Topic: Levels / Decibels Question

[echo1434]

I was recording a concert using a recorder with a line input level of 0 dB and mics with a maximum SPL of 144 dB... I was running my input levels at about 95% max and I was right at the threshold of clipping.

Does this mean that the concert was approximately 140 dB? It surely was very loud, but am I making an overly convenient calculation here?

[gratefulphish]

Apples and oranges.  The SPL is the limit that the mic can deal with, without distortion.  In the digital realm, you clip at 0 db.  If the concert was 140 db, you would have blood gushing out of your ears.

[echo1434]

Apples and oranges.  The SPL is the limit that the mic can deal with, without distortion.  In the digital realm, you clip at 0 db.  If the concert was 140 db, you would have blood gushing out of your ears.

Ok, I had doubts about my reasoning here. Thanks for clearing it up.

[Gizby]

What's the usual high for a concert, 110dB?

[echo1434]

What's the usual high for a concert, 110dB?

It varies. I think some bands play a lot louder than this.

[Church-Audio]

What's the usual high for a concert, 110dB?

Concerts in a club can be 100 to 115 db. In a big stadium 100 to 112 db. Most sound engineers dont want to mix over 110 because they know they will not be able to mix for long at sustained levels of 110. The reason why clubs tend to be louder is the room is smaller the PA is often times too big for the room and the sound engineer often times started out as a DJ.

Chris

[echo1434]

I guess my perceptions of levels were a bit off then. Take for example DPA 4060 vs. 4061. From what I've read, the max SPLs are 134 and 144, respectively. Even some people on here will say it's best to have the 4061s for the headroom. But if levels typically aren't even approaching 130, then what's the point of 4061s?

P.S. I have 4061s and am very happy with them, but is there really an advantage over 4060s in certain situations?

[bugg100]

What's the usual high for a concert, 110dB?

Concerts in a club can be 100 to 115 db. In a big stadium 100 to 112 db. Most sound engineers dont want to mix over 110 because they know they will not be able to mix for long at sustained levels of 110. The reason why clubs tend to be louder is the room is smaller the PA is often times too big for the room and the sound engineer often times started out as a DJ.

Chris

Never underestimate the power of too much stage volume in a small club also.  Soundman is along for the ride at that point.

[Church-Audio]

What's the usual high for a concert, 110dB?

Concerts in a club can be 100 to 115 db. In a big stadium 100 to 112 db. Most sound engineers dont want to mix over 110 because they know they will not be able to mix for long at sustained levels of 110. The reason why clubs tend to be louder is the room is smaller the PA is often times too big for the room and the sound engineer often times started out as a DJ.

Chris

Never underestimate the power of too much stage volume in a small club also.  Soundman is along for the ride at that point.

This is true... I have a love hate relationship with the 'MARSHAL STACK" I was a club soundman for years then I whent on to do touring. Your right sometimes the stage volume in a small club is much louder then the PA it self and there is no way for the soundman to deal with it except ask the band to be professional but that only happens every once in a while, when they actually listen to the sound man.

Chris

[it-goes-to-eleven]

My math and results suggest dino jr will overload mics in some situations.. Mid floor levels suggest peaks around 132dB.

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,85223.msg1135767.html#msg1135767

[Church-Audio]

My math and results suggest dino jr will overload mics in some situations.. Mid floor levels suggest peaks around 132dB.

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,85223.msg1135767.html#msg1135767

As a guitar player my self. I often laugh at these guys with 50 amps on stage... I mean give me a break you dont see Clapton with 50 amps he has a pair of matched amps, one is a backup, and a Lesley for a effect.. But the rest is fingers and talent..

[anodyne33]

I guess my perceptions of levels were a bit off then. Take for example DPA 4060 vs. 4061. From what I've read, the max SPLs are 134 and 144, respectively. Even some people on here will say it's best to have the 4061s for the headroom. But if levels typically aren't even approaching 130, then what's the point of 4061s?

P.S. I have 4061s and am very happy with them, but is there really an advantage over 4060s in certain situations?

Microphones aren't designed to record ambient concerts. Some are designed to be stuffed in the grill of a screaming 4x12 Mesa cab in an iso booth at painful volumes.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

As a guitar player my self. I often laugh at these guys with 50 amps on stage... I mean give me a break you dont see Clapton with 50 amps he has a pair of matched amps, one is a backup, and a Lesley for a effect.. But the rest is fingers and talent..

Laugh all you want but the sound coming out of J's on stage setup is fantastic and I can't think of any better.  Four different head units, all mic'd separately for effects.  The foreground amps are the opener's rig. 

A lot of the amps you see on stage for big acts these days are all show & no go because the amps are turned down too far to hear.  Jeff Beck was that way last year.

[Church-Audio]

As a guitar player my self. I often laugh at these guys with 50 amps on stage... I mean give me a break you dont see Clapton with 50 amps he has a pair of matched amps, one is a backup, and a Lesley for a effect.. But the rest is fingers and talent..

