Topic: Sony PCM-M10 vs Edirol R-09HR

[Cheesecadet]

So after perusing many pages of data, graphs, opinions...I am curios if there are folks out there that have used both recorders.

I am primarily interested in running my DPA 4061's > CA-9100 > Recorder???

Anyone in the know compare these two recorders in relation to the mics and preamp listed above?

Also, has anyone heard of anything new on the horizon...next few months?

Curious still...

[rastasean]

Don't got those mics but I do mics > 9100 > 09HR and don't have any issues with it.

I think you're either a sony fanboy or an Edirol fanboy. Both work well and do well. get both and return your least favorite.

[pafnuzzi]

Had the R-09HR and now run the sony. The sony is a bit smaller and the mic in is even more quiet regarding self noise than the edirol. Beside battery life is the great advantage of the sony!!!!! Won´t be so important for you but also the internal mics are a bit better on the sony  and you have internal memory of 4GB...

I would recommend the sony even if the edi was a very good recorder too.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

I'm not aware that anyone has shared a good m10 comp m10 that involves a high quality external pre-amp and complex source.

At this point the r09 and r09hr are very well understood.  I don't think the m10 has been "shaken down" that well yet.

[OOK]

I'm not aware that anyone has shared a good m10 comp m10 that involves a high quality external pre-amp and complex source.

At this point the r09 and r09hr are very well understood.  I don't think the m10 has been "shaken down" that well yet.

agreed..... The sony seems promising..... as well as the new tascam stuff... competion will only make the products better and possibly cheaper......

OOK

[swordfish]

Got to say that I run DPA 4061 --CA 9100 - Edirol R09-HR.  The Edirol set to 40(zero gain is what I read in the forum) and looked the CA 9100 set to + 20 DB and I am adjusting  the 9100 in the beginning of the recording...Most of the times you know either the venue or the band and you are able to preset your recording equipment.

I had a Korg MR 1 before and I am realy happy with the Edirol...Since it is very reliable.  When I leave the venue in 99% percent of the time I know I have a recording to take home...with the Korg I think I had about 50% of a chance ...

I had the Korg sent to the KorG maintenance and explained my problems the Korg killing my battery boxes and static and noise etc...

Korg couldn't find athing and the next recording showed the same static...ditched it..

So for now I am happy with the gear...showing interest in the naiant battery box...but I think that might to hard to handle with stealth recordings and toggle switches...

My 2 Cents

[johnw]

I owned an R09HR and D50 but sold both and now have an M10. I didn't like the R09HR, thought the D50 was pretty good but a little big and think the M10 is the best recorder of its size on the market currently. That is based more on size and features than sound or scientific testing.

With the M10, I thought the metering is better than the R09HR and all lights can be turned off for stealth just like the R09HR. It is slimmer than the R09HR which makes it easier to get into shows and kind of looks like a cell phone if you act like your talking into it. It has built in memory but also takes microSD cards or Memory Sticks. No noise if you have to adjust gain (which is a big flaw with the R09HR), but I keep it at unity (6) anyway. Battery life is incredible - like 24 hours at 24/48 going line in. It has 5 seconds of pre-record like the D50. The hold button is easy to use, but doesn't lock out the gain knob which is the only flaw IMO. As far as sound quality goes, it doesn't sound as good as my 722, but it does fine at loud rock concerts and handles clipping really well without any significant audible distortion. I could care less about the built in mics or preamp since I will never use them.

[Craig T]

I've been using the M10 since 10/31/09 without any problems and am very satisfied with the sound quality and functionality.  At this point I consider it field tested and taper approved.

[Idle Wind]

I just got my M10 from B&H Photo.  Currently $274.00, plus they throw in the Sony case for it - usually $29.99.  no tax no shipping to MA.  looks sweet.  and imo, the gain knob / hold issue isn't going to be a problem, and I'd probably actually prefer it that way.

It'd be nice if the remote at least had a clipping light on it though.

anyone interested in a CF-Modded Rockboxed IRiver cheap?   

[Belexes]

Anyone else besides johnw that had the HR and switched to the M10?

