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Author Topic: shotgun mics usage  (Read 6556 times)

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Online Gutbucket

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Re: shotgun mics usage
« Reply #15 on: November 20, 2013, 05:53:07 PM »
Thanks mccordo,

I just took some photos of that particular setup which I'll post in my long running 'oddball mic techniques' thread once I get a chance.  The single forward facing center directional mic plus spaced omnis works especially well at a distance, which is why I think it applies to this thread..

OT festival golfcart ride time-
However, as you know that wasn't an issue last weekend since I was up front FOB in the heart of it for what I recorded.  Although it down-mixes really well to 2-channel stereo, that particular rig was primarily designed as a 4-channel surround rig, with a backwards facing supercardioid as well as the forward stage facing one, meant to be placed at the point of the triangle between stacks, in the 'impact zone' at the center of the crowd, yet capable of being snatched out quickly to safety if necessary.  The point of it is to get a sense of crowd excitement all around from up there as well as the dynamic and present FOB sound, but in a Marvin Gay "What's Goin On" cocktail party background sort of sense with no one voice in the crowd standing out, rather than the more typical, annoying distracted conversations we all hate to hear on our tapes.  It's pretty cool IMO when the crowd is really into it and start chanting and hooting from all around in back or sing back to the stage in unison. It is alive, not simply live.  As I told one curious wide-eyed audience member who wandered up and asked, "It's a current moment harvester for a teleportation time machine."  Which was probably the most accurate answer I gave to that question all weekend.  I told someone else at the Bootsy Collins set that it was a FunkDAR- a Funk Direction and Range detector, and that previously I could never find the funk, but now I always know the direction of the funk flow!  Those answers always seem more satisfying to random audience questioners who aren't tapers or soundguys then a straight tech explaination.   I have treads at TS like this one I can derail for that!

Believe it or not, I was running farther back the last two years than I used to do there.  I did run this way FOB at the stage-rail for one set last weekend.  I used to do that more often there, but it only works well for instrumental bands, or when I know I have the SBD too, and was easier when the festival was smaller and I could often walk up, plop the small stand on-stage and extend the then four omnis to wherever they needed to be.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2013, 05:59:35 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

cashandkerouac

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Re: shotgun mics usage
« Reply #16 on: November 20, 2013, 06:02:16 PM »
If a shotgun must be used for stereo recording, M/S is greatly preferred. [snip]
But M/S at least lets you aim the shotgun at the center of the sound source, and get as much of it as possible into the pickup angle of the one microphone, without much if any off-axis pickup of direct sound sources.

Here's an alternate option which I believe will be superior for music recording from farther back in an outdoor situation-

Keep the single, directly forward facing shotgun orientation and instead of M/S with a 'side' figure-8 mic, substitute two spaced omnis.  Need to either record all three channels seperately or mix them to 2-channel on the fly (left omni hard-panned left, right omni hard-panned right, shotgun panned to center).    [snip]

i think this is a great set-up and makes a ton of sense for all the reasons you cited.  at a very loud show (indoors or out) this set-up is wonderful.  however, if the music coming through the PA is not cranked up to "11" this set-up can be quite problemmatic.  you'll likely end up with a really nice center channel that gets covered in "mud" from the all the nearby audience noise picked up by the spaced onmis.     

Online Gutbucket

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Re: shotgun mics usage
« Reply #17 on: November 20, 2013, 06:50:28 PM »
It can.  If so you do what you would with any mics, especially omnis farther back, which is to raise the stand up as high as you can.

Actually I was thinking this weekend about substituting upward facing subcardioids for the omnis to further cut down on localized audience noise in the L/R channels.

