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Author Topic: DINA (17cm/90deg) vs. DIN (20cm/90 deg)  (Read 5179 times)

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Offline Rick

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DINA (17cm/90deg) vs. DIN (20cm/90 deg)
« on: February 25, 2004, 03:26:37 PM »
What would be the difference, sound wise? What does that 3cm give you?

Thanks

by the way... this is in reference to the custom schoep bars at cascademedia.net
« Last Edit: February 25, 2004, 03:28:35 PM by Rick »
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Offline nickgregory

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Re:DINA (17cm/90deg) vs. DIN (20cm/90 deg)
« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2004, 03:27:58 PM »
I use the 17cm spacing when I am running hypers and the 20 cm spacing when I am running cards....helps to avoid getting a dead spot in the middle of the sound stage due to the pickup patterns...

Offline Rick

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Re:DINA (17cm/90deg) vs. DIN (20cm/90 deg)
« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2004, 04:08:42 PM »
I can see why you would want to use a smaller separation with the hypers, but would using cards be ok with the 17cm separation?
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Offline nickgregory

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Re:DINA (17cm/90deg) vs. DIN (20cm/90 deg)
« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2004, 04:10:12 PM »
I can see why you would want to use a smaller separation with the hypers, but would using cards be ok with the 17cm separation?

in theory, I am sure you could...this would be more of a point outside the stacks type method I would think...all it would really do is reduce the amount of seperation you are going to get (i.e. the soundstage), but in some cases, it could be the best option...

Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re:DINA (17cm/90deg) vs. DIN (20cm/90 deg)
« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2004, 04:29:56 PM »
I can see why you would want to use a smaller separation with the hypers, but would using cards be ok with the 17cm separation?

in theory, I am sure you could...this would be more of a point outside the stacks type method I would think...all it would really do is reduce the amount of seperation you are going to get (i.e. the soundstage), but in some cases, it could be the best option...

FWIW, I went the other way and picked up the 20cm/90º bar, so all my DIN recordings - whether cards or hypers - are 20cm/90º.

I'd say even at 17cm, it's not really a point at the stacks method.  The included angle is the primary distinction between near coincident stereo techniques and point at the stacks, and since it's still a 90º included angle, the results whether 17cm or 20cm are going to be damn near identical.

FWIW, I've not encountered any issues with a hole in the middle running hypers 20cm/90º.
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Re:DINA (17cm/90deg) vs. DIN (20cm/90 deg)
« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2004, 09:32:27 PM »
does the distance make a whole lotta difference in this?  at the main bar here where most of the bands come...i am at least 40 ft back...no taping allowed fob...when i put my mics at 90 deg...they are pointed at the damn walls...same for XY, and TONS of crowd chatter, esp on quieter songs.  I have only taped 2 shows..one here and one in a much smaller bar(DIN there)  any suggestions on a distance of 30-50 ft?  is DIN fine for this?
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Re:DINA (17cm/90deg) vs. DIN (20cm/90 deg)
« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2004, 10:33:31 PM »
din can work out in situations like this but the club has to sound good...did you get the hyper caps with your mc012's?  if so, run those pointed at the outside of the stacks, about 20 cm apart.
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Offline dklein

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Re:DINA (17cm/90deg) vs. DIN (20cm/90 deg)
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2004, 04:19:17 AM »
does the distance make a whole lotta difference in this?  

Yes.  The relationship between distance, angle and spacing all play a role and if you increase the distance, you have to adjust the other two if you're trying to capture an equivalent recording angle (sort of the width of the soundstage).

I'll try and dig up some info tomorrow...
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Re:DINA (17cm/90deg) vs. DIN (20cm/90 deg)
« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2004, 12:12:03 PM »
does the distance make a whole lotta difference in this?  

Yes.  The relationship between distance, angle and spacing all play a role and if you increase the distance, you have to adjust the other two if you're trying to capture an equivalent recording angle (sort of the width of the soundstage).

I'll try and dig up some info tomorrow...
not only that but the spacing is suppose to help with the reproduction of the way the ear hears it...it's a phase thang, iykwim  It helps reduce the brightness too.  If the room is small or really reverberent, you may be best served going xy.

I've often wondered about the Neumann ORTF bar..it is set and switching btw cards and hypers it is still held at the same relationship.  Generally if I'm using cards it's  either DIN or ORTF... with some small runs of DINA or XY for the hypers.

I didn't like the ak 50's xy at the last DAR WP show but Hank W. II came out fine using the 50's in xy.
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Offline Kwonfidelity

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Re:DINA (17cm/90deg) vs. DIN (20cm/90 deg)
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2004, 01:01:45 PM »
What would be the difference, sound wise? What does that 3cm give you?

