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Author Topic: Choosing a mid-level recorder  (Read 10211 times)

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Offline captainentropy

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Choosing a mid-level recorder
« on: April 02, 2016, 01:24:09 AM »
I currently use a Sony PCM-M10 when taping shows. Somehow I feel like I'm being limited by its lack of XLR ports and phantom power. I recently upgraded my mics to a set of Studio Projects C4s and got a phantom power supply for them. I also just ordered a pair of Line Audio CM3s based on what I've read here and Gearslutz. I previously was using a set of Audio Technica U853 (SP-CMC-4U) or Church Audio CA-14s plus a battery box. The only shows that really came out great were one show of Dead Can Dance and Zoe Keating. Neither artist gets as loud as a typical rock concert does. The others suffered from the high sound pressure or lack of definition. I had the ATs modded last year with the 4.7k mod and I recorded Godspeed You! Black Emperor with them and it didn't really sound that great either. The last show I recorded (Animal Collective, 2016 tour, Fox Theater) came out really good using the C4 mics with 48V. *Much* cleaner sound, better bass, better detail, etc. I've recorded them there before and it didn't turn out great. The difference this time was likely the mics (I tend to record in the same spot too) but I'm thinking to ditch the 48V power supply I got and go with a recorder with built in phantom power. The problem is there's quite a few choices I find in the $300-400 range, which is where I want to stay so I can put more $$ into better mics later. Although, perhaps with the CM3s, if the word is true (and my ears aren't deceiving me), I may not need to.

I'm looking at the Fostex FR2LE, Marantz PMD661/661 MKII, Roland R26, and maybe the Tascam DR100-mkII. I can basically find all of these new or used for ~$300-400. The problem is finding a side-by-side of all of these (like who's gonna do that right?). I don't know all the little details that make one recorder better than another so I need to lean on the experts here. I was gravitating towards the PMD661 MKII but I read a lot of good things about the Fostex. The R26 looks great too. But I don't know what quality of pre-amps they have. Or am I overthinking it and I should get a good preamp instead? I know the Tinybox is no longer made, and I don't want to wait around for one to appear in the yard sale. So I don't know what would be a good option then for preamp.

Any advice would be appreciated. :)


Offline Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B)

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Re: Choosing a mid-level recorder
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2016, 02:31:00 AM »
I'd just get a preamp.

If you can get your hands on a Tinybox (or Littlebox) you'd have a nice small footprint that sounds great. Keep an eye on the YS for one of those. They pop up somewhat often. If you see one jump on it though...they don't last long. Also since they were all custom builds you'll want to be sure it will work with your mics.

I'm currently only running my Tinybox > M10 rig. It works great.

If for some reason you'd like an all in one box, I'd go with something with 4 or more channels to give you the option to run more than 2 mics or do a matrix with the SBD.                                                                         
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Offline captainentropy

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Re: Choosing a mid-level recorder
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2016, 02:43:10 PM »
Yeah, the little/tinyboxes look sweet but I've searched the yardsale and they each appear about once per month. CA 9200 preamp even less frequently. Can't wait around for that.

Any other pre-amp suggestions? It doesn't have to be super tiny. I have a bag ("generic" Gravis bag that could, for example, barely fit my 13" ThinkPad) that I take into shows. But would a hefty size preamp be preferable to a similar sized recorder like the Fostex or Marantz? I've read on this forum to go with an all-in-one because their preamps nowadays are so good. But then I'm back to my original question :P

Offline jbell

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Re: Choosing a mid-level recorder
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2016, 02:56:13 PM »
Oade M248 would work well with the M10 and sounds awesome!  These don't come up to often either.

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=176924.0
Mics: DPA ST4011ER & 4018ER
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Offline acidjack

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Re: Choosing a mid-level recorder
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2016, 02:56:18 PM »
If you only care about 2 channel, just get a preamp.

