circle, and like you said, we could setup the vocalists on the other side (and maybe some of the quiter instruments too, put them on the other side and closer, while the louder instruments go on the "normal" side and farther away a bit?). Thing is, I'm not sure I want to get too fancy here because we have one shot at this, so not sure it's the right time/place to experiement like that? Hmmm...

[RebelRebel]

I would second that...using all the mics as I suggested before, and then with the 2nd recorder/preamp, throw an "ambience" pair in to tie it all together.
that way the meat of the music is all one one clock, and the ambience(secondary) can be mixed in later to taste. with jazz, i find that the more the merrier...

One other thing, I could run a second -- albeit not as HQ -- rig to get two more channels:

2xMics > FP24 > H120 @ 16 bit

In addition to:

4xMics > R4 @ 24 bit

But I'm not sure this guy will want to deal with the syncing hassles (or know how to really). He's going to be mixing/mastering this himself, and I have no idea how well the R4 and H120 will hold sync. I'm pretty sure it'd be pretty easy if I "slated" the start and end of the recording (just letting the recording run the entire session without stopping) with a LOUD clap at the beginning and another loud clap at the end, but not sure if it is worth relying on that approach, might be risky if I lose the H120 source or it is screwed somehow...

[Ryan Sims]

I have no suggestions, I just wanted to comment that thread is fascinating.  T's around.

[Gutbucket]

Yeah, I thought about that option as well, but it's worth noting that omnis do have some directionality to them. So, anyone "behind" the direction of the omnis might have their spectrum tampered with a bit. One thought I had to handle that was to raise my stand a bit higher, then use my superclamp on the stand such that I could get the mics on the j-disc pointing down instead of forward.

If you do want to try this, I wouldn't worry too much about the roll-off at the back of the omnis, especially if only the close miced vocals are back there.  You'll get plenty of vocal sparkle from the LD's.  The vibes probably wouldn't suffer much either if you needed to [slide them around to that side to] make room.  I'd be hesitant to raise the J-disk too high or you'll get less separation from leakage underneath if everyone is in pretty close, and a little less close-in Jazz immediacy.  Try the disk vs. the ORTF pair if you can and pick whatever works better if you can get a quick listen.

[dean]

I have no suggestions, I just wanted to comment that thread is fascinating.  T's around.

Backatcha!  This is the stuff that makes TS.com a GREAT site!

[ScottT]

I have no suggestions, I just wanted to comment that thread is fascinating.  T's around.

No doubt!

So how did it go?

[BayTaynt3d]

Well, here's a short version, maybe I'll write more later...

There was a lot of people crammed into a semi-small space, and I ended up not really being able to direct the setup very much -- just didn't seem entirely appropriate (or totally feasible either, but there's a longer version of that story). However, that wasn't too much of a big deal, and at first listen the recording came out pretty damn good -- although the room was small, the acoustics were excellent with treatments on the walls and a carpeted floor, nice and dead/dry for recording.

So, I ran J-Disc omnis as my main stereo pair, and that was just awesomely transparent with a very good image. I then mic'ed the vocalists (who were to the left) with a single LD. The vocalists also sang into 2 SM58s that were feeding a monitor, which was a good and bad thing (the monitor helped me pick up the vocals a bit more, but it didn't sound as pure and the monitor had a slight hiss which was audible at quiet moments). I then had room for one more channel, so I put a card near the bass/vibes thinking they'd be the quietest on the stereo pair mix. After critically listening during the first 15 minutes of rehearsing the first track, I made three crucial changes. I had the guitarist turn up his amp a tiny bit, the violinist turn up his amp a tiny bit, and then I moved that extra card to be directly under the vibes only and away from the bass because I could hear the bass no problem on the omni pair but I couldn't hear the vibes at all despite his playing "louder than normal." Those minor tweaks, made a huge difference for the rest of the day, and I think the recording will serve its "demo" purpose quite nicely...

So, major thanks for all of the ideas guys, the brainstorming helped me be able to deal with the situation as it unfolded and it looks like it made for a successful recording (maybe even one of my personal best)!

[dean]

   Fantastic!  Nice work, Bay!  Big +T for ya! 

[Gutbucket]

Way to go!  Strong work adjusting to the situation, certainly sounded like a good time for you.  Thanks for sharing how it turned out.

[mmmatt]

Well, here's a short version, maybe I'll write more later...

There was a lot of people crammed into a semi-small space, and I ended up not really being able to direct the setup very much -- just didn't seem entirely appropriate (or totally feasible either, but there's a longer version of that story). However, that wasn't too much of a big deal, and at first listen the recording came out pretty damn good -- although the room was small, the acoustics were excellent with treatments on the walls and a carpeted floor, nice and dead/dry for recording.

So, I ran J-Disc omnis as my main stereo pair, and that was just awesomely transparent with a very good image. I then mic'ed the vocalists (who were to the left) with a single LD. The vocalists also sang into 2 SM58s that were feeding a monitor, which was a good and bad thing (the monitor helped me pick up the vocals a bit more, but it didn't sound as pure and the monitor had a slight hiss which was audible at quiet moments). I then had room for one more channel, so I put a card near the bass/vibes thinking they'd be the quietest on the stereo pair mix. After critically listening during the first 15 minutes of rehearsing the first track, I made three crucial changes. I had the guitarist turn up his amp a tiny bit, the violinist turn up his amp a tiny bit, and then I moved that extra card to be directly under the vibes only and away from the bass because I could hear the bass no problem on the omni pair but I couldn't hear the vibes at all despite his playing "louder than normal." Those minor tweaks, made a huge difference for the rest of the day, and I think the recording will serve its "demo" purpose quite nicely...

So, major thanks for all of the ideas guys, the brainstorming helped me be able to deal with the situation as it unfolded and it looks like it made for a successful recording (maybe even one of my personal best)!

good job

+T

Matt