Thinking if it would be good for me to switch or not. Johnw makes some very good points.

[chrise]

The hold button is easy to use, but doesn't lock out the gain knob which is the only flaw IMO.

Hmm, not IMO.  The PCM-M10 gain knob is quite stiff, AND physically protected by the casing.  So I can't see how it could realistically be moved by accident...

Are there other recorders where the hold button locks the gain ?  If so, are they recorders with an inferior "digital gain control" ?  The hold switch on most recorders I've used (including PCM-M10) is purely software, so I don't see how this could easily lock a proper analog gain control, like what you get on the PCM-M10.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

The hold switch on most recorders I've used (including PCM-M10) is purely software, so I don't see how this could easily lock a proper analog gain control, like what you get on the PCM-M10.

It's easy to do - the pot can be switched out of the circuit.

And just because the gain control is a knob does not necessarily mean it is analog.  Ideally the gain control is changing the amount of amplification, not attenuating.  And in terms of digital gain, we may not like the thought of it, but it isn't the end of the world.  The 7xx sounds very good, and digital gain is a part of that topology.  When you turn the gain knob on the 7xx, it displays the amount of gain in dB (does the m10 do that?).  I tend to always run my recorder at the lowest gain possible and add all gain with my pre-amp.  So it is rare that I need to adjust at the recorder.

In some situations I prefer button based gain.  That way I can release the hold, click the gain button some number of clicks, all without removing the recorder from my pocket.  It also lets me set the gain at a specific level.  I can remember running the variable pots on the minime.  It was a pain to take notes like "1:00 o'clock gain".  With the v3, aerco, 7xx and r09, I know exactly how much gain I run.  I like the stepped gain pots on the v3 and aerco.

[chrise]

It's easy to do - the pot can be switched out of the circuit.

Wouldn't switching the pot out of the circuit change the level from whatever you've just selected using the pot ?

When you turn the gain knob on the 7xx, it displays the amount of gain in dB (does the m10 do that?).

No - there's nothing on the display.  If you need to know the absolute value, you have to look at the knob itself (not hugely easy in the dark!)

I'm not using an external pre, and hence it presumably makes sense to have a gain control acting on the analog signal before it hits the built-in pre.

I imagine in expensive units, this gain control could be digitally controlled.  But I fear in some cheap units, the gain into the internal pre may be fixed, with the gain "control" adjusting the signal in the digital domain, after the pre and A/D stages.  Not so good.

Again, I'm talking about using internal pre.  I agree things are different with external pre.

 

[page]

It's easy to do - the pot can be switched out of the circuit.

Wouldn't switching the pot out of the circuit change the level from whatever you've just selected using the pot ?

Depends, is there an end where you can turn it anymore? If so, then the values at a given possition might corelate to a specific value. If it's a free spinning wheel (e.g. you get to max gain and the wheel can keep trying to increase the gain regardless of what happens), then it's unlikely that this mapping occurs and instead the recorder is measuring change in volume requests and not an absolute gain request.

(I don't have one, I'm meerly interested in it is why I read these threads)

edit: realized that you were answering a question, not contradicting a statement. my bad.

[M]

The value from the pot could be stored and the pot could be switched out. 

[chrise]

The value from the pot could be stored and the pot could be switched out.

How exactly ?

This is not software !

I guess you'd need some fancy electronics in the analog signal path, which would likely either degrade the signal, or be expensive.

[M]

This could be accomplished with a microcontroller.

The signal does not need be degraded.

Not complicated at all if that is your thing.

Sony likely concluded that it was too expensive and that is why it was not implemented.  But the controller likely would have cost them much less than $1 a unit.
 

[kleiner Rainer]

Hi all,

if the M10 is built like the D50, the gain pot sets the gain of the mic preamp which is the way I prefer since it gives you a wider range of gain without the risk of clipping. To "fix" the gain would require to switch out the pot and replace it with a specific resistance *for the selected gain*, since the pot is in the signal path.

