Become a Site Supporter and Never see Ads again!

Author Topic: Baffles for R-09 built-in mics & 4060 boundrisphere contraption  (Read 23916 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • Trade Count: (16)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 15700
  • Gender: Male
  • "Better to love music than respect it" ~Stravinsky
Re: Baffles for R-09 built-in mics & 4060 boundrisphere contraption
« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2006, 09:29:06 AM »
Wow. Thats pretty cool stuff and nice handiwork. +T indeed.
Thank you for explaining everything as you went and the excellent photo documentation.I hope you are as satisfied with the recorded results as you should be with the actual design.

Thanks for the kind words.  I'm quite satisfied. Works excellent as a high priced dictaphone ;).  I've only gotten one opportunity so far to use it in the center of a circle of musicians but the results were quite promising.

I'm an old analog guy getting up to speed on digital editing.  Once I figure out enough of either Audacity or the CEPdemo I'll post a link to some samples.  May take me a little while though, thanks for your patience.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline rowjimmy

  • Trade Count: (4)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 2172
  • Gender: Male
  • rowjimmy.com
    • Row Knows
Re: Baffles for R-09 built-in mics & 4060 boundrisphere contraption
« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2006, 04:10:07 PM »
I'm quite satisfied. Works excellent as a high priced dictaphone ;)

Just this morning a friend was telling me he wanted a recorder, like a dictaphone but digital for recording ambient sounds and whatnot to use as samples...
First thing that came to mind was the r-09.
@rowj | Host of The Brokedown Podcast
Superlux SMK-H8K/H/U > KindKables Black Stealths > Busman T-Mod FR2LE

Offline BayTaynt3d

  • Trade Count: (4)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1816
  • Gender: Male
  • Live from San Francisco
    • BayTaper.com
Re: Baffles for R-09 built-in mics & 4060 boundrisphere contraption
« Reply #17 on: August 24, 2006, 05:25:13 PM »
go to the 'Reply" window at the bottom of every page. Then click Additional Options. In Additional Options, you'll find an "Attach:" box, with a Browse feature. You can post 6 pictures per post, of pics that are less than 512kb ea..
I like to resize to about 650x488 for a picture that is about this size:

Moke: Is that mount only for DPA's, cause that's tight! I'd like something like that mini XY mount for my 943s!!!
BayTaper.com | One Man’s Multimedia Journey Through the San Francisco Jazz & Creative Music Scene

Offline F.O.Bean

  • Team Schoeps Tapir that
  • Trade Count: (126)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 40690
  • Gender: Male
  • Taperus Maximus
    • MediaFire Recordings
Re: Baffles for R-09 built-in mics & 4060 boundrisphere contraption
« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2008, 04:34:13 AM »
GREAT WORK brotha ;D

Do you have any pics of the back of the MMA6k tho ??? Im curious how you take the 1/8" out to the R-9 :) I couldnt tell from any of your pics!
Schoeps MK 4V & MK 41V ->
Schoeps 250|0 KCY's (x2) ->
Naiant +60v|Low Noise PFA's (x2) ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's (x3) ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/diskobean
http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Bean420
http://bt.etree.org/mytorrents.php
http://www.mediafire.com/folder/j9eu80jpuaubz/Recordings

Offline Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • Trade Count: (16)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 15700
  • Gender: Male
  • "Better to love music than respect it" ~Stravinsky
Re: Baffles for R-09 built-in mics & 4060 boundrisphere contraption
« Reply #19 on: September 14, 2008, 11:52:03 AM »
Hey Bean, I use a right angle 3.5mm stereo cable (both ends), so the cable doesn't stick out the back of the MMA6000, so stress on the R-09 jack is reduced and so nothing protrudes too far from either one.  Finding the correct Rt angle jack for the MMA6000 is the trick since the output jack is located in that recess on the back.  You either need one that is 'tall' enough so that it doesn't make the turn until it clears the recess, or one that is small enough so the entire body of the jack fits within the recess.

Moke went the DIY route and made a custom epoxy plug for his that fills the whole recess on the back of the preamp.