If you want new technology and 4 channels, get the R-26. Sounds good, 4 channels (6 with internal mics), long battery life. I really like it, and it's nice and easy to carry around.
Mics: Schoeps MK4V, MK41V, MK5, MK22> CMC6, KCY 250/5, KC5, NBob; MBHO MBP603/KA200N, AT 3031, DPA 4061 w/ d:vice, Naiant X-X, AT 853c, shotgun, Nak300
Pres/Power: Aerco MP2, tinybox v2  [KCY], CA-UBB
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Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: Choosing a mid-level recorder
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2016, 02:22:23 AM »
Or a Tascam 70d :P ;D 8) They can be had for under $300 too! And you can easily do 4 channels, and it has great stock preamps IMO as well 8) Just get an approved card on Tascam's list! I fluff the 70d a lot, but its because this same question is asked pretty often, and it seems to fit most everyone's needs and budget, and Ive successfully ran one for over 1.5 years, and its been rock solid with cards that it likes ;)

I wouldn't recommend the 70d unless its worked great for me thus far and I truly thought it was a reliable deck :) I just think it sounds great, has an easy menu to navigate, is extremely cheap for what it does, and is easily powered with USB batteries! Oh, and does 4 channels@24/96 8) And its TINY on top of that! Certainly the smallest 4 channel deck on the market, with 4 XLR inputs anyway 8) All around a great deck, and honestly, my fav deck since I sold my 722 awhile back!!!

Here's the link to Tascam's "approved" sd card list! The 64gb/32gb Sandisk Extreme Pro cards seem to be the most reliable so far!
http://tascam.com/content/downloads/products/867/dr-70d_tested_media_list_20151006.pdf

But nowadays there's a LOT of handheld/small decks out there, and I'm sure you'll find one to fit your needs, and in your budget ;) Best of luck!
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Offline Fried Chicken Boy

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Re: Choosing a mid-level recorder
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2016, 11:04:21 AM »
I'll echo what acidjack stated a few posts up: get a preamp if you want to stick with 2-channel, get a different recorder if you want 4 or more channels to work with.

As far as preamps go, I would also suggest the Sound Devices MixPre/Shure FP-24 (Shure-branded, SD-made version of the MixPre).  Built like a tank and has pristine sound, as SD devices generally do.  The original MixPre/FP-24 is no longer being made but used ones show up here in the YS and on eBay pretty regularly; you can likely pick one up in your budget with a little patience.  Keep in mind that the newer version, MixPre-D, has a digital component and is considerably more expensive, on the order of ~$700 used to $929 new.

aj's suggestion of the Roland R-26 is a good one: solid, great sounding recorder with 4 channels and 2 XLR inputs.  In that vein, I would also recommend the Tascam DR-60D which is one of Tascam's better offerings, IMHO. 

While there are quite a few adoptees of the Tascam DR-70D and it can be a great deck, it is also finicky about the SD cards it will use and there is also a wrinkle of some USB cables not working properly with it.  No sense giving yourself headaches right out of the gate (no offense to Bean and other folks who are having a great experience with that recorder).

Offline captainentropy

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Re: Choosing a mid-level recorder
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2016, 04:29:06 AM »
In theory I like the idea of the 4+ channel recorders. I do have more than one set of mics so I could easily use some omnis and some cards at the same time. Or if I ever have the chance a soundboard plus external mics.

I was searching through the live music archive for different recorders to see how they are used and, for the 4+ channel models, the R26 isn't used much at all. I found that odd. But what do I know. Is there a "trendy" factor to recorders? I see the Tascam DR-60D and the DR-70D are represented much more often. It seems like a lot, maybe a plurality, of these recordings are a SBD + external mic recording. I appreciate F.O.Bean's (and Fried Chicken's) post. That's a pretty sound endorsement considering you had a Sound Devices 722  :o

I'm not sure if that's a fair way to evaluate gear, but IMO it seems reasonable, since, it's likely these tapers know their gear (especially since many of the mics are like M300 and higher in cost and quality - these aren't casual tapers). Maybe I'll spend some time and to a deeper analysis using LMA data.

I do on occasion film stuff with my Canon T3i. I've used the CA-14s in those cases, but having a film-minded recorder could be a cool addition to my gear.

