Topic: Record First Row, mic under chair

[thebeaker]

Hi all,

Tomorrow my favorite poprock Band will play the Last gig and retires.
I really want to enjoy the concert so i decided not to record. I want to enjoy it. But my heart will bleed not having the Last Show on tape - no Matter it is not first class quality as usual.. It is a seated gig and i will be in row number 1.
So i thought maybe to set my church audio omni ca 11 under the Seat and let it go.
I use a batterybox and a Sony pcma 10.

Do you think it might be hearable? Shall i use bass rolloff?
Any other suggestion to keep enjoying it and still record this as a memory?

Thanks in advice!

[perks]

I'd try to get the mics on your person and up much higher than the floor.

Under the seat you will likely get music but you will also get all the noises of the seats, people's feet, anything that hits the floor, etc.

If you are going to go thru all the trouble to make a recording why not make it the best recording possible?

[tim in jersey]

Up in the hat. Figure it out.

[thebeaker]

I want to sing and keep moving. Thats why i want to get rid of Equipment

[jerryfreak]

singing and recording are not compatible

[thebeaker]

I have already one record of that Show. I just want to enjoy it for the Last time they perform, but still like to have a record of todays Last gig. Does not need to have highest quality, just to have it for emotional reasons

[goodcooker]

Do whatever you want. If enjoying yourself is more important than getting the tape then make it easy on yourself.

I have put the recorder somewhere besides where I'm sitting ( a ledge, shelf, FOH mix position) when my seat was less than ideal but if this is a not really allowed job you may not have that option.

[RyanJ]

I have put the recorder somewhere besides where I'm sitting ( a ledge, shelf, FOH mix position) when my seat was less than ideal but if this is a not really allowed job you may not have that option.

Yeah, I have done this as well. Mostly when I go see DJs play.

[daspyknows]

Either do it right or don't bother.  If it sounds like crap you will never listen to it and regret it.  If having fun is more important to you then you made your call.  IMHO putting gear on the floor is a waste off effort.

[ilduclo]

Put the gear someplace else, on stage or on a wall using gaffer tape, then sign your friggin heart out, just not so loud it’ll get on the recording!

[datbrad]

It sounds like the OP is saying they play the same setlist every show, which is why he's not worried about quality. But, since this is the subject band's last show, what if they break from their setlist and play some rarities or have something special up their sleeve. I say do it right, or leave the gear at home and just enjoy the show. The fence won't hold a taper, you have to pick a side, trust me......

[tapeheadtoo]

Trust me.  I've done this before (put recorder on floor) and the results were not listenable.

[thebeaker]

So back at home and satisfied with the result. Had my Sony pcma10 lying on ground on a jacket. Locut on and rec Level 2 with internal mics. Music is not distorted although very loud with much bass.
In Front of us was the stage about 3m away in eyeheight with a stack pointed to us down 

So maybe this helps other people in a similar situation.

[daspyknows]

Post a sample so we can hear what you are satisfied with.

[MakersMarc]

Either do it right or don't bother.  If it sounds like crap you will never listen to it and regret it.  If having fun is more important to you then you made your call.  IMHO putting gear on the floor is a waste off effort.

Ditto. Gaff the churchies inside a baseball cap, run the wire down shirt, to preamp or battery box. You can dance all you want, I do. Go big or don’t bother. Under the seat is Furbie territory and complete 💩.

[heathen]

Either do it right or don't bother.  If it sounds like crap you will never listen to it and regret it.  If having fun is more important to you then you made your call.  IMHO putting gear on the floor is a waste off effort.

Isn't something better than nothing?

Also, whether a recording is done "right" is completely subjective.

[lmgbtapes]

singing and recording are not compatible

disagree.. I have a few tapes I love & others have enjoyed where I let loose a few times on 3-4 songs out of 20. make me cringe? yeah. better than not having a tape? absolutely.

[daspyknows]

Either do it right or don't bother.  If it sounds like crap you will never listen to it and regret it.  If having fun is more important to you then you made your call.  IMHO putting gear on the floor is a waste off effort.