I use inexpensive SP-SPSC-7 cables from Sound Pro's that have the smallest molded on connector I've found.  They fit completely within the back recess on the MMA6000 and have less leverage stress on the R-09 jack than any other connector that is longer. I've never had one fail. They work great. [edit- not shown in the photo, but I put a strip of 2" gaff tape over the back to make sure there is no chance of it coming loose]

« Last Edit: September 14, 2008, 11:57:59 AM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline cybergaloot

  • Trade Count: (7)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 4079
  • Gender: Male
  • Poohbah!
Re: Baffles for R-09 built-in mics & 4060 boundrisphere contraption
« Reply #20 on: September 14, 2008, 12:01:49 PM »
Large sphere boundary-
I've planned on building a little J-disc, and have also wanted to experiment with spherical baffles, so I bought a couple 7" Nerf-like close-cell [edit- they're actually open cell with an exterior skin] foam balls when I picked up the small green balls.  7" is about the diameter of the Schoeps KFM 360, my head, equals ORTF spacing and is a generally lucky number so that's the ball diameter I went with.  I plan on trying one of the balls with the mics mounted flush on opposite sides, either just pushed into slots cut into the foam ball or by cutting the ball flat on opposite sides the same diameter as the boundary mounts, so that the mounts, when attached, would complete the sphere with the capsule openings pointing out on opposite sides.  Then either hang the ball or mount it on a mic stand.  The surface of the sphere should provide a smooth, curved diffractive surface that acts to baffle high and mid frequencies in a smoothly progressive way across the sound stage.  Could work nicely in the center of a circle of musicians.



Here's my poor man's version of this using Chris Church's test pair of CA-CAFS-omni's and a 7" foam ball from Walmart
(not the mics on top are a second rig, the CAFS-omni you can see is that small spot on the side of the ball)
It worked pretty good to my ears.
--
Walter

Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects. Will Rogers

this>that>the other

Offline Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • Trade Count: (16)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 15700
  • Gender: Male
  • "Better to love music than respect it" ~Stravinsky
Re: Baffles for R-09 built-in mics & 4060 boundrisphere contraption
« Reply #21 on: September 14, 2008, 12:10:45 PM »
Bean,
I've always used the SP cables mentioned above, but you got me wondering so I tried a Neutrik right angle 3.5mm jack. I always suspected the Neutrik would be too long and not tall enough before the turn to fit in there, but it does just barely.  It just fits as long as the body of the connector is parallel to the preamp housing, but will not seat properly if at an angle (see 3rd pic).  It might not work with a thicker cable - the one in the photos has two thin 4060 cables so the flexible strain relief portion is not very 'fat'.

The bottom photo is a comparison of the Sound Pro's molded RA jack with the Neutrik modular jack in a CA-Ugly.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • Trade Count: (16)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 15700
  • Gender: Male
  • "Better to love music than respect it" ~Stravinsky
Re: Baffles for R-09 built-in mics & 4060 boundrisphere contraption
« Reply #22 on: September 14, 2008, 12:33:00 PM »
cybergaloot,
A few thoughts on the sphere baffle-

Is your ball skinned [edit- I meant to say un-skinned] open cell foam?  I looked at a few of those, held them up to my ear and they didn't seem to block much sound.  They seemed more like a big windscreen.  I suspect that type ball is acting more just to space the mics than actually creating a baffle effect.  I choose the Nerf ball because it was denser and skinned, but I'd like to try a harder surface like a wooden ball or a bowling ball.  Maybe your results with a less dense ball are better than mine because it's not baffling the sound as much and is more like A-B. Which leads me to the next thought..

Using the 4060's flush in the side of the sphere was the only time I've ever preferred the high boost grids on the miniature DPAs.  The boost is too extreme and peaky in any other situation for nature or music recording to my ear but was necessary in this case.  I notice that Schoeps has eq built into their sphere mics which I suspect is a high end 'diffuse field type' boost.

I didn't care too much for the ball for typical music recording at a distance, so I didn't pursue it farther, but the half sphere thing worked well the few times I used it in a circle of pickers so I still think it could work well in that situation.  I think I'd just use a jecklin disc for that though.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2008, 01:53:48 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline cybergaloot

  • Trade Count: (7)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 4079
  • Gender: Male
  • Poohbah!
Re: Baffles for R-09 built-in mics & 4060 boundrisphere contraption
« Reply #23 on: September 14, 2008, 01:08:02 PM »
cybergaloot,
A few thoughts on the sphere baffle-

Is your ball skinned open cell foam?

