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Author Topic: Newbie question regarding mic selection  (Read 4732 times)

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Offline stizzal

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Newbie question regarding mic selection
« on: July 02, 2010, 09:46:38 PM »
Alright, hope some people here can help.  I'm just getting into taping, and got a free Sony ICD-UX71.  Let me cut you off by saying I know, its not an appropriate recorder for shows, but it was free so that's what I'm working with for now until I figure out if I like the hobby and until I get more money.

I do need a mic.  I've researched on this site and a few others and have listened to live recordings.  What are people's opinions between the Sony ECMMS907 and the Sony ECM719?  I'm going for concealment, but I want to be able to pick up the best sound I can.  My budget for a mic is around $130, so if there are other mics out there, please let me know.  I also probably need a separate battery pack for gain, so any suggestions there will be appreciated.  Thanks!

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Re: Newbie question regarding mic selection
« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2010, 12:48:48 AM »
Look into the Church Audio stuff.  People seem to have success with his gear.

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Offline Johnny Thunder

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Re: Newbie question regarding mic selection
« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2010, 12:22:26 PM »
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ What he said. Chris builds battery boxes too. Ask him for a quote on something like CAFS and bbox or CA-11 omnis & bbox for omni/st**lth, or maybe CA-11 cards & bbox for stealth cards. The CA-14's are a bit larger, and also come as either cards or omnis, but they have built in windscreens & a flatter frequency resopnse. (If I'm not mistaken) I have a set of CA-14's and a battery box coming, (hopfully in the next week or so), as I've listened to alot of recordings done with these mics and LOVE the results people are getting!

   Perhaps Chris will chime in here in a little bit. I hope he does as he'll be better able to help you select the mics that will work the best for what you intend to record. To quote Chris, microphones are like paint brushes. The thing is, it can be sorta hard to tell an artest which brush to use to get the imiage that's in his or her head onto the canvas. That's why I love that analogy so much. But as a beginning taper wanting to stealth, certain mics are going to be a bit more forgiving than others, and give you better results. Just like an art teacher can help guide a new artest to a particular brush to start off with, even moreso if the student can give the instructer some idea of what sort of painting they want to do, so can the hundreds of more experianced tapers here help to guide you to a starting point.

   It'll be helpful to know WHAT you'd like to tape mostly. Loud rock shows, or "quieter," rock/acoustic? I imagine given you want to st**lth, we're probably talking about loud rock shows here, and that's a good thing. You'll have more success and better sounding recordings using just a battery box (BB) and not a, "pre." (Microphone pre-amplifier for the sake of clarity.) A pre is pretty important is you're recording quieter sources. It amplifies the signal coming to the recorder from the mics. However, they do cost a good bit more than a battery box.

   Next is the question of, do you want alot of bass in your recordings? Do you have any interest in capturing the shows as faithfully as possible to what it sounded like when you were there, or do you want to be able to kind of taylor the sound on the fly? (IE maybe roll a bit of that bass off, as most loud rock shows actualy kind over-do the low frequencys, and though it sounds pretty cool at the show, it's sounds muddy when playing it back later.) If you'd like to get a faithful archive of the show the way it sounded there, you can always do what is called, "post production work, or "post." Using software like Adobe Audition, Cool Edit Pro or Audacity, you can re-eq the recording, make changes to the dynamics and tons more. I personaly love working in post as much as I love going to and archiving (taping) the shows.

   If you're really looking to give something back to this community, I'd suggest that I think most people prefer recordings that are as faithful a reproduction of the show as possible, and to do their own post production work to get it sounding they way THEY personaly like a recording to sound should they choose to do any post at all. After all, this IS about archiving something, and any archivist will tell you the whole idea is to archive the ORIGINAL, not an altered copy of the original.

   I sure hope you enjoy taping as much as I do. The more tapers there are out in the world, the more that's being added to the trading pool and the less shows that, "slip between the cracks," allowing potentialy once in a lifetime perfomances to be lost forever.

-JT

adrianf74

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Re: Newbie question regarding mic selection
« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2010, 01:12:40 PM »

Alright, hope some people here can help.  I'm just getting into taping, and got a free Sony ICD-UX71.  Let me cut you off by saying I know, its not an appropriate recorder for shows, but it was free so that's what I'm working with for now until I figure out if I like the hobby and until I get more money.

I do need a mic.  I've researched on this site and a few others and have listened to live recordings.  What are people's opinions between the Sony ECMMS907 and the Sony ECM719?  I'm going for concealment, but I want to be able to pick up the best sound I can.  My budget for a mic is around $130, so if there are other mics out there, please let me know.  I also probably need a separate battery pack for gain, so any suggestions there will be appreciated.  Thanks!
What they both said.... ^^^

For $130 (or so) you can likely pick up CA-14's (omni or cards), or a CAFS and a battery box.