Thanks

by the way... this is in reference to the custom schoep bars at cascademedia.net

Direct A/B tests will present several sonic differences between the two configurations, as applied to both hypers and cards.  Without having my field notes in front of me, this is what I remember from the top of my head:

1.  mk41s run on both 20cm(A) & 17cm(B) on an ams-22 mount (meaning that both pairs of mk41s are only 20mm(approx) apart on the vertical plane.  The 41s(A) presented to be more muffled with mids buried moreso than the 41s(B), highs were less brilliant (but not too brittle) than the 41s(B), and the low end became sloppier than the 41s(B).  Overall, the sound of the 41s(B) was more accurate, less reverberant, and more pleasing to listen to with cans or playback (in this case two HR824s per side(L/R) with one (per side) rolled off to the "B" setting.)  The sloppiness created by spreading the mk41s apart goes against known physics of frequency dependence where the wide will create a deeper tone.  Widening the hypers created a sloppier tone, not necessarily deeper and warm - I attributed this to be because of the polar pattern of the supers mk41s.

2.  In the case of the mk4s at 20cm(A) & 17cm(B) on the same ams-22 mount...the cards did not demonstrate that much of a difference except for the low end which because less prominent in the recording.  The high ends, what was analyzed to be beyond 10Khz became a little too brittle thatn the cards positioned at 20cm.

These tests were run in a theater with a vdosc array and also in a baffled basement studio with microphones aimed towards aformentioned playback system at 20 & 30ft.

Again, this is off the top of my head.

Edit:
A note.  All monitoring is done at a reference level only using calibrated monitors (also sent in for re-calibration every 12months - on average depending on usage and how hot the S.E. summers get  ;D )  What happens between my reference monitoring and your playback system is your own ball of wax...
« Last Edit: February 27, 2004, 01:09:17 PM by Kwonfidelity »
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Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re:DINA (17cm/90deg) vs. DIN (20cm/90 deg)
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2004, 01:29:09 PM »
These tests were run in a theater with a vdosc array and also in a baffled basement studio with microphones aimed towards aformentioned playback system at 20 & 30ft.

Again, this is off the top of my head.

Edit:
A note.  All monitoring is done at a reference level only using calibrated monitors (also sent in for re-calibration every 12months - on average depending on usage and how hot the S.E. summers get  ;D )  What happens between my reference monitoring and your playback system is your own ball of wax...

No doubt playback system plays a big role here!  In addition, the recording conditions sound fairly ideal.  Almost all of my recording is done in large bars/small rooms without a system like the VDOSC array or acoustics of a theater or basement studio.

Hmmmmm...I wonder if the less than ideal conditions would make the differences between DIN and DINA more or less noticable.  I'm guessing less noticable.  Now...if only I had a second pair of CMC6/MK4 and 41s handy!  Anyone wanna lend me a pair so I can run a comp in the field?  :P  Thanks for the info, Kwon, interesting stuff.   :coolguy:
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Offline Sean Gallemore

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Re:DINA (17cm/90deg) vs. DIN (20cm/90 deg)
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2004, 02:01:07 PM »
I run DINS(DIN stealth).  I don't have the measurements down, but it's pretty fucking ingenious, pictures to come.

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Re:DINA (17cm/90deg) vs. DIN (20cm/90 deg)
« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2004, 02:49:09 PM »
Hey Robert, care to comment on the differences noted between ortf and din for the mk4s and 41s?  Have you done that comparsion in a controlled test like DIN and DINA?

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Re:DINA (17cm/90deg) vs. DIN (20cm/90 deg)
« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2004, 03:10:10 PM »
I just got some good (IMO) results with my cheap little SP AT933 hypers running DINA (17cm/90*) for MMW last Sunday. From my spot, 90* was just outside the stacks. It didn't pick up as much of the really chatty crowd as I was expecting.
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Offline Kwonfidelity

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Re:DINA (17cm/90deg) vs. DIN (20cm/90 deg)
« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2004, 03:11:56 PM »
Hey Robert, care to comment on the differences noted between ortf and din for the mk4s and 41s?  Have you done that comparsion in a controlled test like DIN and DINA?

You mean:
mk4s: ortf, 17/90, 20/90?
mk41s: ortf, 17/90, 20/90?

Definintely would stay away from mk41s ortf, would touch that with a stick.  mk4s in a ortf, din, dina shootout would be worth it.  I only have two pairs of mk4s, anyone care to meet me somewhere in atlanta or let me borrow their mk4s?  We can multitrack to harddisk and do a true a/b/c comparison.

Quote
I run 17cm/90* DIN cardioid, upclose in acoustic recordings quite frequently with the TL's.  And one time so far with the 4022's, and likely will do more of the same.

17cm/90deg DIN cards will work nicely up close.  The closer to the soundstage, the harder it is to differentiate between 17cm & 20cm.  There are many other factors, but this one is the most critical and the closer you get the more "uni" the polar patterns become (for a lack of a better term).

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