This means integrated switching ICs to do the switching and a digital pot with its limitations (THD and noise, granularity of resistance, coupling of digital noise into a high gain path). As a designer of analog circuits by profession *I* prefer the solution Sony selected, and I am fully aware of the advantages and disadvantages of the possible solutions.

I am amused about those who throw a microcontroller at every problem in an essentially analog device.

"It is tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail." - Abraham Maslow

Greetings,

Rainer

[it-goes-to-eleven]

I am amused about those who throw a microcontroller at every problem in an essentially analog device.

That is hardly an analog device...  And the 7xx recorders do just fine without putting the gain pots into the signal path

I don't think anyone knows for certain how the pot on the m10 is implemented?  In any case, whenever there is a pot that impacts the signal path, I am concerned about the longevity and when (not usually if) it starts making noise.  That is especially true of small pots.  That is one of the reasons I prefer step based gain controls.  Good pots (and step controls) tend to be expensive.

I'd like to know more about the specific pot that sony uses in the m10.

[kleiner Rainer]

Freelunch,

IIRC the SD7xx is about 10 times the price of the M10, and it is not exactly pocket-sized. But even the 7xx will have some way to change the input level, and this will be in the signal path!

I know of two fundamental ways to handle that:

1) preamp with variable gain into an A/D converter with fixed gain.
This is the preferred solution for devices running with low power supply voltage for the audio stages. I suspect that the M10 uses this approach, since the D50 uses that, too. And as a designer, I also tend to recycle proven circuit blocks. My old Uher Report 4400 reel to reel recorder also uses this approach (it is 6V powered, no DC/DC-converter back then).

2) preamp with fixed or switchable gain followed by an A/D converter with built in PGA (programmable gain amp).
This requires a preamp with a high supply voltage to get the necessary headroom. This is the way how it was done in the Sony TCD-5M, that mic preamp runs at +5V/-7V. The old WM-D6C uses a similar approach, also with a rather high voltage for the mic preamp. The SD 7xx uses a bigger rechargeable battery and has phantom power, so a preamp with high supply voltage should be no problem at all.

The problems if you use solution 2) with low supply voltages can be readily observed on the Zoom H2: there are settings where the preamp clips long before the A/D converter, even when you turn down the gain. It uses an A/D from TI with built-in PGA, that also does AGC, limiter and compressor in the PGA (there is a TI application note covering that). Personally, I do not like the stepped gain of most portable recorders, and I am not alone in that regard.

There are pots that are of good quality, even in the consumer market. I personally would prefer low-noise conductive plastic ones (Vishay), but they are expensive. At least in my old Sony recorders (the above mentioned TCD-5M and WM-D6C), the gain pots still work as new (which is not true for tape heads and drive...). If the PCM M10 develops scratchy pots after 15 to 20 years, I would not complain. I still remember what I paid for the two tape decks (and the Marantz CP430...). Compared to that, the M10 is a real bargain.



Greetings,

Rainer

[Fonky]

With the M10, I thought the metering is better than the R09HR and all lights can be turned off for stealth just like the R09HR. It is slimmer than the R09HR which makes it easier to get into shows and kind of looks like a cell phone if you act like your talking into it. It has built in memory but also takes microSD cards or Memory Sticks. No noise if you have to adjust gain (which is a big flaw with the R09HR), but I keep it at unity (6) anyway. Battery life is incredible - like 24 hours at 24/48 going line in. It has 5 seconds of pre-record like the D50. The hold button is easy to use, but doesn't lock out the gain knob which is the only flaw IMO.

Almost ready to order my R-09hr and I find this. I've been trying to weigh up the pros & cons of the two decks. I didn't know the R-09hr makes a sound when you adjust levels? Also, as far as I can find out, the red recording light flashes on more or less whenever you touch the R-09hr (even if only for a couple of seconds). So it's a 'black tape up' job as I'd be stealthing.

I've  had my mind set on the Edirol for a while but after being advised to take a look at the Sony I'm starting to wonder?

[ashevillain]

I didn't know the R-09hr makes a sound when you adjust levels?

