Become a Site Supporter and Never see Ads again!

Author Topic: Schoeps MK4 Question  (Read 7599 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Dutchman1101

  • Trade Count: (13)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 2856
  • Gender: Male
Schoeps MK4 Question
« on: January 23, 2008, 09:23:03 PM »
OK, so Schoeps has been making the MK4 for quite a while now. Have they changed the characteristics of the cap at all? I'm sure they have tried using different parts but over the years has the sound changed at all?

I think I have a pretty old pair of MK4's and they don't sound as bass heavy as other MK4's I have heard. I could be completely crazy (witch to some would come as no surprise :P).

The serial numbers are 82431 & 82431. Does anyone have experience in telling how old a Schoeps cap is by the serial number?

Thanks in advance!

Harrison
« Last Edit: January 23, 2008, 10:05:11 PM by Dutchman1101 »

Offline Shawn

  • is old and tired
  • Trade Count: (11)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3250
  • Gender: Male
Re: Schoeps MK4 Question
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2008, 11:12:02 PM »
I don't know much about the first part of your question, but I believe the folks at redding audio can tell you the age of your caps based on the serial number. I think I can dig up the exact age of your mk41s if you are interested.

Offline Dutchman1101

  • Trade Count: (13)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 2856
  • Gender: Male
Re: Schoeps MK4 Question
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2008, 11:43:10 PM »
I don't know much about the first part of your question, but I believe the folks at redding audio can tell you the age of your caps based on the serial number. I think I can dig up the exact age of your mk41s if you are interested.

Thanks Shwan, I e-mailed Redding and Schoeps just to see.

The mk41's I'm not to worried about but I appriciate your offer.

Offline Dutchman1101

  • Trade Count: (13)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 2856
  • Gender: Male
Re: Schoeps MK4 Question
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2008, 09:30:35 AM »
Well in an interesting turn of events my caps are actually 5 years old :o They were purchased in March of 2003.

I wonder why they are so dark grey and not Nextel grey?

Harrison

Offline DSatz

  • Site Supporter
  • Trade Count: (35)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *
  • Posts: 3349
  • Gender: Male
Re: Schoeps MK4 Question
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2008, 02:14:58 PM »
The main aspects of the MK 4 design go back to the 1950s, so there have definitely been small, internal changes all along. (If any manufacturer couldn't manage to improve their products in 50+ years, wouldn't they kind of deserve to go out of business?) But the only audible change to the MK 4 design was made when the serial numbers still had only four digits instead of the six that they have today. The high-frequency response was extended and made flatter, producing the so-called "linearized" CMT-series capsules and their Colette-series successors.

Most of the little changes are a matter of production methods, with the result that MK 4 capsules made in the past five or six years have somewhat less variation in sensitivity and frequency response than capsules made before then. So the odds of a good match between two randomly-selected recent samples are greater than they were before--but that's not something which you could hear by comparing old capsules with newer ones, since their "ideal response curve" hasn't changed.

--best regards
« Last Edit: January 25, 2008, 12:03:22 PM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline jerryfreak

  • No PZ
  • Trade Count: (31)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *
  • Posts: 6205
  • The plural of anecdote is not data
Re: Schoeps MK4 Question
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2008, 12:57:00 AM »
could very well be your caps are dirty and muddy sounding? have they been used in a lot of smoky bars?

schoeps recommends regular cleanings
Unable to post or PM due to arbitrary censorship of people the mod doesn't like. Please email me using the link in my profile if you need to connect

Offline boojum

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3629
  • Gender: Male
Re: Schoeps MK4 Question
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2008, 02:17:57 AM »
FWIW - unless I am i a non-smoking environment I slap on those small gray windshields from Schoeps to protect the diaphragms.
Nov schmoz kapop.

Offline DSatz

  • Site Supporter
  • Trade Count: (35)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *
  • Posts: 3349
  • Gender: Male
Re: Schoeps MK4 Question
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2008, 11:58:12 AM »
jerryfreak, the only capsule for which Schoeps recommends regular maintenance is the three-pattern MK 6, including the CMTS stereo microphones which used a version of that capsule type. But that isn't because of the membrane; it's because of the pattern-change mechanism and the synthetic rubber seals that are part of it. Otherwise Schoeps doesn't recommend "regular" cleanings of capsules unless you mean on a time scale such as every 10 - 15 years in normal operation. Which is like saying, "I take a bath every three months or so whether I need it or not."

