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Gear / Technical Help => Recording Gear => Topic started by: waltmon on July 25, 2016, 01:51:17 PM
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I noticed last week that the guy next to me was running levels super low (4 channel schoeps rig) I've always run my levels normally...def higher and adjust during the mix down in post.
Also...how hot do you push your 744T level-wise? My understanding has been you can run hotter in 24 bit mode.
I've heard several sources of the recent Cali Phish run and the levels are super low on most...thoughts?
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I always run hotter then most people recommend, like -3 typical peaks
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I record 4ch on the DR2D and the DR70D, but the fact that there are 4 channels doesn't affect how hot I run the levels, as my intent is to produce two separate recordings. When I do a matrix of the two in Audacity, I usually amplify the levels to peak at -4 or -5, then amplify the resulting stereo file.
Regarding the Phish shows, I don't know if this is the case with them but I think some people either don't care to or don't know how to amplify.
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Agreed. I always thought there was more presence in a recording with solid levels. In not talking slamming reds..i mean as you describe
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With 24bit you can actually record at lower levels than 16bit.
When you amplify 16bit in post you would introduce noise due to lower bit depth.
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With the DR-680 mkI I've been running the peaks around the -16 line on the screen (24/48). This typically results in peaks about -9 to -10 which gets fixed in Audacity with Amplify.
I'm not sure if it is the stock pre-amps or not, but I feel if I go too far over that level, a small amount of self noise and/or distortion results. We've only had the machine since December 2015, so it hasn't truly been run enough to know, but I'm sticking to the -16 line as my visual at the show setting.
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I can see the argument for pushing levels with older equipment that lacks sufficient dynamic range headroom, or if the recordist doesn't want to do any level manipulation afterwards on a straight 2-channel stereo recording, only doing tracking and fading with no other editing.
With modern quality equipment and proper gain-staging I don't hear much if any difference between running high-ish levels and fortunately squeaking by without an over verses running comfortably low and adjusting levels later. Remember that it's easy to hear 'louder as better', so one really needs to very carefully make sure the final adjusted levels really are identical when auditioning such a comparison to make up one's own mind on the matter.
I do find the optimal recording level I aim for is somewhat dependant on the recorder and the particulars of it's metering. It's more a practical issue than a sonic one as long as the recording doesn't clip. I'm in the camp of recording low enough that I needn't keep and eye on the meters or worry about going over, and adjusting the level of the resulting files to whatever is most optimal later, since I'm going to do adjust it anyway.
If I have to raise the level so much afterwards that the noise floor of the equipment reaches or exceeds the ambient noise floor of the venue where the recording was made, then I recorded with too low a level and should have raised levels higher when recording, but that very rarely happens. Still, I'd rather have a bit of excess low-level hiss during the very quietest parts than hear audible clipping on the loud stuff.
Recording more than two channels-
I find those two arguments for running hot less persuasive when recording more than 2-channels. There isn't much gear which is capable of recording more than 2 channels which will have critically limited dynamic range capability. And unless recording multi-channel surround, you're going to mix the resulting channels down to 2-channel stereo someway or another, so shooting for an initial recording level which is high enough for a final output file as a way to avoid further level correction is pointless.
For me the more interesting thing and more persuasive practical argument becomes maintaining the same level relationship between all recorded channels throughout the entire recording.. or throughout all related recording in a series - such as all recordings made over the course of a weekend at the same music festival. I don't want to find myself having to lower the gain on one channel or pair of channels because it's in danger of clipping, while leaving the other channels untouched. I'd then want to make a note of the time of the adjustement, to see if I needed to compensate for it afterwards in my mix, which would be a PITA. To not do that would mean that whatever mix I dialed in as correct at the beginning, would get thrown out of whack once the recording got to that point. I'd rather find a good relationship between all recorded channels and adjust them all together simultaneously when necessary (say at the start of each act if necessary, like for a loud electric act taking the stage after a quiet acoustic one), to keep my mix relationships the same throughout, making the mix far more easily manageable than if just one or a few channels suddenly change levels while the others remain the same.
With 4 channels it's still not too difficult to quickly turn all four input level knobs by the same amount to make those across-the-board recording level changes, but it's much easier when using a recorder which can 'gang' the input level controls together across all channels. Then, one knob turn adjusts the recording level of all channels simultaneously and by the same amount. When recording more than 4 channels it quickly becomes far more complicated, and such channel 'ganging' of input level controls becomes even more valuable.
So when I'm recording 6 channels on the DR-680, I'll first dial in the relative level relationships to where they need to be, by adjusting individual channels and sometimes by temporarily ganging stereo-pairs, or whatever. Then once the relative relationships are good enough, I'll gang all 6 channels together so that everything remains balanced when I need to make a gross level change. Like rocksuitcase, when recording to the DR-680 I find shooting for peaking at the -16 line on that recorder's relatively small meter a safe bet for most material.
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I appreciate all the input...interesting thread 8)
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I typically peak around -8 to -6 but for LA pushed the gefells to -1 came out nice and loud it's up on etree take a listen. Although I was nervous it was gonna clip but never did thankfully
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I run for levels peaking around -10/-12db normally with my 70d's! I allow for enough headroom that way if somethings spikes or gets louder, and its very easy to adjust gain in post, especially when recording in 24-Bit, which i ALWAYS do[mostly 24/96] :)