Isn't something better than nothing?

Also, whether a recording is done "right" is completely subjective.

For me, no.  If I f up a recording I rarely will listen again.  If I do a half assed job it pisses me off more knowing I made the decision myself.  By right, I mean do everything I can to make the best recording possible.  Maybe I hold myself to a higher standard but I would have traded back to a better spot too.  I think back to when I had a problem with my NBox.  I recorded a few songs with the internals and thought what the hell am I doing and shut it down.  I listened to about 10 seconds afterwards and just deleted the files.  Again, to each his or her own but for me there is a definite right way to do it.  If someone asks I will give them my answer.

[heathen]

Either do it right or don't bother.  If it sounds like crap you will never listen to it and regret it.  If having fun is more important to you then you made your call.  IMHO putting gear on the floor is a waste off effort.

Isn't something better than nothing?

Also, whether a recording is done "right" is completely subjective.

For me, no.  If I f up a recording I rarely will listen again.  If I do a half assed job it pisses me off more knowing I made the decision myself.  By right, I mean do everything I can to make the best recording possible.  Maybe I hold myself to a higher standard but I would have traded back to a better spot too.  I think back to when I had a problem with my NBox.  I recorded a few songs with the internals and thought what the hell am I doing and shut it down.  I listened to about 10 seconds afterwards and just deleted the files.  Again, to each his or her own but for me there is a definite right way to do it.  If someone asks I will give them my answer.

Even though I don't know you personally, I respect you as a taper.  It just irks me to see someone told "Either do it right or don't bother."  I don't know if OP is new at this or not, but nonetheless I'd hate to think that someone might be pushed away from the hobby because they don't think they are doing it "right" by someone else's standard (whether it's OP or someone else who reads this thread).  Everyone has different standards, and what is thoroughly enjoyable to one person might be unlistenable garbage to another.  And vice versa.  If someone wants to try recording with their recorder sitting on the floor, who is it hurting?  If it doesn't come out well then at least it's a learning experience.  Making suggestions about other methods they could try is one thing, but saying they shouldn't even bother recording is another thing.

[nulldogmas]

I have made decent recordings with mics on or at least near the floor. I wouldn't recommend it if there are better options, but sort of like "the best camera is the one you have with you," it can be significantly better than nothing.

[TheMetalist]

Tomorrow my favorite poprock Band will play the Last gig and retires.
I really want to enjoy the concert so i decided not to record. I want to enjoy it. But my heart will bleed not having the Last Show on tape - no Matter it is not first class quality as usual.. It is a seated gig and i will be in row number 1.
So i thought maybe to set my church audio omni ca 11 under the Seat and let it go.
I use a batterybox and a Sony pcma 10.

How was the show? How did the recording turn out?

[jerryfreak]

i have no problem with people doing it 'the right way' or bust... on their own terms. Thats called internal quality control

when you try to tell someone else what the 'right way' is, its a slippery slope that often ends up with people waving their mics around like dicks

i dont bother to track out and officially release shows i bone... but i will throw it up on soundcloud for people to hear warts and all

[edtyre]

Either do it right or don't bother.  If it sounds like crap you will never listen to it and regret it.  If having fun is more important to you then you made your call.  IMHO putting gear on the floor is a waste off effort.

Isn't something better than nothing?

Also, whether a recording is done "right" is completely subjective.

For me, no.  If I f up a recording I rarely will listen again.  If I do a half assed job it pisses me off more knowing I made the decision myself.  By right, I mean do everything I can to make the best recording possible.  Maybe I hold myself to a higher standard but I would have traded back to a better spot too.  I think back to when I had a problem with my NBox.  I recorded a few songs with the internals and thought what the hell am I doing and shut it down.  I listened to about 10 seconds afterwards and just deleted the files.  Again, to each his or her own but for me there is a definite right way to do it.  If someone asks I will give them my answer.