Laugh all you want but the sound coming out of J's on stage setup is fantastic and I can't think of any better.  Four different head units, all mic'd separately for effects.  The foreground amps are the opener's rig. 

A lot of the amps you see on stage for big acts these days are all show & no go because the amps are turned down too far to hear.  Jeff Beck was that way last year.

 

[ellaguru]

My math and results suggest dino jr will overload mics in some situations.. Mid floor levels suggest peaks around 132dB.

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,85223.msg1135767.html#msg1135767

As a guitar player my self. I often laugh at these guys with 50 amps on stage... I mean give me a break you dont see Clapton with 50 amps he has a pair of matched amps, one is a backup, and a Lesley for a effect.. But the rest is fingers and talent..

as a guitar player myself, i cant think of a player more inspiring to me than j. mascis....i almost fell asleep at the last clapton concert i attended..

^^not trying to start a pissing match...its all good!

[echo1434]

as a guitar player myself, i cant think of a player more inspiring to me than j. mascis....i almost fell asleep at the last clapton concert i attended..

[prof_peabody]

As a guitar player my self. I often laugh at these guys with 50 amps on stage... I mean give me a break you dont see Clapton with 50 amps he has a pair of matched amps, one is a backup, and a Lesley for a effect.. But the rest is fingers and talent..

Chris-

You must have seen Gordie (Grady) Johnson play at some point up there.  He puts up a serious stack and has a lot skill.  I've heard so many distorted recordings from the mega SPLs!  If I had my way...

[ellaguru]

saw big sugar many times as well.....unreal spl's with just a couple marshalls>p.a. stack....

[live2496]

From Wikipedia...
The Who's live performances were traditionally extremely loud. For most of the 1970s and 1980s they were listed in the Guinness Book of World Records as the loudest Rock band in the world, measured at 130 decibels, though other bands, notably Deep Purple have since taken over that dubious honour. Daltrey has hearing problems as a result, and Townshend's later partial deafness and tinnitus is well known; popular legends hold that the members of the band suffered permanent hearing loss from their loud concerts, or that Townshend's right ear was damaged as a result of being too close to the drum kit when Moon detonated an oversized concussion bomb in it at the conclusion of a performance on the Smothers Brothers Comedy Hour in 1967. Townshend, however, maintains that the true cause was listening to music at high volume through headphones in the recording studio.

[prof_peabody]

As a guitar player my self. I often laugh at these guys with 50 amps on stage... I mean give me a break you dont see Clapton with 50 amps he has a pair of matched amps, one is a backup, and a Lesley for a effect.. But the rest is fingers and talent..

Chris-

You must have seen Gordie (Grady) Johnson play at some point up there.  He puts up a serious stack and has a lot skill.  I've heard so many distorted recordings from the mega SPLs!  If I had my way...

I actually worked with Big Sugar. Yes I know Gordie quite well.. He actually used a Garnet preamp into a SVT bass head... For power.. In some cases he was louder then the PA... But it was a good loud.. In the early days it was just a fender super reverb amp..

Chris

Reminds me... I need to head up to Austin to catch Grady again...

[rokpunk]

my favorite new toy...
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?A=details&kw=PHPAA3&is=REG&Q=&O=productlist&sku=398993




i mostly mix monitors (all my engineers prefer to mix FOH...i prefer to do monitors so i can stay out of the crowd and have some space of my own), and usually for a rock band the SLP on stage is somewhere around 112db-115db. needless to say, once the monitor mix is up and the band is happy, in go my ear plugsl.

[Church-Audio]

As a guitar player my self. I often laugh at these guys with 50 amps on stage... I mean give me a break you dont see Clapton with 50 amps he has a pair of matched amps, one is a backup, and a Lesley for a effect.. But the rest is fingers and talent..

Chris-

You must have seen Gordie (Grady) Johnson play at some point up there.  He puts up a serious stack and has a lot skill.  I've heard so many distorted recordings from the mega SPLs!  If I had my way...

I actually worked with Big Sugar. Yes I know Gordie quite well.. He actually used a Garnet preamp into a SVT bass head... For power.. In some cases he was louder then the PA... But it was a good loud.. In the early days it was just a fender super reverb amp..

Chris

Reminds me... I need to head up to Austin to catch Grady again...

I just realized were not talking about the same person lol...

[prof_peabody]

As a guitar player my self. I often laugh at these guys with 50 amps on stage... I mean give me a break you dont see Clapton with 50 amps he has a pair of matched amps, one is a backup, and a Lesley for a effect.. But the rest is fingers and talent..

Chris-

You must have seen Gordie (Grady) Johnson play at some point up there.  He puts up a serious stack and has a lot skill.  I've heard so many distorted recordings from the mega SPLs!  If I had my way...

