Topic: What is the new hotness for stealth/small profile taping?

[Brian E.]

thanks for all the help, I'm going to sift through it

[Dede2002]

When I taped in 2003-2006, I used a laptop and then a JB3.  I've since lost both of those (sold laptop, gave back JB3).  So I haven't taped since then.  I used giant squids and AT853's -> custom Batt Box -> JB3.  I hated the JB3.  Not user friendly and too big.

I'd like to find something the size of an iPod (not an iRiver) that is the new big thing, with some small mics that I can also stick on a t-bar too if I want.

So, what is there?  Let's assume that money isn't really an option.

I assume you mean money is no "object"... but anyway..

The most common small recorder is the Edirol R-09HR.  Generally good reliability, good internal pre, easy to use, records 24bit. Not as small as an iPod but a lot smaller than a JB3 or a DAT machine.

Mics--- if money is really not a problem. the top of the line would involve something like Schoeps Mk4 or DPA 4022 running into various power supplies -but you probably already know that.  

In small to miniature mics that you could still put on a t-bar, the main models in very rough order of quality and price (quality being subjective of course), are:

Highest-end
Schoeps Mk4/DPA 4022 ($3000)

High-end miniature omnis (don't really need a t-bar or stand since you can mount to about anything)
DPA 4061 (omni, not ideal for every situation but excellent when used properly) ~$1000

High-end cardiods/hypers  (in the $500-700 range) (these would be less goofy looking on a t-bar)
Audix M1290 (Chris Church can apparently do some kind of active cables for these now)
AKG ck91/ck93 actives (you'd need someone to mod them and find a power source)

...and then the category I'd call "very good to great easy to use small mics under $500" which is probably what you're really asking about

The below 4 are roughly equivalent or at least it is debatable:
MM-HLSC-1 (Sennheiser MKE 40's, I believe they really are)
SP-CMC-4 (AT U853) (you apparently owned these so you know the deal)
Church CA-14 (roughly comparable to SP-CMC-4) (there are great rig pics of these mounted to a t-bar)
SP-CMC-8 (AT 943)

Other than those, there are Church CA-11, which are not as good as the CA-14 but are loved by many and smaller than they are, and then the classic omni models from Coresound and Sonic Studios that I would guess you are already familiar with.

I'm sure I'm forgetting a few models like the Giant Squids and a few others, but the above are what I find to be talked about the most on here.

Couldn't agree more 

[acidjack]

Brian, you might also want to look into the new active cables for Audix 1290 capsules that Chris Church is now selling (see Retail Space).  The Audix caps are a higher-quality cap than the Church mics and the AT853 mics (and more expensive by over 100%), but being able to run them with a standard 9v battery box (like the kind you can buy from Church or Sound Professionals) is a high-quailty and low-profile new option.  I don't know anyone who has used the Audix in this configuration, but there are plenty of samples of Audix 1290 mics on the LME and etree.

[JasonSobel]

there are also other options for small profile mics with "active" cables, that are similar in size to a schoeps, nuemann, or DPA active setup.  Specifically, I'm thinking of the milab vm-44 link, the beyerdynamic CK930, and the MBHO mics with "active" cables and caps.  Personally, I think all three of these options are a step up from the tiny tiny battery-box powered mics, and are significantly cheaper than mics from schoep or neumann or DPA.  For rough costs, you can get a pair of beyerdynamic CK930 mics for ~$1,000 (new), and I think the milabs are ~$1300 (new).

[acidjack]

there are also other options for small profile mics with "active" cables, that are similar in size to a schoeps, nuemann, or DPA active setup.  Specifically, I'm thinking of the milab vm-44 link, the beyerdynamic CK930, and the MBHO mics with "active" cables and caps.  Personally, I think all three of these options are a step up from the tiny tiny battery-box powered mics, and are significantly cheaper than mics from schoep or neumann or DPA.  For rough costs, you can get a pair of beyerdynamic CK930 mics for ~$1,000 (new), and I think the milabs are ~$1300 (new).