But importantly, it's somewhat less susceptible to that problem than either two omnis alone, or the old GD section thing of using two shotguns plus a single omni.  Here's why-

First the omnis are ideally relatively widely separated.  In my case this weekend they were 2 meters apart.  That is far enough apart that any immediately nearby localized talking is mostly isolated by the distance between the two omnis, the rear facing supercard is also far enough away from either omni that the nearby chatter it picks up is also mostly decorelated.  So any one nearby talker only appears in one mic, usually not all three. With only a single omni you get whatever conversation is nearby, clearly and loudly. To my ears this picks up more of an atmospheric 'cocktail banter' background than specific attention grabbing annoying conversations you can follow.  I was running this relatively low up font this weekend for lower visual imposition, with the nearly invisible horizontally extending thin telescopic mic antennas just above and out of arms reach height for most folks.  With a few exceptions, the crowd noise this weekend I picked up was good rather than bad. 

The other thing is that the center directional which is more isolated from crowd noise significantly bolsters the omnis in terms of the music verses crowd noise balance.  More so than I expected.

I think we all agree no single setup is ideal for all situations.  This is just another tool in the kit to pull out for a appropriate situation, and one I think would make for of the more musically appropriate setups if using a shotgun mic.


musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

cashandkerouac

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Re: shotgun mics usage
« Reply #18 on: November 20, 2013, 09:54:28 PM »

Actually I was thinking this weekend about substituting upward facing subcardioids for the omnis to further cut down on localized audience noise in the L/R channels.

that's very intriguing.  i'll bet that wold sound really nice with a focused forward-facing center channel. 


But importantly, it's somewhat less susceptible to that problem than either two omnis alone, or the old GD section thing of using two shotguns plus a single omni.  Here's why-

First the omnis are ideally relatively widely separated.  In my case this weekend they were 2 meters apart.  That is far enough apart that any immediately nearby localized talking is mostly isolated by the distance between the two omnis, the rear facing supercard is also far enough away from either omni that the nearby chatter it picks up is also mostly decorelated.  So any one nearby talker only appears in one mic, usually not all three. With only a single omni you get whatever conversation is nearby, clearly and loudly. To my ears this picks up more of an atmospheric 'cocktail banter' background than specific attention grabbing annoying conversations you can follow.  I was running this relatively low up font this weekend for lower visual imposition, with the nearly invisible horizontally extending thin telescopic mic antennas just above and out of arms reach height for most folks.  With a few exceptions, the crowd noise this weekend I picked up was good rather than bad.


wow, now that's some very cool stuff!  good audience noise is really powerful and extremely desirable for that "i feel like i'm there" listening experience.  when the audience is in balance with the music it's great, but the more out of balance it gets the worse it sounds.  i suppose the struggle to get "good" audience noise has more often been achieved by good technique rather than a cooperative audience; but it seems like audiences at rock shows and festivals are getting increasingly less interested in listening to music.  the way you describe the positioning of omnis to get "good" audience noise makes a lot of sense.               



The other thing is that the center directional which is more isolated from crowd noise significantly bolsters the omnis in terms of the music verses crowd noise balance.  More so than I expected. 

bonus!   ;D



I think we all agree no single setup is ideal for all situations.  This is just another tool in the kit to pull out for a appropriate situation, and one I think would make for of the more musically appropriate setups if using a shotgun mic.

many thanks for the very helpful info   :D

Offline JimmieC

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Re: shotgun mics usage
« Reply #19 on: November 20, 2013, 11:34:57 PM »
bass_ur_face:  It looks like the ck8 will work with the 460 preamp using the ring adapter, which luckily came with my set.   I´m going to pick one up and try like Gutbucket described at some Downtown Alive or such events.  I´d like to try a 451 sometime too but then would need ck1s.  I think I would like the high frequency bump. 