I actually worked with Big Sugar. Yes I know Gordie quite well.. He actually used a Garnet preamp into a SVT bass head... For power.. In some cases he was louder then the PA... But it was a good loud.. In the early days it was just a fender super reverb amp..

Chris

Reminds me... I need to head up to Austin to catch Grady again...

I just realized were not talking about the same person lol...

Yeah we are.  Gordie lives in Austin now and goes by the name Grady (also the name of his band down here).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grady_%28band%29

From the wikipedia Big Sugar article:

The band broke up in 2004, after, according to the band's website, Johnson became frustrated with Canadian radio programmers who claimed his single "All Hell for a Basement" was "too Canadian" (the song references the province of Alberta). Johnson, a staunch nationalist, was disgusted and angry and left Canada to pursue music in a more "open, welcoming" environment. The newly re-named "Grady" Johnson can now be found in the Austin, Texas-based band Grady.

[Church-Audio]

As a guitar player my self. I often laugh at these guys with 50 amps on stage... I mean give me a break you dont see Clapton with 50 amps he has a pair of matched amps, one is a backup, and a Lesley for a effect.. But the rest is fingers and talent..

Chris-

You must have seen Gordie (Grady) Johnson play at some point up there.  He puts up a serious stack and has a lot skill.  I've heard so many distorted recordings from the mega SPLs!  If I had my way...

I actually worked with Big Sugar. Yes I know Gordie quite well.. He actually used a Garnet preamp into a SVT bass head... For power.. In some cases he was louder then the PA... But it was a good loud.. In the early days it was just a fender super reverb amp..

Chris

Reminds me... I need to head up to Austin to catch Grady again...

I just realized were not talking about the same person lol...

Yeah we are.  Gordie lives in Austin now and goes by the name Grady (also the name of his band down here).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grady_%28band%29

From the wikipedia Big Sugar article:

The band broke up in 2004, after, according to the band's website, Johnson became frustrated with Canadian radio programmers who claimed his single "All Hell for a Basement" was "too Canadian" (the song references the province of Alberta). Johnson, a staunch nationalist, was disgusted and angry and left Canada to pursue music in a more "open, welcoming" environment. The newly re-named "Grady" Johnson can now be found in the Austin, Texas-based band Grady.

That's funny I first saw the picture I did not recognize him I know Ben too as it turns out.. He was the sound man for Colin James.. And many others. I heard he was a good bass player.. Now that I look at the picture I can see that its the same guy...

[anodyne33]

i mostly mix monitors (all my engineers prefer to mix FOH...i prefer to do monitors so i can stay out of the crowd and have some space of my own), and usually for a rock band the SLP on stage is somewhere around 112db-115db. needless to say, once the monitor mix is up and the band is happy, in go my ear plugsl.

When your doing monitors do you typically have a wedge at the console or do you use phones to solo individual mixes?

[Church-Audio]

i mostly mix monitors (all my engineers prefer to mix FOH...i prefer to do monitors so i can stay out of the crowd and have some space of my own), and usually for a rock band the SLP on stage is somewhere around 112db-115db. needless to say, once the monitor mix is up and the band is happy, in go my ear plugsl.

When your doing monitors do you typically have a wedge at the console or do you use phones to solo individual mixes?

When I am doing monitors I have to have a listen wedge and I make sure that all the monitor eq's are inserted in the aux groups. So when I PFL a group I can hear the eq.. I sometimes have a pair of listen wedges if the whole band is "doubled up" if I am doing a combination of inear/wedges, then I have both a listen wedge and a pair of inear's exactly like what the band is wearing.. I have my own e5's with molds. But if I am on tour with an artist that has something different I get the sound company to provide it. I then use the headphone outputs on the transmitters to listen to the mixes.

I think doing monitors with out a proper listen wedge is pretty much useless. Even with a listen wedge its not going to be quite the same as the on stage mix but it should be very close. I also get off my ass during sound check and walk around on stage and make sure the guys are happy.. I also make sure that things are in the wedges before the band even hits the stage.. That way they dont have freak out when they cant hear them selves during sound check. There is nothing worse then a band that is weirded out before the day even starts, they will ride your ass all night long.. If you hit the ground running and have all your vocals in the vocal wedges before the band starts doing anything they will feel more secure in knowing that you have your shit together. Monitors are 5% talent 95% physiological make the band feel comfortable you will have an easy night.. Make them feel like your a knob and they will make your life a living hell.. We have all been there..

Chris

[nic]

Apples and oranges.  The SPL is the limit that the mic can deal with, without distortion.  In the digital realm, you clip at 0 db.  If the concert was 140 db, you would have blood gushing out of your ears.

unfortunately, tell that to the rental soundman at the MMW/Project Logic show at JMU from about 4-5 years ago.
you know its bad when people are running up to FOH with their hands over the ears in pain and the decible meter at FOH registering 140+ and the soundman was f-ing clueless about it.