Mine doesn't make noise when the gain is adjusted. Perhaps someone had a faulty unit?

I usually adjust the gain on my preamp but I have done it on the recorder too...never experienced this problem on either the original R-09 or the R-09HR.

[Fonky]

Mine doesn't make noise when the gain is adjusted. Perhaps someone had a faulty unit?

I usually adjust the gain on my preamp but I have done it on the recorder too...never experienced this problem on either the original R-09 or the R-09HR.

Interesting, I thought I'd read about it somewhere else too? So it's just the 'evil red light' and the battery time making me think now.

[Belexes]

I had the HR and went with getting M10. Battery life is amazing and I had read about tests in regards to there being noise when the gain is changed.

[rastasean]

I didn't know the R-09hr makes a sound when you adjust levels?

Mine doesn't make noise when the gain is adjusted. Perhaps someone had a faulty unit?

I usually adjust the gain on my preamp but I have done it on the recorder too...never experienced this problem on either the original R-09 or the R-09HR.

I wasn't a believer of the noise but it is there on mine. It is a VERY VERY faint clicking noise and I really only hear it when listening to it. I honestly consider it nothing to worry about.
Say someone has a UA5 with some nice mics plugged into it and during the first song/intro if you listen closely you can hear the gain on L channel increase and then the R and the L and then the R. Its pretty much the same on the 09hr. Most of the time you would cut the very beginning of a recording off since its not completely necessary...at least I would.
The clicking noise will obviously be more noticeable if you're recording something super quiet.

The best way to prevent this or to minimize this is to set the 09hr input at no higher than 55 and adjust the gain on your pre-amp like the 9100. The 9100 has a lot of gain so don't be afraid to use it. I tend to run mine WAY to conserative but I'm learning to crank it a little higher and I can reduce in post later.

[rastasean]

I had the HR and went with getting M10. Battery life is amazing and I had read about tests in regards to there being noise when the gain is changed.

I can vouch for the AMAZING battery life on the m10.

I used my 09hr to record a band which the set was only 1 1/2 to 1h 45m long and the battery meter on the 09hr has dropped just a little, little bit but compare that the the m10 which I have had on many times adding up to over 2 hours and it has the full battery meter.

[earmonger]

I also like the display and the general feel of the M10 better than the R09 (I haven't had an HR). 

The internal mics are genuinely musical, much better than the R09, even if they don't have full bass response (IIRC, the cutoff is 80Hz), which turned out very helpful when I lost a channel of my stealth mics.

 And the long long long battery life changes the whole recording experience. If you see three bars, or even two bars, you just don't have to worry at all about getting through the show. I did an entire rock festival, 3 x 12-hour days, on a pair of Duracells.

[fmaderjr]

Mine doesn't make noise when the gain is adjusted. Perhaps someone had a faulty unit?

I bet you're mistaken about that unless you've made a test at home specifically looking for the noise. I once posted that my R-09 didn't make such a noise, but someone called me out on it and when I made a more careful test I heard it.

My HR make a horrible noise while being adjusted (the R-09 is not nearly as bad) and others have reported the same thing. That said, not a big proglem for me. I also generally adjust gain with my pre and if I did need to adjust the HR I would do it between songs and edit the noise out.

[relentlesscactus]

Regarding the hold switch, the inability to cut out the gain knob makes me a little nervous in field (bootleg concert) situations, but I'll take your word for it that it is a stiff knob.

However, I have another question, is their a bypass method for the light?  It's not in the manual, but on the Microtrak, you can hit the playback volume control switch and the light comes on in hold mode, while with the Tascam you click the speaker switch.  This allows one to see the screen in the dark without the risk of accidently stopping the recording in a percarious recording situation.  Does anyone have a unit that could try this out?  The Sony looks perfect for me, but without the ability to light the display in the dark (about the only place I record), that is a deal breaker!

--

[fmaderjr]

Regarding the hold switch, the inability to cut out the gain knob makes me a little nervous in field (bootleg concert) situations, but I'll take your word for it that it is a stiff knob.