I had Chris build me a CA-UBB (it's a battery box without the box - so it's essentially a 3.5mm stereo connector that terminates into some capacitors, etc. (that's just "glued" together) with a 9V clip).  It's the st*****iest of options.  I used my CAFS with it and have gotten some great results.  No "budget" mic is going to give you soundboard quality but I'm sure you'll be happier with the CAFS and battery box option over the ECM719.  The CAFS are ULTRA TINY and can be easily concealed anywhere (I just tape them to my glasses).

Good luck.

Offline fmaderjr

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Re: Newbie question regarding mic selection
« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2010, 03:41:16 PM »
For $130 (or so) you can likely pick up CA-14's (omni or cards), or a CAFS and a battery box.

I agree as to CA-14'S (I've used only the cards). I'm sure CAFS are great as well.

However the CA-14's definitely require a battery box to adequately power them with most recorders. The only exceptions may be the Marantz PDM-620 and the Microtracks, both of which provide nearly 5 volts of plug in power. I don't recommend the Microtracks though for other reasons.   
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adrianf74

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Re: Newbie question regarding mic selection
« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2010, 09:00:58 AM »
I agree as to CA-14'S (I've used only the cards). I'm sure CAFS are great as well.

However the CA-14's definitely require a battery box to adequately power them with most recorders. The only exceptions may be the Marantz PDM-620 and the Microtracks, both of which provide nearly 5 volts of plug in power. I don't recommend the Microtracks though for other reasons.

Considering the size of the CAFS capsules, I'm QUITE impressed with what they pick up (tonnes of bass).   Unfortunately the outdoor venues I've been at have had the higher frequencies suspended WAAAAAAY above me resulting in "muddier" raw recordings, however with a little EQ work in post, I've gotten these shows to sound great.

I don't have my CA-14's yet (ordered both cards and omnis because it'll be nice to use the bigger mics in situations where 007 isn't required).  I'm looking forward to trying them out and then posting my feedback - likely in "Team Church."  I used to own the older SP-CMC-8's (AT-933/C) but sold them to a local taper and pulled the trigger on the CA-14 package with Pre + Dead Rats + Cable + CA-UBB.

I love the form factor of the CA-UBB (Ugly Battery Box).  To call it a battery box is a bit of a misnomer, but paired with the CAFS, it's REALLY easy to "walk in" with.  I usually already have the mics run down my shirt (they're not detectable in a pat-down).

Back to the OP's question....

The OP might be also posied to check out the CA-1's.  They're a little bigger than the CAFS, but Chris has them on sale for $80 right now (never to be seen again) and paired with a CA-UBB, the OP would be looking at $110 + shipping (which should fit within his budget).

If the OP wants cards, I'm not sure what Chris' July Sales will be like but his June sales had the CA-14 cards at $99.  Might be worth checking out if the OP doesn't care as much about size.  It's all in what the OP plans to record.

Offline carpa

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Re: Newbie question regarding mic selection
« Reply #6 on: July 04, 2010, 06:44:53 PM »
Of course if you get something for free it's not worth complaining...

Apart from any consideration about quality of this unit, the main  point regarding this icd- ux 71 sony recorder is that it has automatic rocerding levels; you can choose between hi and lo sensitivity, but then level are automatically handled by the deck, so the dynamics will result compressed, like it happens in the  audio  of a consumer videocamera.

I own the same recorder, which I use for recording lectures and similar stuffs with very good results, but never used for music taping.

Only thing which I ask to  anybody who might know the answer is about the audio input settings on the menu (from the user manual I couldn't understand....). In fact  there is a choice between "mic in" and "audio in": "mic in" works for both internal mics or an external one, and the level is automatically adjusted  by the unit. 
"Audio in" is devoted to signals coming from other audio equipment, so it should act like a "line-input"; the only test I made was with an  external stereo mic  plugged into the input, and the recording is weak-almost inaudible- in the "audio in"mode.

While i just expected this being the mic signal not preamplified, I'm wondering if even in this case the recording level is automatic depending on peaks in the recorded music, or if the "audio-in" mode acts like a true unity gain line-input.

In this latter case, apart from the limitation coming from the possibility to record only mp3 files,  a little preamp (like 9100 ) might be worth of consideration over a battery box or the use of plug-in-power or a battery powered mic, the main advantage being the possibility to set the level from the preamp and get rid of the auto-level. The quality would stay mp3 but you could have a really super-stealth rig!

