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Author Topic: In a SBD/AUD matrix, what should the mics capture?  (Read 1720 times)

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Offline billydee

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Re: In a SBD/AUD matrix, what should the mics capture?
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2021, 03:14:42 PM »
  What kind of audience mics are they generally using in addition to the close mics? Typically a wide-spaced pair at the outer edges of the stage facing out at the audience to get the audience reaction and room sound.  Everything else is SBD.

For this application (relatively complete SBD mix), short shotguns pointed about 10 rows back are commonly employed.
I've had quite a few opportunities to place a pair of mics anywhere I'd like on or near stage while also getting a balanced soundboard feed on a 4-channel recorder (Tascam DR701D). I've almost always opted to use omni capsules in this application and was most recently configured pointing out over the audience as in the attached picture.

And with this recent setup (pictured) I hoped to get a little of everything with the mics, some of the side fill speakers, some onstage sound, maybe a little PA and of course some audience. But in reality I got a little more audience noise (applause) then I would have wanted. Not a big deal in the end as I also recorded the live mix at about a 60% sbd/40% aud ratio onto channels 5 & 6, and find that adding a bit more straight soundboard to that live mix works well.

I was originally going to point the mics straight up in the air but at the last minute opted for the audience-facing angle in the picture. Would that have been better? Who knows...I'm just thankful for the opportunity to try different setups.

That all said I find the idea of pointing some sort of shotgun or more directional mic at the audience intriguing, and just giving up on the concept of capturing everything at once with the mics.

Thanks to the OP for starting this thread and all the good input!

Offline morst

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Re: In a SBD/AUD matrix, what should the mics capture?
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2021, 03:35:49 PM »
I've almost always opted to use omni capsules in this application and was most recently configured pointing out over the audience as in the attached picture.

And with this recent setup (pictured) I hoped to get a little of everything with the mics, some of the side fill speakers, some onstage sound, maybe a little PA and of course some audience. But in reality I got a little more audience noise (applause) then I would have wanted. Not a big deal in the end as I also recorded the live mix at about a 60% sbd/40% aud ratio onto channels 5 & 6, and find that adding a bit more straight soundboard to that live mix works well.
Have you heard the good word about the Subcardioid pattern? Also known as hypocardioid, it is mathematically a hybrid of omni and cardioid. So it has less coloration than a cardioid would, as well as less susceptibility to wind, while still allowing for some rejection in one direction.
I got a pair of Neumann KM143's which are their "Wide Cardioid" pattern, and I find them ideal for stage lip use because I can point them away from the audience (aka aim at the kick drum haha!)
sample mix
https://archive.org/details/CVB2018-08-31.FLAC1648/CVB2018-08-31t15.flac

Offline vantheman

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Re: In a SBD/AUD matrix, what should the mics capture?
« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2021, 04:00:44 PM »
I think it was Mix magazine which printed an interview with Steely Dan's engineer Roger Nichols, who was mixing stage monitors when they first tried IEMs in the early 1990s.
The first show, Donald and Walter complained that the crowd hated it, because they didn't hear any reaction.
On night two, Roger placed left and right shotguns aimed some rows back and dialed those in, and they all realized that the first night was like wearing earplugs against the crowd![/font]

That's funny. I wasn't aware that Nichols did anything other than studio work for them. I was just reading that he spent something like a year doing nothing but drums for Kamakiriad. I know that album has its fans, but I still can't get through it (no fault of Roger Nichols obviously).
AT U853A Cardioids (SP-CMC-4U) > SP-SPSB-10 12V > Sony A10

Offline billydee

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Re: In a SBD/AUD matrix, what should the mics capture?
« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2021, 04:08:09 PM »
I've almost always opted to use omni capsules in this application and was most recently configured pointing out over the audience as in the attached picture.