However, I have another question, is their a bypass method for the light?  It's not in the manual, but on the Microtrak, you can hit the playback volume control switch and the light comes on in hold mode, while with the Tascam you click the speaker switch.  This allows one to see the screen in the dark without the risk of accidently stopping the recording in a percarious recording situation.  Does anyone have a unit that could try this out?  The Sony looks perfect for me, but without the ability to light the display in the dark (about the only place I record), that is a deal breaker!

If backlight is set to always off, there's no bypass. If set to 10 seconds (off in 10 seconds) you can turn it on for 10 seconds by hitting the display button (which is easy to find) and probably a number of other buttons as well (including the volume buttons, but they are hard to find in the dark). Even if on hold, the light will come on when you hit the display button. A flashing hold indicator shows up for a couple seconds before you can check levels, etc. but at least you don't need to  worry about accidentally stopping the recording.

[chrise]

Yep - when "hold" is set, pressing any button fires up the back light.  And you have to wait about 3 seconds whilst the display says "HOLD".

[adrianf74]

I just wanted to say thanks to everybody for some good and valuable information in this thread.  I've still got the original R09 which I bought in February 2008.  I've used it to record about 15, about five or six more off the radio, and as a bit-bucket doing transfers for about 50 shows from MiniDisc at 24/48. 

Because of this thread, I'm now looking to buy one.   I like the idea of a "smaller" recorder when outdoors and the idea of 24/96 is quite nice since I'm still stuck at 24/48 -- not that I'm going to likely notice a difference.

[M]

fwiw, the r09 can do 96kHz

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=127618.msg1690428#msg1690428

[adrianf74]

fwiw, the r09 can do 96kHz

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=127618.msg1690428#msg1690428

Thanks for the head's up.  I didn't even know this (then again, I'm not using a pre-amp yet so using a battery box alone at 24/96 would be less than ideal based on the noise floor of the device).  I'm wondering if anybody's ever done test - such as GuySonic - to confirm any benefit.

[jsfrank]

This thread is perfect for where I am at. Leaning towards retiring the microcrapper. Does the PCM-M10 get powered via usb too?

[adrianf74]

This thread is perfect for where I am at. Leaning towards retiring the microcrapper. Does the PCM-M10 get powered via usb too?

Was thinking that until I learned that I can "hack" my R09 (original model) to get it to do 24/96. At that point, might be better to just keep the thing 'til it dies (and it's not even close right now). 

[willndmb]

This thread is perfect for where I am at. Leaning towards retiring the microcrapper. Does the PCM-M10 get powered via usb too?

no but runs for like 25hrs on 2 aa

[relentlesscactus]

Thanks fmaderjr & chrise for the responses!   What a great forum this is . . .

Since everyone seems helpful, though I am drifting offtopic, I had another question as I am thinking about the Sony:

• Q:  I use a small portable batt-op pre-amp with small, high quality, directional mics and an old fading MicroTrack.  I was sent a different pre-amp from Sound Professionals for a Tascam that I don't like and am sending back.  With the Sony, would I need an external pre-amp for good sound with the mic-in? 

I am asking because the owner's manual says "When a plug in power type microphone is connected, power is automatically supplied to the microphone from the PCM recorder," and there is a thread elsewhere about how so-and-so says he no longer needs to use an external mic pre-amp now that he uses the PCM-M10.  So are these "plug in power type mics", or am I unclear on the concept?  If this is the pre-amp I need internal on the PCM, are these high-quality pre-amps to rival the exterior box supplied by Sound Professionals?

Thank you in advance for the answers!

--relentlesscactus

[Cheesecadet]

Run through your pre and "Line In" into the M10...

[fmaderjr]

• Q:  I use a small portable batt-op pre-amp with small, high quality, directional mics and an old fading MicroTrack.  I was sent a different pre-amp from Sound Professionals for a Tascam that I don't like and am sending back.  With the Sony, would I need an external pre-amp for good sound with the mic-in? 
--relentlesscactus

You usually don't want to use a preamp into mic in (though Chris Church says you can sometimes do it with his pramps if what you are recording is very quiet and you turn off the recorder's plug in power). If you have a good preamp, I would usually follow cheesecadet's recommendation of going preamp into line in.