Jason - Am I correct, though, that of the ones you listed (other than the Beyers, which I should have listed), you need both the mic body somewhere in the chain + a power source?  I agree that all of the mics you mentioned (well, the MBHO and Beyer anyway; I'm not that familiar with Milabs personally) would sound better, but if the OP's goal is to achieve a "stealth" type of setup, am I right that it is not as practical to also have to have mic bodies in the chain as well? 

[Jhurlbs81]

doesn't get any hotter than this rig if you ask me..

[illconditioned]

doesn't get any hotter than this rig if you ask me..

That is still a lot of gear.  I'd like to see, Scheops CMR > batt. box > Edirol.

  Richard

[Jhurlbs81]

I guess it's all relative.  That VMS rig is easily stealthable.

[scb]

doesn't get any hotter than this rig if you ask me..

dpa 402x > sd 722

[JasonSobel]

there are also other options for small profile mics with "active" cables, that are similar in size to a schoeps, nuemann, or DPA active setup.  Specifically, I'm thinking of the milab vm-44 link, the beyerdynamic CK930, and the MBHO mics with "active" cables and caps.  Personally, I think all three of these options are a step up from the tiny tiny battery-box powered mics, and are significantly cheaper than mics from schoep or neumann or DPA.  For rough costs, you can get a pair of beyerdynamic CK930 mics for ~$1,000 (new), and I think the milabs are ~$1300 (new).

Jason - Am I correct, though, that of the ones you listed (other than the Beyers, which I should have listed), you need both the mic body somewhere in the chain + a power source?  I agree that all of the mics you mentioned (well, the MBHO and Beyer anyway; I'm not that familiar with Milabs personally) would sound better, but if the OP's goal is to achieve a "stealth" type of setup, am I right that it is not as practical to also have to have mic bodies in the chain as well? 

yes, having mic bodies in the gear chain is more gear than not.

Schoeps caps > kc5 > cmc6 > whatever gear
Neumann caps > lc3 > km100 bodies > whatever gear
beyerdynamic CK930 caps > remote cable > CK930 bodies > whatever gear
mbho caps > remote cable > mbho bodies > whatever gear
milab caps > remote cable > milab bodies > whatever gear

all of the options above have the microphone bodies in the gear chain, while the options below do not:

Schoeps CCM series
DPA 4021/4022/4023/etc
Schoeps mk caps > nbox
Schoeps mk caps > vms02ib
Schoeps mk caps > CMR

there's probably more that I'm not thinking about right now, but you get the idea.
To sum up, there's always compromises.
For a lot of people, cost is a big consideration, and having the mic bodies in the gear chain is not that big of a compromise.  I was just throwing out some of the better sounding / more affordable options for a low profile recording setup.

edit to add:
and in regards to a power source.  Every microphone needs a power source.  As a gross generalization, I think phantom powered mics sound better than mics powered with a battery box.  (obviously there are exceptions.  Schoeps caps with the CMR cable and battery box, Schoeps caps with an nbox or vms, etc..)  I think most people would agree that it's way more convenient to have your mic power source included in your pre-amp and/or recorder.  the SD boxes provide phantom power.  So does the Marantz PMD-661 and the Fostex FR-2LE.  or you could get a small phantom power supply like the Denecke PS-2 and run that into a deck that's even smaller than the three decks I just mentioned.  or get a small external pre-eamp, like the Sonosax SX-M2, Aerco MP-2, or the new naiant littlebox.  any of those will provide phantom power and gain, and then run into a small little deck.  Like I said earlier though, I think it's less hassle to get a larger deck, but only deal with one box instead of two (pre+recorder)

[acidjack]

yes, having mic bodies in the gear chain is more gear than not.