Any suggestion?
thanks
c



Offline stizzal

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Re: Newbie question regarding mic selection
« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2010, 11:07:32 PM »
Thanks to everyone for answering!  I'm going to have to get in touch with Chris.  I am definately going for stealthy as possible and plan on recording loud rock shows.  As J Thunder suggested, I have no problem keeping true to the how the show originally sounded and leaving it up to others to edit the recordings in post.  In fact, the less I have to mess around with any equipment during the show, the better.  Again, thanks for the guidance and anymore suggestions are greatly appreciated.

adrianf74

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Re: Newbie question regarding mic selection
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2010, 10:01:31 AM »
Thanks to everyone for answering!  I'm going to have to get in touch with Chris.  I am definately going for stealthy as possible and plan on recording loud rock shows.  As J Thunder suggested, I have no problem keeping true to the how the show originally sounded and leaving it up to others to edit the recordings in post.  In fact, the less I have to mess around with any equipment during the show, the better.  Again, thanks for the guidance and anymore suggestions are greatly appreciated.
No worries.  As stealthy as possible would probably be either CAFS-OMNI or CA-1 OMNI.  :)

I've used the CAFS OMNI's quite a bit the past week (one Amphitheatre show, and two free "open air" shows at different venues and locations).

With the CAFS, I've had to do a very small "bump" in the "high" mids to highs (i.e., +0-3dB from 1.3kHz to 15kHz) on a small curve.  By doing this, I've gotten some VERY excellent recordings.  The only issue with omni directional mics is that you'll get the "talkers" and "drunks" picked up.  Cards are nicer for avoiding this but they, generally, have less bass response as well as not being "wind" friendly.

Best of luck.

Offline stizzal

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Re: Newbie question regarding mic selection
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2010, 12:45:33 PM »
adrianf74, I do have a quick question regarding omni vs. card.  Most of the locations I see shows in are not big venues or open air places.  My understanding of omni's is that it they are excellent at picking up ambient noise and great if an amphitheatre has great acoustics, but would a card be more appropriate at small, inclosed venues?

adrianf74

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Re: Newbie question regarding mic selection
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2010, 01:00:25 PM »
adrianf74, I do have a quick question regarding omni vs. card.  Most of the locations I see shows in are not big venues or open air places.  My understanding of omni's is that it they are excellent at picking up ambient noise and great if an amphitheatre has great acoustics, but would a card be more appropriate at small, inclosed venues?
This is one of those "one size DOES NOT fit all" questions and everybody will have their own slant on the question.

From my own experiences, it really depends.  I've used both omnis and cards at the same outdoor Amphitheatre (from differering and similar seats) and find each result is *never* the same.  Omnis are good in outdoor venues because they're more wind friendly than cards - at the same time, cards are better when you've got a guy next to you who thinks he's Ric Flair from the WWE.  If I'm further back in an amphitheatre (even within 10 rows of the sound board), I'm likely to use cards if it's not windy.  If it is windy, in the first 10-15 rows of the 200's, or in the pit, I'll favour omnis.   I might favour cards if I've got a drunk guy next to me but I seldom bring more than one set of mics with me when I'm 007'ing.  :)

As far as smaller venues go, it also depends on the "room sound."  I've used both types of mics in the same venue and it depends on where I'm standing.  I'll only use omnis in a smaller club if I'm stack taping (which is standing about 15-20 ft from the stage) otherwise, I'll use cards and stand a little further back (about 2/3 of the distance to the soundboard from the stage -- or wherever there's a "gap" of people).

Hopefully this helps.

Offline carpa

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Re: Newbie question regarding mic selection
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2010, 04:53:50 PM »
Does any of you know something about the mic-in or audio-in mode aspect related to the automatic level in this recorder Sony ICD-UX71?

As I own one this recorder - lize Stizzal who opened this thread- I have been kept by the curiosity to learn something more about this ....
My question can be found some posts ago on this thread.
thanks
c

Offline stizzal

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Re: Newbie question regarding mic selection
« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2010, 04:55:18 PM »
Carpa, I have the same question and the 100 page owners manual says nothing about it.

Offline carpa

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Re: Newbie question regarding mic selection
« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2010, 05:46:39 PM »
Same for me. The manual says nothing. Perhaps somebody knows how these little machines work...

Maybe the limiter works in both mic-in and audio-in modes, with the only difference of 20db or so in accepting the signal.  This could make sense when transferring music from another device (why transferring music THIS way  is another question....) like a cd player or so, which is not expected to have a variable output.

The other possibility is that audio-in is a true line input and the limiter is not activated in this mode...I really don't know.  Maybe droppig a line at Sony's support would produce some result?

Offline beatkilla

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Re: Newbie question regarding mic selection
« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2010, 06:12:14 PM »
Check the yard sale from a week or so ago,i have a minidisc recorder with 2 mics ,in your budget.a great deal i have made verv good recordings with both mics .ecm 719 for far away and csb omnis stack taping metal shows they have -20db attenuator.

 

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