I’m with you bro, we didn’t get to be world class tapers
by taking short cuts or doing things that are easy, and we have
suffered great physical pain and stress to make a top notch recording.

[daspyknows]

Either do it right or don't bother.  If it sounds like crap you will never listen to it and regret it.  If having fun is more important to you then you made your call.  IMHO putting gear on the floor is a waste off effort.

Isn't something better than nothing?

Also, whether a recording is done "right" is completely subjective.

For me, no.  If I f up a recording I rarely will listen again.  If I do a half assed job it pisses me off more knowing I made the decision myself.  By right, I mean do everything I can to make the best recording possible.  Maybe I hold myself to a higher standard but I would have traded back to a better spot too.  I think back to when I had a problem with my NBox.  I recorded a few songs with the internals and thought what the hell am I doing and shut it down.  I listened to about 10 seconds afterwards and just deleted the files.  Again, to each his or her own but for me there is a definite right way to do it.  If someone asks I will give them my answer.

Even though I don't know you personally, I respect you as a taper.  It just irks me to see someone told "Either do it right or don't bother."  I don't know if OP is new at this or not, but nonetheless I'd hate to think that someone might be pushed away from the hobby because they don't think they are doing it "right" by someone else's standard (whether it's OP or someone else who reads this thread).  Everyone has different standards, and what is thoroughly enjoyable to one person might be unlistenable garbage to another.  And vice versa.  If someone wants to try recording with their recorder sitting on the floor, who is it hurting?  If it doesn't come out well then at least it's a learning experience.  Making suggestions about other methods they could try is one thing, but saying they shouldn't even bother recording is another thing.

I hear you but in this case it is not a noob taper who was asking for advice on how to do it so he could get a tape without putting in the effort.  This is a have your cake and eat it too using the overused cliche.  If the recording is important enough to ask the question, then go all in.  If it is not then don't.  The only person it could hurt is the taper who will regret not going all in years from now if this was an epic final show.  My favorite band's final show would never be a learning experience.  It would be go big or go home.  He asked for opinions and advice.  That was mine.

[lsd2525]

Isn't under a front row seat with internal microphones Furbie's go-to recording technique? 

[Gutbucket]

Could actually make for good placement for a show in a small room with no stage and no PA reinforcement!

Otherwise, to quote the 8-ball- "Outlook not so good"

[MakersMarc]

Either do it right or don't bother.  If it sounds like crap you will never listen to it and regret it.  If having fun is more important to you then you made your call.  IMHO putting gear on the floor is a waste off effort.

Isn't something better than nothing?

Also, whether a recording is done "right" is completely subjective.

For me, no.  If I f up a recording I rarely will listen again.  If I do a half assed job it pisses me off more knowing I made the decision myself.  By right, I mean do everything I can to make the best recording possible.  Maybe I hold myself to a higher standard but I would have traded back to a better spot too.  I think back to when I had a problem with my NBox.  I recorded a few songs with the internals and thought what the hell am I doing and shut it down.  I listened to about 10 seconds afterwards and just deleted the files.  Again, to each his or her own but for me there is a definite right way to do it.  If someone asks I will give them my answer.

I’m with you bro, we didn’t get to be world class tapers
by taking short cuts or doing things that are easy, and we have
suffered great physical pain and stress to make a top notch recording.

.

First world pain and suffering.   

[jerryfreak]

Either do it right or don't bother.  If it sounds like crap you will never listen to it and regret it.  If having fun is more important to you then you made your call.  IMHO putting gear on the floor is a waste off effort.

Isn't something better than nothing?

Also, whether a recording is done "right" is completely subjective.

For me, no.  If I f up a recording I rarely will listen again.  If I do a half assed job it pisses me off more knowing I made the decision myself.  By right, I mean do everything I can to make the best recording possible.  Maybe I hold myself to a higher standard but I would have traded back to a better spot too.  I think back to when I had a problem with my NBox.  I recorded a few songs with the internals and thought what the hell am I doing and shut it down.  I listened to about 10 seconds afterwards and just deleted the files.  Again, to each his or her own but for me there is a definite right way to do it.  If someone asks I will give them my answer.