Cell foam, I couldn't find a foam ball with a skin at the time. I have read that its better to use one with the skin though.

  I looked at a few of those, held them up to my ear and they didn't seem to block much sound.  They seemed more like a big windscreen.  I suspect that type ball is acting more just to space the mics than actually creating a baffle effect.  I choose the Nerf ball because it was denser and skinned, but I'd like to try a harder surface like a wooden ball or a bowling ball.  Maybe your results with a less dense ball are better than mine because it's not baffling the sound as much and is more like A-B. Which leads me to the next thought..

I can't say for sure but that's a lot of foam. Isn't the idea to duplicate the human head? We aren't made out of wood or plastic but maybe inserting something hard inside to duplicate bone might work. Of course our skin isn't like foam either. Maybe a latex rubber coating?

I didn't care too much for the ball for typical music recording at a distance, so I didn't pursue it farther, but the half sphere thing worked well the few times I used it in a circle of pickers so I still think it could work well in that situation.  I think I'd just use a jecklin disc for that though.

It was an experiment on my part that I ran twice and haven't repeated. I was trying to figure out a way to test the CAFS-omni's without actually wearing them. Also since they were omni's I wanted to get them up and away from the yacking bar patrons. Nice mics for the $$$ BTW, about $200 a pair. Very tiny. I don't do much, uh, low-profile recording so they aren't at the top of my "need to buy" list but I'd like to have a pair in the arsenal for those special moments. Chris is selling them in combo with his CA-UGLY pre for $299.00 per set. See: http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,107672.75.html

Here's a sample: http://home.comcast.net/~cybergaloot/LoveLight.flac
Band: Biscuit Miller & The Mix @ the Bradfordville Blues Club
CA-CAFS-omni's>CA-9000 pre>Zoom H2 (line in)
Mics in foam ball on stand attached to bar, about 9' up total, 25' back from the stage DFC
Note that the room acoustics and PA aren't top notch by any means.
--
Walter

Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects. Will Rogers

this>that>the other

Offline Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • Trade Count: (16)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 15700
  • Gender: Male
  • "Better to love music than respect it" ~Stravinsky
Re: Baffles for R-09 built-in mics & 4060 boundrisphere contraption
« Reply #24 on: September 14, 2008, 02:11:24 PM »
I can't say for sure but that's a lot of foam. Isn't the idea to duplicate the human head? We aren't made out of wood or plastic but maybe inserting something hard inside to duplicate bone might work. Of course our skin isn't like foam either. Maybe a latex rubber coating?
I like a baffle to be inert, neutral, as an attenuator between close-to-coincident omni's.

I think it depends on what you're trying to do.  A dummy-head/HRTF type baffle tries to emulate the human head in shape, density, resonance and reflectivity.  Guysonic's baffles are made of Sorbathane I think, which is a soft polyurethane material used for shock absorbing applications that supposedly is pretty close to the density and sound reflectivity of water-dense human tissue.  I'd guess the Neumann head, the Head Acoustics head, the old Sennheiser head and the Achen dummy heads use something similar. I got some Sorbathane samples at work recently recently for another application and it's cool stuff but pricey.

For stereo sphere mics like the Schoeps KFM-6 & KFM-360 spheres, the T.H.E. BS-3D hard wooden sphere or the original 50's Neumann (or was is Sennheiser ?) aluminum sphere, the idea is quite a bit different as they are not trying to emulate a human head.  The idea in that case is to have a hard, evenly curved surface for the sound to diffract smoothly around (like turning a mixer pan-pot).  They are using the sphere shape to avoid the irregularities of human head geometry and are using the boundary effect of the hard surface with the mic capsules flush to the surface (purposefully creating a reflective surface) vs using the material of the head or baffle to absorb the reflected sound.  They use mics with the same amount of high frequency boost on-axis (90 degrees to the side) as the sphere attenuates those frequencies for sounds arriving from the opposite side of the sphere.  Supposedly the combination of both mics then sum evenly for sounds directly ahead.

For a Jecklin disk I think you'd want to have an even, broad spectrum absorber like Moke says, since the mics are positioned a short distance away from the baffle and you just want the acoustic shadow effect and zero reflection off the surface. The only thing I differ with Moke about is that I like the omnis spaced farther apart if possible.  The problem is with more mic spacing is that you then need a bigger baffle.  I built a bigger one but have never had the cajones to fly it.