The 60D and 70D are both very affordable and look very capable, so I'm naturally skeptical. I know that's probably an unreasonable POV since, for example the Line Audio CM3s are ridiculously cheap for the sound they pick up (based on reviews and my own hearing), but you get my point, I hope.

The 70D is still cheaper than the R26. Is it "better" though? Same for it compared to a 661 MKII or Fostex FR2LE. Looking through the LMA it looks like the Sony PCM-M10 and the Sound Devices 744T have huge numbers (>4,000 each). That's a huge range in price! Of course the M10 users have a preamp to go with it.

I watched a video comparing the Tascam DR-680 +/- a SD MixPre and to my ears it was no contest. Should I expect the same for the 70D? It seems like there aren't many choices when it comes to portable 2-channel preamps. Very few "boutique" ones that I can find too, especially in the sub-$500 range.

I found a Shure FP-24 for $490. I also read good things about the Audioroot Femto ($550 new). Can the 70D compete with them? It is much cheaper though...

Thanks for all the comments so far. There so much to learn!

Online voltronic

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Re: Choosing a mid-level recorder
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2016, 06:19:49 AM »
You can see from my gear list that I use a few of the things mentioned here.  I would not pay more than $400 for a Mix Pre / FP-24.  $490 is too high IMO, and there have been several of these priced very high on eBay that don't sell, then are relisted at a similar high price.  Post an "ISO" in the Yard Sale and you may get some hits.

You can get a DR-70D for $200 right now, and you're not going to beat that value.  Yes, it only works with certain cards, but as long as you use a card on Tascam's recommended media list it's a non-issue.  The USB cable thing came from me, where I was having problems with Monoprice USB cables disconnecting with it.  Every other brand of cheap cable I've used since then works fine.

Is the MixPre / FP24 going to have higher gain and better absolute quality?  Sure, but for loud amplified music you're never going to notice it.
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Offline acidjack

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Re: Choosing a mid-level recorder
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2016, 01:42:17 PM »
What's "trendy" here is buying stuff that (a) is cheap and (b) other people have. While sometimes the groupthink is useful, sometimes, as in the case of the Trashcan 70D, it's not. At that price point, the Zoom H6 is much better. Not as many people use it, either. Even in Trashcan's own line, the less popular 60D is more reliable.

In theory I like the idea of the 4+ channel recorders. I do have more than one set of mics so I could easily use some omnis and some cards at the same time. Or if I ever have the chance a soundboard plus external mics.

I was searching through the live music archive for different recorders to see how they are used and, for the 4+ channel models, the R26 isn't used much at all. I found that odd. But what do I know. Is there a "trendy" factor to recorders? I see the Tascam DR-60D and the DR-70D are represented much more often. It seems like a lot, maybe a plurality, of these recordings are a SBD + external mic recording. I appreciate F.O.Bean's (and Fried Chicken's) post. That's a pretty sound endorsement considering you had a Sound Devices 722  :o

I'm not sure if that's a fair way to evaluate gear, but IMO it seems reasonable, since, it's likely these tapers know their gear (especially since many of the mics are like M300 and higher in cost and quality - these aren't casual tapers). Maybe I'll spend some time and to a deeper analysis using LMA data.

I do on occasion film stuff with my Canon T3i. I've used the CA-14s in those cases, but having a film-minded recorder could be a cool addition to my gear.

The 60D and 70D are both very affordable and look very capable, so I'm naturally skeptical. I know that's probably an unreasonable POV since, for example the Line Audio CM3s are ridiculously cheap for the sound they pick up (based on reviews and my own hearing), but you get my point, I hope.

The 70D is still cheaper than the R26. Is it "better" though? Same for it compared to a 661 MKII or Fostex FR2LE. Looking through the LMA it looks like the Sony PCM-M10 and the Sound Devices 744T have huge numbers (>4,000 each). That's a huge range in price! Of course the M10 users have a preamp to go with it.

I watched a video comparing the Tascam DR-680 +/- a SD MixPre and to my ears it was no contest. Should I expect the same for the 70D? It seems like there aren't many choices when it comes to portable 2-channel preamps. Very few "boutique" ones that I can find too, especially in the sub-$500 range.