I’m with you bro, we didn’t get to be world class tapers
by taking short cuts or doing things that are easy, and we have
suffered great physical pain and stress to make a top notch recording.

.

First world pain and suffering.   

risking our lives out there every night like John K.

[Gutbucket]

Pain is relative, like time..  just image a never ending family reunion!

But yeah, we all have our own personal thresholds of acceptability.  I see it as a higher level taper skill to know oneself well enough to discern when to, and when not to make the effort, while being relatively assured of one's future satisfaction with the decision.

[Gutbucket]

Looking back, a show last year comes to mind.  Big "non-open" arena show, taper friend and his wife in town for it and good floor seats, but not really something either of us want to "make a real taping effort at".. yet we're tapers and cannot avoid feeling the pull..  so we sat next to each other and had a good time with recorders in our front shirt pockets. 

We treated it as an informal "internal mic comp" between the M10 and DR2d.  It was fun to record without any self-pressure to "do it right", it was fun to just have a good time and not care, and it was fun to compare the recordings afterwards, then basically forget about them.  I even briefly considered starting a tongue-n-cheek comp thread here, including a matrix of the two sources.

[MakersMarc]

I think it's  fine to use cheap gear, not everyone can swing great gear. I do hate lack of effort though. No reason a ca-14 taper can't be as ballsy as the taper with high quality gear, and location can go a long ways to make economy gear sound good. Not under the seat. Just no reason for that.

[opsopcopolis]

singing and recording are not compatible

disagree.. I have a few tapes I love & others have enjoyed where I let loose a few times on 3-4 songs out of 20. make me cringe? yeah. better than not having a tape? absolutely.

I stealthed a show a few weeks ago that I sang along to pretty loudly the entire time. Can't hear it at all. I was actually pretty surprised at the result.

[Gutbucket]

I think it's  fine to use cheap gear, not everyone can swing great gear. I do hate lack of effort though. No reason a ca-14 taper can't be as ballsy as the taper with high quality gear, and location can go a long ways to make economy gear sound good.

+T
Effort, determination, and technique are the most important assets in our pursuit of the heat.

[opsopcopolis]

I think it's  fine to use cheap gear, not everyone can swing great gear. I do hate lack of effort though. No reason a ca-14 taper can't be as ballsy as the taper with high quality gear, and location can go a long ways to make economy gear sound good.

+T
Effort, determination, and technique are the most important assets in our pursuit of the heat.

I agree with the general sentiment, BUT taping (at least for me) is a pursuit based almost entirely on personal enjoyment. I tape the shows I want to see, in the seats I want to be in. That just so happens to usually correspond with the best sounding seats in the house. I can totally identify with wanting to put the gear down (or at least physically separate it from yourself) so you can have a good time, and I've been in a situation where I wish I had done that instead of making the effort to make a better tape... At the end of the day, if you ruin your enjoyment of a show by forcing yourself to be a stoic mic stand, then what's the point?

[heathen]

At the end of the day, if you ruin your enjoyment of a show by forcing yourself to be a stoic mic stand, then what's the point?

I was thinking about this the other day and it occurred to me that the hassles of stealthing (or even open taping) could for some people, and in some circumstances, be a higher grade of fun like Steve Rinella describes it.  Basically, he says that something like a roller coaster is low grade fun because you enjoy it in the moment and then the feeling immediately disappears and you basically forget it.  Something that sucks in the moment, though, can be a higher grade of fun because you can look back on it for years and enjoy reflecting on how much it sucked.  If you were with friends enduring the suck it can be a moment you all talk about with fondness, in a way, later on.

Of course everyone has to make their own decision about what grade of fun they want, what sort of balances they want to strike, etc.  But that concept of high and low grade fun is something I think about in a variety of contexts, including this bizarre hobby.