With smaller baffles you have to keep the mics close to the baffle to get enough acoustic shadowing, but smaller baffles are more useful in most cases because you can actually use them.

Jorg Jecklin himself eventually settled on a bit larger disk with more mic spacing than in his original description with a disk of 36cm and mic spacing of 35mm - maybe I have that backwards? seems pretty exacting in either case with a 1cm difference?!  I met Ray Kimber last spring and asked him a bunch of questions about his gigantic Iso-Mic monster Jecklin disk derivative that is as big as my living room and allows the mics to be spaced quite far apart but he was a bit tight lipped at the time.  I've wanted to play with using two disk baffles so that I could keep each mic closer to the disk surface and keep the baffles small, yet space the mics farther apart.  I could also mess with angling the baffles in that case.  Still not very low profile though so I haven't pursued it. More thoughts on baffle size here.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2008, 04:20:15 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline digifish_music

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1016
    • digifish music
Re: Baffles for R-09 built-in mics & 4060 boundrisphere contraption
« Reply #25 on: September 14, 2008, 09:20:34 PM »
Another approach is to use a reflective baffle with the mic hard-up against the surface to create a boundary effect. Works for me :)



Click here to hear the recording @ freesound

But more seriously (I am sure many of you have come across this page)...

http://www.uwm.edu/~type/audio-reports/BoundaryMicExperiments/BoundaryMicsStudy/BoundaryMicsStudy.htm

digifish
« Last Edit: September 15, 2008, 06:42:38 AM by digifish_music »
- What's this knob do?

Offline cybergaloot

  • Trade Count: (7)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 4079
  • Gender: Male
  • Poohbah!
Re: Baffles for R-09 built-in mics & 4060 boundrisphere contraption
« Reply #26 on: September 14, 2008, 09:56:07 PM »

But more seriously (I am sure many of you have come across this page)...

http://www.uwm.edu/~type/audio-reports/BoundaryMicExperiments/BoundaryMicsStudy/BoundaryMicsStudy.htm


Lot's to read and absorb. This never ends, does it?
--
Walter

Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects. Will Rogers

this>that>the other

Offline digifish_music

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1016
    • digifish music
Re: Baffles for R-09 built-in mics & 4060 boundrisphere contraption
« Reply #27 on: September 14, 2008, 10:22:02 PM »

But more seriously (I am sure many of you have come across this page)...

http://www.uwm.edu/~type/audio-reports/BoundaryMicExperiments/BoundaryMicsStudy/BoundaryMicsStudy.htm


Lot's to read and absorb. This never ends, does it?

Indeed, in particular, I was experimenting, albeit cheaply :) with ideas I saw at Curt Olsen's site...

http://www.trackseventeen.com/soundscapes/mic_rigs.html

It was the comment about the need for non-reflective baffles that made me sit up, reflective ones can be of some use too. From my experience with the cardboard box (which was impressive) I am planning to move up-stream as I have an dimensionally-accurate (50th percentile) head-form that I want to use as a baffle and compare that to a block of wood/box, it's made of a composite fiber material and is about 1.5 cm thick, and weighs ~2 kg, so it's meaty, non-resonant and reflective.



digifish
« Last Edit: September 14, 2008, 10:42:00 PM by digifish_music »
- What's this knob do?

Offline Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • Trade Count: (16)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 15700
  • Gender: Male
  • "Better to love music than respect it" ~Stravinsky
Re: Baffles for R-09 built-in mics & 4060 boundrisphere contraption
« Reply #28 on: September 15, 2008, 10:05:02 AM »
Haunting eyes!

I was looking for photos of Hinrich Peters' Clara microphone that was made from plexiglass and looked like the prow of a ship.  It had a DPA omni capsule mounted flush to either side.  Thanks for the links.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline flipp

  • resident curmudgeon
  • Trade Count: (17)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 4285
Re: Baffles for R-09 built-in mics & 4060 boundrisphere contraption
« Reply #29 on: July 06, 2010, 07:46:46 PM »
marking for reference

 

RSS | Mobile
Page created in 0.093 seconds with 40 queries.
© 2002-2024 Taperssection.com
Powered by SMF