If you want to go mic in, even though the M10's mic in  provides plug in power, its only a bit over 3 volts I think, as opposed to the 9 volts provided by most battery boxes. For many mics you will need to use a battery box between the mics and the mic in if you want optimal performance from the mics. Even if they seem to work fine without the box, they may distort when the signal gets too loud. CA-14's and DPA 4060's definitely need a box. Illconditioned has reported good results with a number of mics without a box, including CA-11's. So whether you can go mic in without at least a battery box ddepends on your mics.

I generally use a battery box in all cases when not using a preamp just to be safe (an exception would be Sonic Studios DSM mics, which are not designed to be powered by 9 volts, and which can be powered perfectly the the M10's plug in power). A small battery box doesn't take up much room.

[relentlesscactus]

I mis-spoke.  I should have said battery box rather than pre-amp, regarding use with Sony PCM-M10.

So what is the best combination of using/not using battery box; line-in, mic-in; mic power on/off; and gain low/high; in loud and soft situations?

I have a Sound Professionals 12V mini mic power box and CMC-4 directional mics.

Thanks for the advice (so I screw up fewer recordings when I get my new recorder),

--relentlesscactus

[fmaderjr]

Regarding mic power on and off, always turn it off when going mic in with a battery box and on if going mic in without a box. If going line in, the setting is irrelevant.

Your mics are AT-853's. I believe illconditioned has reported good results going mic in with these without a battery box. You can try it both ways and see what you like best. I myself would use the box to be safe, but he is more knowledgeable than I am. However if you did not get the low sensitivity mod, your mics may distort in very loud situations regardless of whether you go mic in (with or without the box) or line in with the box. Everyone agrees you need the mod on these mics for high sound pressure situations.

If going mic in, always set the recorder to low gain for amplified music and high gain for ambient recordings (the built in mics are quite good for this). For acoustic, high gain is probably fine, but I have used low gain to be safe. Someone who has used high gain on acoustic can chime in here. The gain setting is irrelevant if going line in, but you must always use the battery box when going line in or the mics will not receive any power.

[relentlesscactus]

fmaderjr--

Thank you for the informative reply (below).  I received my Sony PCM-M10 yesterday.  So far, I am mightily impressed.  I have a couple of question/clarifications:

Regarding mic power on and off, always turn it off when going mic in with a battery box and on if going mic in without a box. If going line in, the setting is irrelevant.

I take it 'line in' would be for high volume situations?  What happens if you do turn on the mic power along with a battery box?

Your mics are AT-853's. I believe illconditioned has reported good results going mic in with these without a battery box. You can try it both ways and see what you like best. I myself would use the box to be safe, but he is more knowledgeable than I am. However if you did not get the low sensitivity mod, your mics may distort in very loud situations regardless of whether you go mic in (with or without the box) or line in with the box. Everyone agrees you need the mod on these mics for high sound pressure situations.

You mention 'the low sensitivity mod' or 'the mod' for high sound pressure situations.  Could you explain what this 'mod' is?  Where you can get it?  I've used these mics for years with my Microtrak.  The only problems I had were situations with a super-deep sub-woofer that distorted the sound, sometimes even when the peaks were not reached. 

I take it mic in w/o the batter box would be with the mic power then turned on, correct?

If going mic in, always set the recorder to low gain for amplified music and high gain for ambient recordings (the built in mics are quite good for this). For acoustic, high gain is probably fine, but I have used low gain to be safe. Someone who has used high gain on acoustic can chime in here. The gain setting is irrelevant if going line in, but you must always use the battery box when going line in or the mics will not receive any power.

So it is good to use line in for very loud music?

I have my first concert to record Friday, and trying to get as much knowledge as possible so I don't F it up.

One more question.  One person told me to use the limiter function.  That way if it goes over the limit, it gently adjusts the peak to the top level rather than distorts.  The Microtrak rarely distorted on peaks unless super loud.  It sounds like the Sony may be much more accurate, but would therefore distort without the limiter if say a loud snare hit came through unexpectedly.  Do you recommend the limiter?