[Gutbucket]

+T & +T

Certainly a grain or more of truth in that.  My primary motivation is my own personal enjoyment and deeper, richer appreciation of the music.  It's also a fun challenge making the recording in the moment and everything that goes along with that, as is figuring out how best to go about doing it and revising the approach over time.  And although it is likely apparent given the nature of my participation in this forum, gaining a deeper understanding of acoustics and solving the engineering challenges of creating the recordings we make in challenging situations is an undeniably attractive aspect.

For many the primary satisfaction is sharing the music with fellow music fans. Although I rarely post my recordings, sharing personal insights into the pursuit of this art with other tapers is a big motivation as well.

We sure ain't doing this for the money, as that all flows the opposite direction. Make great tapes folks, whatever the motivation!

[bonghitwillie]

I have done this before. I was in the 2nd row center. The seat in front of me (front row) had a horizontal bar and and lots of open space under the cushion. The band was 10 feet in front of the front row and on the ground, no elevated stage. It was a stealth job. I brought two rigs. One rig had mics clipped to shirt the other one was under the seat. I used gaff tape to hold the mics in place and nobody knew what I did. Not sure if one recording is better than the other. but they both sound good.

[sdc]

In fairness to the OP, this does sound like it was a particularly special show, hence the dilemma.  Generally, I'm fine being stoic. But, that said, there was one show, a year or two ago, where I decided that no one would be better or worse off if I didn't make a recording, and around the third song I put down the recorder and just danced for the rest the show instead of recording it.  People captured other sets on the tour, and I selfishly chose my own pleasure over posterity. 

[Gutbucket]

I made a very nice open rig recording for a top local instrumental musician with a great band Friday night, and the most optimal recording position in the entire room was directly underneath the first row of seating.

It was under one of two picnic tables immediately in front of the band, and I'm not joking in the slightest when I say this was the most optimal recording position.  The recording would not have worked out as well if the rig was placed on top of the same the table, nor anywhere else IME.  The room is a brewery, operating in an open-air sheet steel walled warehouse type building - a very reverberant space.  There is also a rather high noise floor from brewery refrigeration equipment in the back of the room and noise and gusty breeze from two gigantic ceiling fans.  Last year a modified shipping container was added to form a partly enclosed stage, converted with the front wall cut out of it and sound-damping material with woven wooden lath over it added to the interior back wall and ceiling.  This generally improved the sound by directing the primary sound output from a non PA amplified band out forward towards the audience rather than directly illuminating the ceiling and sidewalls.  Yet even with that improvement the critical radius of reverberation in the room remains small.  The reverberant quality is not bad, but is quite high in level any considerable distance from the stage. 

By placing my mic array directly into a folding tripod foot without any vertical stand or bar, the microphones were only about 3" or 4" above the concrete floor.  This provided a direct line of sight forward to the band beneath the bench seat, yet also a clear line of sight out horizontally in all other directions to the interior dimensional limits of the space.  The picnic table and bench seat surfaces above the array acted as horizontal baffles, attenuating reverberant sound arriving from above the horizontal floor-plane, shielding the microphones from fan gusts, and significantly reducing the pickup of chatter from nearby audience.  This worked especially well with the OMT8 recording array I was using, which has microphones pointing in all horizontal directions, including two wide-spaced omnis and a pair of supercardioids facing rearward.  The positioning placed the front facing microphones in a sort of left of center stage-lip position in front of the 5-piece band, with the rear and side facing microphones picking up good ambient and reverberant room sound without wind, much close chatter, or too much pickup of the vertical arriving reverberant room sound component, which in any horizontal-arrayed microphone arrangement tends to be reproduced more monophonically than the horizontally arriving reverberant component.

I post this as a reminder to approach each recording situation creatively, considering the core goals of the recording with an open mind, rather than falling into rigid ideas of what always works and what doesn't.
Its a mindset particularly well suited to amatuear live music recording, even more than it is to other types of recording, and its one of the reasons I love doing it.

[guitard]

At the end of the day, if you ruin your enjoyment of a show by forcing yourself to be a stoic mic stand, then what's the point?