I have tried messing around a little bit with the ck32 and ck47 capsules as mentioned by Gutbucket but most of the time I get lazy (the actives have made me even lazier) and just run the ck61s (less to carry).   I need tgakidis to cut the HM1000 cables down and / or may be Techflex Flexo F6 self wrapping split braid would help to use these capsules with too much cabling on the HM1000.  I don´t think they sound as good either but have not ran them with an external preamp.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2013, 12:02:31 AM by JimmieC »
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Mic:AKG C460B(CK61)/HM1000(CK32/CK47), Naiant Couplings/PFA, ADK-TL; Preamp:Lunatec V2, Naiant Littlebox v1.5; Rec:Tascam DA-P1/DR-100mkii/DR-680; Cable:GAKcables; Bar:Shure A27M, Robb Bar 23-cm, it-goes-to-eleven DINa Active Bar, GAK 3' Bar; Mount:Shure A53M, Audix MC-MICRO; Clamp:AKG K&M 237, Photek Grip Clamp w/Manfrotto 042; Stand: Manfrotto Alu Master 3 Riser 12' AC Stand/122B, Lowel Full Pole; Battery:18000mah Universal Lithium Battery; Playback:laptop>Schiit Modi>Yamaha HTR5890>Klipsch Synergy F2. My recordings on LMA

Online Gutbucket

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Re: shotgun mics usage
« Reply #20 on: November 20, 2013, 11:51:55 PM »
Thanks for putting up with all the cross-topic blather.

Location and Jedi skills of social pressure/persuasion/influence are just as key. Most didn't realize that their moving away or turning their conversation in the other direction was gently influenced. The louder zone in front at least attracts those more enthusiastic about the music. The talking back around the board & section is sometimes louder in relation to the music, more banal, annoying, distracting and rooted in place.

Also depends on the music, at last weekends funk fest a dispersed laughing party ambience is on.  That don't fly the same at acoustic bluegrass, jazz or classical gigs.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline John Willett

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Re: shotgun mics usage
« Reply #21 on: November 21, 2013, 09:51:14 AM »
imo the kmr81i is the only shotgun you should be using for music, as fas as i can tell, I am the only one who used them in the jam scene too.

The KMR 81i is, indeed, an excellent gun mic. (and I have one myself).  But I would also say that the new Sennheiser MKH 8060 would also be good for music.

cashandkerouac

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Re: shotgun mics usage
« Reply #22 on: November 21, 2013, 10:15:16 AM »
bass_ur_face:  It looks like the ck8 will work with the 460 preamp using the ring adapter, which luckily came with my set.   I´m going to pick one up and try like Gutbucket described at some Downtown Alive or such events.  I´d like to try a 451 sometime too but then would need ck1s.  I think I would like the high frequency bump. 

I have tried messing around a little bit with the ck32 and ck47 capsules as mentioned by Gutbucket but most of the time I get lazy (the actives have made me even lazier) and just run the ck61s (less to carry).   I need tgakidis to cut the HM1000 cables down and / or may be Techflex Flexo F6 self wrapping split braid would help to use these capsules with too much cabling on the HM1000.  I don´t think they sound as good either but have not ran them with an external preamp.

JimmieC: i think you will be very pleased with the ck8.  having the a60 adapters so you can use the 451/452 series caps with the 460 bodies provides great flexibility.  as for the ck1s caps verusus the standard ck1, i am a big fan of the high frequency bump of the ck1s model.  it's not a night and day difference; the ck1 and the ck1s are very similar and have the same basic "flavor".  however, the high frequency bump is desireable if your recording from a distance.  enjoy!

Online Gutbucket

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Re: shotgun mics usage
« Reply #23 on: November 21, 2013, 01:08:23 PM »
Here's the rig I put together for last weekend.  It's using DPA 4098H supercardioids as front and rear facing center mics, they use miniature interference tubes so they are technically related to shotgun mics but I don't consider them to be shotguns, closer to derringers I suppose.  The omnis on the longer arms are DPA 4061s.  More details and photos in the oddball mic techniques thread if interested.