And with this recent setup (pictured) I hoped to get a little of everything with the mics, some of the side fill speakers, some onstage sound, maybe a little PA and of course some audience. But in reality I got a little more audience noise (applause) then I would have wanted. Not a big deal in the end as I also recorded the live mix at about a 60% sbd/40% aud ratio onto channels 5 & 6, and find that adding a bit more straight soundboard to that live mix works well.
Have you heard the good word about the Subcardioid pattern? Also known as hypocardioid, it is mathematically a hybrid of omni and cardioid. So it has less coloration than a cardioid would, as well as less susceptibility to wind, while still allowing for some rejection in one direction.
I got a pair of Neumann KM143's which are their "Wide Cardioid" pattern, and I find them ideal for stage lip use because I can point them away from the audience (aka aim at the kick drum haha!)
sample mix
https://archive.org/details/CVB2018-08-31.FLAC1648/CVB2018-08-31t15.flac
Hey morst, what's up my friend! Thanks to that link I'll be listening to "(We're A) Bad Trip" the rest of the day!  :headphones:
Back on topic- yes I am familiar with sub and hyper card mics but don't presently own any. I'm a stubborn user of Naks and related clones and the pictured setup was a Teac ME-120 phantom-modded pair. So with my limited quiver it's just omni, card and long-ass shotgun caps for my options.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: In a SBD/AUD matrix, what should the mics capture?
« Reply #19 on: September 14, 2021, 05:16:50 PM »
EmRR just posted yesterday about his use of audience-facing wide spaced shotgun mics last weekend over in the shotgun mics usage thread (< link points to his 1st post about it yesterday), and we've discussed some details about it over there since.

Shotguns used in that way seems be a commonly used technique, but as mentioned in that thread, I wonder if shotguns are really the most appropriate choice for the application.  The intent is to maximize pickup of the audience with minimal pickup from stage and PA.  Okay I'm onboard with that, but with the stuff being rejected being potentially louder than what is on-axis, I'd think supercardioids to be a superior choice due to the much better off-axis behavior of a supercardioid than a shotgun, in the interest of keeping the significant audible bleed that inevitably occurs more natural sounding.  That way one should be able to use more level from them if desired before the rejected stuff becomes problematically audible.

The opposite (polar opposite, heh, heh) would be substitution with omnis like billydee mentions using.  With no meaningful directional sensitivity, placement becomes a critical balance tool, but what is picked up is likely to sound more natural.   If they can be placed appropriately and used like he mentions, getting a little bit of everything around them to good effect, that approach can work great.  Its really more like an on-stage mic'ing thing that includes up front audience.

I found using the edge of the stage itself as sort of a baffle (directional mics placed below the lip facing out) to help significantly when the goal is to keep as much stage sound out of the audience channels as possible.

I think it was Mix magazine which printed an interview with Steely Dan's engineer Roger Nichols, who was mixing stage monitors when they first tried IEMs in the early 1990s.
The first show, Donald and Walter complained that the crowd hated it, because they didn't hear any reaction.
On night two, Roger placed left and right shotguns aimed some rows back and dialed those in, and they all realized that the first night was like wearing earplugs against the crowd![/font]

I heard the same idea was the driver behind the origin of the "Healy method" of placing on stage two back to back LD omnis spaced about the same as one's ears angled 180 degrees apart - not so much for recording, but rather for feeding the then new highly-isolating IEMs the band had started using in place of monitor wedges with a bit of on-stage and audience sound.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline crackmc

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Re: In a SBD/AUD matrix, what should the mics capture?
« Reply #20 on: September 16, 2021, 12:51:09 AM »
my preferred setup:

2x SBD
2x on stage omnis (split wide)
2x on stage cardioids (DFC/wide near-coincident/ORTF/whatever)
2x FOB/FOH cardioids/hypers/subs/depends on the room

throw it all into a DAW > save numerous beta mixes > spend a month listening to each mix in the car, home, headphones, etc. > ultimately remain undecided re: which mix you like best

you know, the usual
you'll love it
it's a way of life

Offline morst

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Re: In a SBD/AUD matrix, what should the mics capture?
« Reply #21 on: September 16, 2021, 08:35:27 AM »
my preferred setup:

2x SBD
2x on stage omnis (split wide)
2x on stage cardioids (DFC/wide near-coincident/ORTF/whatever)

2x FOB/FOH cardioids/hypers/subs/depends on the room

throw it all into a DAW > save numerous beta mixes > spend a month listening to each mix in the car, home, headphones, etc. > ultimately remain undecided re: which mix you like best

you know, the usual
Where do you aim the stage cards? At the band?