Schoeps caps > kc5 > cmc6 > whatever gear
Neumann caps > lc3 > km100 bodies > whatever gear
beyerdynamic CK930 caps > remote cable > CK930 bodies > whatever gear
mbho caps > remote cable > mbho bodies > whatever gear
milab caps > remote cable > milab bodies > whatever gear

all of the options above have the microphone bodies in the gear chain, while the options below do not:

Schoeps CCM series
DPA 4021/4022/4023/etc
Schoeps mk caps > nbox
Schoeps mk caps > vms02ib
Schoeps mk caps > CMR

there's probably more that I'm not thinking about right now, but you get the idea.
To sum up, there's always compromises.
For a lot of people, cost is a big consideration, and having the mic bodies in the gear chain is not that big of a compromise.  I was just throwing out some of the better sounding / more affordable options for a low profile recording setup.

edit to add:
and in regards to a power source.  Every microphone needs a power source.  As a gross generalization, I think phantom powered mics sound better than mics powered with a battery box.  (obviously there are exceptions.  Schoeps caps with the CMR cable and battery box, Schoeps caps with an nbox or vms, etc..)  I think most people would agree that it's way more convenient to have your mic power source included in your pre-amp and/or recorder.  the SD boxes provide phantom power.  So does the Marantz PMD-661 and the Fostex FR-2LE.  or you could get a small phantom power supply like the Denecke PS-2 and run that into a deck that's even smaller than the three decks I just mentioned.  or get a small external pre-eamp, like the Sonosax SX-M2, Aerco MP-2, or the new naiant littlebox.  any of those will provide phantom power and gain, and then run into a small little deck.  Like I said earlier though, I think it's less hassle to get a larger deck, but only deal with one box instead of two (pre+recorder)
[/quote]

All true, all true.  Assuming I upgrade to such a rig eventually, I think the 661 or something like it that has onboard phantom is probably a good way to go.

I thought that actually the Beyer ck930 was a self-contained small mic a la the DPA 402x and Schoeps CCM - i.e., there is just a small body and there is no detachable cap.  Am I wrong about that?  I'm just basing it on this picture... http://www.frontendaudio.com/Beyerdynamic_CK_930_Microphone_Set_p/9999-00536.htm

[Brian Skalinder]

all of the options above have the microphone bodies in the gear chain, while the options below do not:

Schoeps CCM series
DPA 4021/4022/4023/etc
Schoeps mk caps > nbox
Schoeps mk caps > vms02ib
Schoeps mk caps > CMR

Add Schoeps MK caps > Sonosax SX-M2/LS2 (aka Lemosax) to the list.  And I vaguely recall the /LS2 will work with Neumann AK caps, too, but it's only a vague notion, and I don't know of anyone having used that setup.

[JasonSobel]

I thought that actually the Beyer ck930 was a self-contained small mic a la the DPA 402x and Schoeps CCM - i.e., there is just a small body and there is no detachable cap.  Am I wrong about that?  I'm just basing it on this picture... http://www.frontendaudio.com/Beyerdynamic_CK_930_Microphone_Set_p/9999-00536.htm

the picture there doesn't show the mic body.  it's a "typical" size for a mic body, maybe 4 inches long.  this is a picture from the beyerdynamic website (actually of the CK950, hypercardioid mic+remote cable+body instead of the CK930 cardioid, but the two mics are the same size and have the same mic body).

[Brian E.]

thanks again for all the input, will peruse some more.

I think, just to start, this is my grocery list:

CA-11's (already bought)
CA-14's (omni and cards)
CA-UBB (battery box)
CA 9100 (Amp)
Edirol R09-HR (already bought)

then from Sound Professionals I just ordered:

AT-MINI-CLIP X 2
SP-GNA-3 T-Bar 12"
SP-SHM-5 Shock Mount + SP-TMA-1 mic mount adapter
SP-MIC-CASE-2 (Large)
WT-CM-01 Camera Mount Adapter (for the Ediral and my Canon HF200)

AS-USB-FAN (for fun)

I have a light stand.  That's about it.

Once I get more settled into those, I'll probably start looking at some of the phantom powered stuff you guys posted.

[Matt Quinn]

doesn't get any hotter than this rig if you ask me..

OK, I'll throw my hat in the ring. Slap on caps & you're good to go.