« Last Edit: November 21, 2013, 01:09:55 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline JimmieC

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Re: shotgun mics usage
« Reply #24 on: November 22, 2013, 12:21:15 AM »
cool.
OH Grown
Mic:AKG C460B(CK61)/HM1000(CK32/CK47), Naiant Couplings/PFA, ADK-TL; Preamp:Lunatec V2, Naiant Littlebox v1.5; Rec:Tascam DA-P1/DR-100mkii/DR-680; Cable:GAKcables; Bar:Shure A27M, Robb Bar 23-cm, it-goes-to-eleven DINa Active Bar, GAK 3' Bar; Mount:Shure A53M, Audix MC-MICRO; Clamp:AKG K&M 237, Photek Grip Clamp w/Manfrotto 042; Stand: Manfrotto Alu Master 3 Riser 12' AC Stand/122B, Lowel Full Pole; Battery:18000mah Universal Lithium Battery; Playback:laptop>Schiit Modi>Yamaha HTR5890>Klipsch Synergy F2. My recordings on LMA

Offline dyneq

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Re: shotgun mics usage
« Reply #25 on: November 23, 2013, 06:25:28 PM »
Hey gutbucket - I'd love to hear what your setup sounds like (2m omnis with card/super in the middle outdoors). Where can I d/l a sample?

I'm contemplating trying your method with one of these passive mixers (2 mono inputs 1 stereo input and a stereo output):

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/3631-REG/Azden_CAM_3_CAM_3_3_Channel_Mic_Mixer.html

I have a set of AT853's with the omni caps that I could plug in to the stereo input (after a battery box) and a set of CA-11 cards that I could plug in to another battery box and then in to one of the mono inputs (it should allow the left channel to come through, I believe?). It would require more equipment/power sources/cabling, but I'm intrigued by the idea of a hybrid pattern approach since I mostly roll open from fairly far back at outdoor fests.

What did you use for the telescoping rods for the omnis, and how did you mount them to the tripod?

Thanks,
John

Online Gutbucket

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Re: shotgun mics usage
« Reply #26 on: November 26, 2013, 07:20:24 PM »
I don't have any downloadable samples up anywhere currently, but I'll work on getting some together.

The four telescopic arms are repurposed TV 'rabbit ear' antenna aerials (black ones rather than chrome), the center front/back facing ones just aren't telescoped out very far.  They're attached in opposing pairs to short aluminum bars covered with black heatshrink and those slip over the threaded stud atop the stand.  It's a continuing evolution of the 2-channel spaced omni setup I started doing about 5 years ago. Details on this version of that rig are at the end of that thread, directly linked in my previous post above.

If you plan to record only 2-channels and mix the three mic signals before the recorder, you'll want to use a mixer which allows for panning or assigning the center mic to both the left and right channels of the recorder.  Some small mixers have left/center/right assignment switches for each input instead of rotary panning knobs, and that would work fine for this.  I think the old Nakamichi 3 channel mixer that was provided with their 3-mic sets worked that way, but I've never used one of those.  However, the mixer you linked to doesn't appear to have any channel routing capability and you'd probably end up with the center mic mixed only into the left or right channel.  You might be able to use a 'Y' cable and adapters to split the center mic signal to feed both of it's mono inputs and keep the mixer's attenuators for those channels the same so the center signal is panned center, and feed the mixers stereo input with the left and right mic signals, but I can't guarantee that will work.  I suspect a different mixer would work better.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2013, 07:25:17 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline dyneq

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Re: shotgun mics usage
« Reply #27 on: November 26, 2013, 09:50:16 PM »
Thanks for any uploads. I'd love to hear this setup, specifically the 2 omni/1 directional idea you brought up.

I've used my strongest google fu to search for a mixer with TRS 1/8" inputs/output and this was the only one I could find.

Online Gutbucket

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Re: shotgun mics usage
« Reply #28 on: November 26, 2013, 10:25:18 PM »
You'll have better luck finding an appropriate mixer with RCA or 1/4" inputs and using interconnect cables terminated with the those connectors at the mixer side or, less ideally, adapters for your existing interconnect cables.

It will take me some time, but I'll work on getting a few samples together when I get a chance.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Red Boink

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Re: shotgun mics usage
« Reply #29 on: January 22, 2014, 10:15:24 PM »
I've had good results with AKG 568s in certain situations.  Everything is a series of compromises.

 

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