I found a Shure FP-24 for $490. I also read good things about the Audioroot Femto ($550 new). Can the 70D compete with them? It is much cheaper though...

Thanks for all the comments so far. There so much to learn!
Mics: Schoeps MK4V, MK41V, MK5, MK22> CMC6, KCY 250/5, KC5, NBob; MBHO MBP603/KA200N, AT 3031, DPA 4061 w/ d:vice, Naiant X-X, AT 853c, shotgun, Nak300
Pres/Power: Aerco MP2, tinybox v2  [KCY], CA-UBB
Decks: Sound Devices MixPre 6, Zoom F8, M10, D50

My recordings on nyctaper.com: http://www.nyctaper.com/?tag=acidjack | LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/acidjack | twitter: http://www.twitter.com/acidjacknyc | Soundcloud: https://soundcloud.com/acidjacknyc

Offline hoppedup

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Re: Choosing a mid-level recorder
« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2016, 02:41:41 PM »
The Tascam DR-60D has been rock solid for me.  I have no qualms using it without backup. There is no need for an external pre with this unit, IMO. Run times with phantom on two channels exceeded 15 hours for me with a 10,000mah USB battery pack.


I also own a DR-70D. It has never let me down. But due to the issues others have had, it now runs as a backup.
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Offline 2manyrocks

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Re: Choosing a mid-level recorder
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2016, 03:21:42 PM »
I own the sony pcm m10, the 60d mkI and the 70d.  I haven't had any trouble with any of them.   The 60d never seemed to catch on at TS I suspect because the 70d came along with 4 xlr inputs and a more appealing case design compared to the block of butter shape of the 60d.  the 60d only has two XLR inputs and one 1/8 stereo input that is ganged.

All was apparently going well in the 70d thread here until some members starting having glitches.  Tascam then released a list of approved cards, and I'm not aware of anyone having a glitch using one of the approved cards since then or it it happened, it has been an isolated case. 

The 60d still has a few advantages over the 70d for video because the 60d has manual gain control over the output to your camera.  The 70d control is set in the menu, I think---I never have used the 70d for video.  The 1/8 stereo input is ganged on the 60d and that is a useful feature completely missing from the 70d. 

When I priced approved cards for the 70d, they seemed more expensive than more generic SDXC cards I use in my cameras. 

With the mkii at $199 and the 70d on sale for $199, you might wait and see if they don't run a sale on the 60dmkii if it interests you more for video recording. 

I haven't used a 60dmkii to be able to say how the preamps compare to the 70d.  I would think either one is certainly useable. 

I am not famliar enough with zoom or roland to be able to offer any realistic thoughts on them. 


Online voltronic

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Re: Choosing a mid-level recorder
« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2016, 06:48:25 PM »
To the OP: Going off acidjack's comment, another TS quality you'll notice are very different user experiences leading to significant differences of opinion.  And that's a good thing, I'd say.  For instance, I've used the H6 and I strongly prefer the performance of the 70D preamps, but I'm only doing quieter classical recording so my experience may be a bit different than most others here.  So obviously, don't take everything any of us say as gospel.  The great thing about TS is the huge volume of experiences people are willing to share, so you'll learn a lot here.
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Offline captainentropy

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Re: Choosing a mid-level recorder
« Reply #13 on: April 07, 2016, 02:39:32 PM »
Thanks for all the replies.

Most of the shows I go to are loud amplified shows. Some can have long quiet-ish moments though (e.g. Dead Can Dance, Zoe Keating, GY!BE) so it seems like I'd need to consider noise floor? So that should steer me away from the H6?

I suppose I should just go for the 70D with that crazy-low price before it disappears...

But I think I definitely need a good preamp.

Online voltronic

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Re: Choosing a mid-level recorder
« Reply #14 on: April 07, 2016, 04:00:12 PM »
Actually for what you are doing, any modern portable recorder is going to have a noise floor far below the ambient noise in the room, even if the band stops playing and the audience all holds their breath together.  You won't notice noise floor differences unless you're doing classical or otherwise acoustic recording.  Any of the recorders being discussed here will work fine.
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