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: In a SBD/AUD matrix, what should the mics capture?
« Reply #22 on: September 16, 2021, 09:37:00 AM »
..throw it all into a DAW > save numerous beta mixes > spend a month listening to each mix in the car, home, headphones, etc. > ultimately remain undecided re: which mix you like best

you know, the usual

 :yack:
Great TS signature line there
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline fobstl

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Re: In a SBD/AUD matrix, what should the mics capture?
« Reply #23 on: September 16, 2021, 12:19:24 PM »
throw it all into a DAW > save numerous beta mixes > spend a month listening to each mix in the car, home, headphones, etc. > ultimately remain undecided re: which mix you like best
:yack:This is pretty much me for all of my recordings. I end up posting very few shows because I get hung up on the mix, get bored with it, then record another show and move on to that one. Rinse and repeat.

Offline crackmc

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Re: In a SBD/AUD matrix, what should the mics capture?
« Reply #24 on: September 17, 2021, 12:07:00 AM »
my preferred setup:

2x SBD
2x on stage omnis (split wide)
2x on stage cardioids (DFC/wide near-coincident/ORTF/whatever)

2x FOB/FOH cardioids/hypers/subs/depends on the room

throw it all into a DAW > save numerous beta mixes > spend a month listening to each mix in the car, home, headphones, etc. > ultimately remain undecided re: which mix you like best

you know, the usual


Where do you aim the stage cards? At the band?

yup
i'll point a cardioid at the crowd if i have a free channel
i've ran XY @ the crowd when FOB/FOH isn't doable with really good results
(but really a mono center channel works better than stereo in this application IMO)
you'll love it
it's a way of life

Offline vantheman

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Re: In a SBD/AUD matrix, what should the mics capture?
« Reply #25 on: October 10, 2021, 07:58:29 PM »
I have a couple more questions that didn’t turn up a good search result -

Any reason why I should not run my CM4s on stage lip? I’ve read that these mics need a little breathing room away from ceilings. I gather this might also apply to a stage floor as well.

And for running my stage mics to the board, do I need XLR cables long enough to extend to the board, or will the FOH guy have that covered? And if so, how much length would I need to have a high likelihood of reaching the board in a 200ish capacity club?
AT U853A Cardioids (SP-CMC-4U) > SP-SPSB-10 12V > Sony A10

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: In a SBD/AUD matrix, what should the mics capture?
« Reply #26 on: October 11, 2021, 09:30:31 AM »
Your CM4s will work great at stagelip if the sound is good there. Don't fear the floor.  Running low to the floor on stage can work really well, often providing less obscured direct lines from a majority of on-stage sound sources.

Yes, maybe, depends.
Sometimes easiest to run a separate recorder up at the stage, in which case you will likely need to sync/stretch one source to mix with the other.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline vantheman

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Re: In a SBD/AUD matrix, what should the mics capture?
« Reply #27 on: October 11, 2021, 09:43:43 AM »
Your CM4s will work great at stagelip if the sound is good there. Don't fear the floor.  Running low to the floor on stage can work really well, often providing less obscured direct lines from a majority of on-stage sound sources.

Yes, maybe, depends.
Sometimes easiest to run a separate recorder up at the stage, in which case you will likely need to sync/stretch one source to mix with the other.

Thanks again Gutbucket. I’m starting to lean toward running my own deck up by the stage. If nothing else it’ll give me a chance to get my bearings working up there, and then sometime down the road start running the multitrack recorder back at the board.
AT U853A Cardioids (SP-CMC-4U) > SP-SPSB-10 12V > Sony A10

Offline opsopcopolis

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Re: In a SBD/AUD matrix, what should the mics capture?
« Reply #28 on: October 11, 2021, 10:37:14 AM »
If the FOH is game, it’s definitely easiest to run the stage lip mics through the snake to FOH.
Mics: Berliner CM-33, CA-14 card, CA-11 card & omni, AT-853, Sony ECM-907
Recorders: Tascam DR-60D, Tascam DR-05, Sony Hi-MD

Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: In a SBD/AUD matrix, what should the mics capture?
« Reply #29 on: October 11, 2021, 11:01:44 AM »

All mileage may vary, of course depending on seat location etc.
BUT Direct answer to the cable question is:
Carry a pair of 50' XLR to XLR with XLR to 1/4 inch adapters for the breakout box onstage. Then carry a shorter pair (10-15') of XLR to 1/4 inch and or RCA for plugging from SBD to your deck.

If the FOH guy offers or has room, it is typically best to let him run your signal to the SBD via his snake and plug your mics into his breakout box.
music IS love

When you get confused, listen to the music play!

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