And they don't recommend that anyone but themselves do the work, particularly where their multi-pattern capsules are concerned. A person who wasn't specifically trained in how they are made, and who lacks certain specialized test equipment, would never be able to put them back together in proper alignment after opening them. I've seen a couple of Schoeps mikes that were basically destroyed by a repair person who is very well known--even revered in some circles--for his work on other types of studio condenser microphones. There's far more risk from inexpert (or self-appointed "expert") disassembly, cleaning and reassembly than from the lack of cleaning under ordinary circumstances.

Back to the main subject--when I see people assuming that smoke would be likely to dull the sound of a microphone, or enthusiastically accepting the (basically false) idea that using ultra-thin membranes would make a major improvement in the high-frequency response and impulse response of condenser microphones, or the (also not very true) idea that various possible membrane materials each have a sound quality of their own, I think there must be a widespread misunderstanding about how condenser microphones work. A membrane's freedom of movement isn't determined mainly by its own mass or inertia; it's determined mainly by air friction within the capsule, of all things.

The backplate is perforated rather than solid, and there's a small chamber in front of it (between the membrane and the backplate) as well as another one behind it. On each vibration, the air within the capsule is pushed or pulled (very slightly) through the holes or slots or slits in the backplate, and in the process there is friction, which impedes the air flow between the two chambers and thus controls the movement of the membrane. That's part of the damping system which keeps the capsule from having a huge honking resonance around one frequency. Anyway, that friction is the dominant parameter in a capsule. Adding (or subtracting) moderate amounts of mass to (or from) the membrane won't change its frequency response or impulse response characteristics much.

The main risk from smoke and dust (and the goo that cigarette smokers breathe onto a diaphragm when they sing right into the mike) is more a matter of operational reliability, especially when combined with moisture in the air. When moisture mixes in with the goo, it can create a lower-impedance path for the polarization voltage, which will basically short-circuit the capsule, causing the microphone to go dead either temporarily or permanently. Of course moisture can also come from breath--so close-miking a vocalist without using a popscreen of some kind is a big one-two punch to the capsule.

My favorite aunt used to be an active New Yorker, but nowadays she can hardly walk from one side of a room to the other without stopping to catch her breath, because she has chronic emphysema from decades as a smoker. It's bad enough what that stuff does to a replaceable piece of gold-evaporated tensilized polyester film; it's terrible what it does to the cells of living beings. If people are aware enough to be concerned with what happens to their microphones, I would hope they'd also carry that awareness over to include themselves and each other.

--best regards
« Last Edit: January 25, 2008, 12:41:48 PM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline Dutchman1101

  • Trade Count: (13)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 2856
  • Gender: Male
Re: Schoeps MK4 Question
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2008, 12:34:47 PM »
could very well be your caps are dirty and muddy sounding? have they been used in a lot of smoky bars?

schoeps recommends regular cleanings

To be honest the caps are probably fine. I think it was just me. The few times I have used the mix was not that bassy so it's probably just me worrying about nothing.

Thanks DSatz again for your vast knowledge!

Offline Josephine

  • Trade Count: (6)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • Posts: 5215
  • Gender: Female
Re: Schoeps MK4 Question
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2008, 12:39:53 PM »
Revisiting the original question:  Does anyone have experience in telling how old a Schoeps cap is by the serial number?
As both sets of my caps were bought second/third/fourth/?? hand, I'd be curious to know their age.

Schoeps MK4 / MK4v / MK41 > actives > NBox+ > R-09HR



~   On Dime   ~
~   My Recordings   ~
~   Live Music Archive   ~

Offline DSatz

  • Site Supporter
  • Trade Count: (35)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *
  • Posts: 3349
  • Gender: Male
Re: Schoeps MK4 Question
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2008, 12:43:44 PM »
Josephine, if you send the serial numbers of your capsules to mailbox@schoeps.de, they can tell you when they were made and whether they have been serviced there since then. (And please tell Bernhard I said "hello" if you do that.)