Just speaking for myself ... on those rare occasions when I can't tape, I feel absolutely miserable and just can't enjoy the show.  And the better the show, the more miserable I feel -- because I can't stop thinking about the great tape I should be walking out with and enjoying for years to come.

[Gutbucket]

I've gotten better at not having to record without suffering psychologically.  Yet if/when the music magic coalesses strongly I too suffer strong misery.

In addition to not needing to wear the mics and sit still up front the entire time (which I had considered), another advantage of the under-picnic-table-seating recording arrangement last Friday was that very few audience members realized a recording was being made, including my GF who showed up partway through the second set to find me sitting outside watching the performance through the open end-door of the shipping container-stage.  Assuming I'd be inside acting as a human recording machine, she smiled and said "I thought you were recording tonight", to which I replied "I am.. let's go get a drink at the bar where we can talk", upon which we reconnected again after a few weeks apart.

It feels good when everything just sort of clicks into place, in more ways than one.

[ThePiedPiper]

Gutbucket,
I wish you would write a book or have a webcast or SOMETHING. I learn so much from reading your posts. You and a handful of others on here has made a world of difference in the way I approach and enjoy this hobby. I can't thank you enough for all the stuff I have learned from you ...

[nassau73]

At the end of the day, if you ruin your enjoyment of a show by forcing yourself to be a stoic mic stand, then what's the point?

Just speaking for myself ... on those rare occasions when I can't tape, I feel absolutely miserable and just can't enjoy the show.  And the better the show, the more miserable I feel -- because I can't stop thinking about the great tape I should be walking out with and enjoying for years to come.

Just one other comment about being a "stoic mic stand"...

I have tinnitus and wear earplugs at all shows. There are so many times during the show, I can hear the people to the side, in front and behind talking, coughing, laughing, latecomers trying to find their seats or whatever louder than the show itself.

After I get home and edit out the whistles and attenuate the clapping on the recording, I get to hear the show in an entirely different light. Many of the conversations were not picked up by the mics as much as they were by my ears.

So, while my enjoyment of the show is not diminished by being a mic stand (it's kinda weird to just bob your head up and down to not get the side to side sweeping sound), it's really nice to be able to hear the show a bit more "unencumbered" by the noise once you have the recording (especially if it was an above average show, or as here on Maui, we have some special guests or performances that normally would not be performed on the mainland.

[ThePiedPiper]

Just one other comment about being a "stoic mic stand"...

I have tinnitus and wear earplugs at all shows. There are so many times during the show, I can hear the people to the side, in front and behind talking, coughing, laughing, latecomers trying to find their seats or whatever louder than the show itself.

After I get home and edit out the whistles and attenuate the clapping on the recording, I get to hear the show in an entirely different light. Many of the conversations were not picked up by the mics as much as they were by my ears.

So, while my enjoyment of the show is not diminished by being a mic stand (it's kinda weird to just bob your head up and down to not get the side to side sweeping sound), it's really nice to be able to hear the show a bit more "unencumbered" by the noise once you have the recording (especially if it was an above average show, or as here on Maui, we have some special guests or performances that normally would not be performed on the mainland.

I experience that as well. With ear plugs I hear noise and talking a lot more pronounced than what it captured by the mics. Always a pleasant surprise!

[Gutbucket]

Thanks Pied!

Always encouraging when the recording one makes sounds better than it did live.

[kindms]

Thanks Pied!

Always encouraging when the recording one makes sounds better than it did live.

had the unfortunate experience recently where the lighting guy wouldnt shut the F up. was convinced all was lost.

got home and can barely hear him on the hypers

but live it was ruining the show
 

[opsopcopolis]

I find that to be the case the vast majority of the time. Particularly when stealthing

[tim in jersey]

Thanks Pied!

Always encouraging when the recording one makes sounds better than it did live.

I've often experienced that. Expected a turd, but turned out to be a diamond. Used to be the polar oops-osite [sic intended] when I first started.

After 20+ years of recording I guess I've learned a thing or 2. Much of which I learned from this message board...