--best regards
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline Josephine

  • Trade Count: (6)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • Posts: 5215
  • Gender: Female
Re: Schoeps MK4 Question
« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2008, 12:44:44 PM »
Josephine, if you send the serial numbers of your capsules to mailbox@schoeps.de, they can tell you when they were made and whether they have been serviced there since then. (And please tell Bernhard I said "hello" if you do that.)

--best regards

Thanks so much . . .  I will do just that.   :)
Schoeps MK4 / MK4v / MK41 > actives > NBox+ > R-09HR



~   On Dime   ~
~   My Recordings   ~
~   Live Music Archive   ~

Offline ianstone

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 4185
  • Gender: Male
  • schoeps>something>something else
    • My Recordings on ARCHIVE
Re: Schoeps MK4 Question
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2008, 01:00:41 PM »


what type of 'regular maintenence' - and how often is regular?

i own a pair of mk6's, i did not know this.

-ian


thanks for the info - +T
« Last Edit: January 25, 2008, 06:15:35 PM by ianstone »
Microphones:
CCM4v (pair)
mk6 (pair) and mk41 (pair) with kc5's & cmc6's
mk21 (1) for those M/S situations

Preamps:
Sonosax SX-M2

Recorders:
Sound Devices 722
Edirol R-01

My Recordings on archive http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=%22ian%20stone%22

Offline it-goes-to-eleven

  • Trade Count: (58)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 6696
Re: Schoeps MK4 Question
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2008, 01:16:54 PM »
what type of 'regular maintenence' - and how often is regular?

i own a pair of mk6's, i did not know this.

I'm pretty sure he means you must loan them out on a regular basis ;)

Offline DSatz

  • Site Supporter
  • Trade Count: (35)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *
  • Posts: 3349
  • Gender: Male
Re: Schoeps MK4 Question
« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2008, 01:40:29 PM »
Hi, ianstone. I've never managed to squeeze an exact recommendation out of Schoeps regarding maintenance on the MK 6 (three-pattern) capsule, but there are two things to consider:

One is that any of their three-pattern capsules from before ca. 1986-87 should be updated as soon as possible with new gaskets. Around then, they changed over to a new synthetic material that's much longer-lasting than what they'd had available before. The function of these gaskets is to provide the seal behind the backplate which is necessary for the cardioid and omni patterns to work properly. By now it's a fairly safe bet that the material of all the older-type gaskets has begun to harden, and isn't sealing properly any more. That is not a function of use, but of age and exposure to air.

The other issue is that the pattern-change mechanism itself apparently benefits from preventive maintenance. My CMT 56 microphones (made in 1972) have never had mechanical problems, and have only been back to the factory twice (1983 and 2004)--but I've seen a large-scale model of the pattern change mechanism and it is really complicated, so I will take Schoeps' word for it. For myself, I'm going to guess that 15-year maintenance cycles might be about right.

This last time when my capsules were rebuilt to have the new gaskets, it was found that their response had fallen out of specification. So in the process or rebuilding them, they were brought closer to the specifications of new capsules--evidently going beyond routine maintenance in the process. This was very nice, but I wasn't expecting it, and I was a little upset at first. Then I actually used the microphones, and got the best recording of one particular operatic mezzo-soprano that I'd ever gotten--so now all is forgiven. I just want to warn you that the work they have to do on the three-pattern capsules may have more strings attached than with any of their other capsules. Not bad strings, necessarily--but there are more potential twists and turns in the story.

For three-pattern capsules that have not had their gaskets updated, it is suggested that they be stored in the figure-8 setting since both of the other patterns settings compress the gaskets to varying degrees. This isn't a problem (yet, anyway) with post-1987 MK 6 capsules or MK 6 capsules that have received the update, but it's something to consider, perhaps.

Again, these issues occur ONLY in the three-pattern capsules--not in any of Schoeps' single-pattern capsules, nor even in their two-pattern MK 5.

--best regards
« Last Edit: January 25, 2008, 08:26:41 PM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

 

RSS | Mobile
Page created in 0.081 seconds with 39 queries.
© 2002-2024 Taperssection.com
Powered by SMF