Thanks in advance,

--relentlesscactus

[fmaderjr]

renlentlesscactus-

Line in is for high volume situations or can be used if you are using an external preamp to provide most of the gain. With the M10 some people have reported that the mic in will also work in high volume situations, but I haven't tried it myself. Others can chime in here.

I can't tell you what happens if you use a battery box mic in with the recorder's plug in power on. Most likely it will still sound OK, but it could cause problems and there is no way it will improve the sound, so don't do it on purpose. If you do it by accident it is likely the recording will still sound fine.

The M10's limiter does not work gently (as is the case with almost all limiters). If you use it, use it only as a safety valve and still set your levels conservatively so the limiter isn't likely to kick in.

The 853 low sensitivity mod was devised by Chris Church to keep the mics themselves from overloading in high volume situations, even if the recorder itself doesn't. The mics can then take very high SPL's, but are about 10-11 db less sensitive (need more gain when recording quieter stuff). Either Chris Church or Sound Professionals can do the mod for you. Also a few of the board members here can do it-one may possibly speak up.



 

[relentlesscactus]

fmaderjr--

I can't tell you what happens if you use a battery box mic in with the recorder's plug in power on. Most likely it will still sound OK, but it could cause problems and there is no way it will improve the sound, so don't do it on purpose. If you do it by accident it is likely the recording will still sound fine.

I am wondering what the difference is between the mic in and line in if the power is off on the mic in . . . if it can be explained simply . . . not important if it's not simple.

The M10's limiter does not work gently (as is the case with almost all limiters). If you use it, use it only as a safety valve and still set your levels conservatively so the limiter isn't likely to kick in.

I guess the main question then is which is less gentle . . . peak distortion without a limiter, or the "non-gentle effect" of a limiter?  Obviously well-set levels are the key, but I'm getting used to a new machine and I hate ruining recordings!  I listen to pretty weird music sometimes, and it could be an acoustic guitar followed by a sonic snare concussion and back again.  With the Microtrack, you could peak pretty severe and it usually sounded OK, I get the idea the Sony is not so forgiving (the Micro also usually had pretty low levels when they should have been normal).


The 853 low sensitivity mod was devised by Chris Church to keep the mics themselves from overloading in high volume situations, even if the recorder itself doesn't. The mics can then take very high SPL's, but are about 10-11 db less sensitive (need more gain when recording quieter stuff). Either Chris Church or Sound Professionals can do the mod for you. Also a few of the board members here can do it-one may possibly speak up.

Wow, I'm still totally interested and totally clueless.  Is "mod" MODual as in a physical device you plug the mics into, or is it a MODification that has to be done TO the mics?  I know Sound Profs, not familiar with Mr. Church -- what is the approx cost of either the modification or module?

Thanks so much for all your help!

--Alan

PS.  I recorded an mp3 on the Sony for 24 hours and the batt marker only went down to two of five marks.  That battery life is real!

[fmaderjr]

I believe if you go mic in with power off you get more gain from the recorder than if you went line in (assuming a battery box is adequately powering the mics. If recording something very loud). With some recorders you have more chance of overloading the recorder's pre when recording something loud mic in, but all reports are that the M10's mic in is very resistant to overload (at low sensitivity).

With a 24 bit recorder, but don't need to worry much about how good the limiter is. You can record aiming for peaks about -12 dB or so and boost noiselessly in post. That way the limiter should never kick in. Do not set your levels too high (peaking at -2 to -4) because if the band suddenly plays louder your levels will go over 0 dB (or would if the limiter were off) and you'll be at the mercy of how the limiter operates. Limiters are really not that important in a 24 bit recorder. Just record at levels that are conservative. 24 bit recordings can be boosted with much less addes noise than 16 bit recording could.

The low sensitivity mod is a 4.7 Ohm resistor placed appropriately in the mic's mini-plug. It is necessary because the 853 were designed by AT to be run on phantom power and distort when converted to run on plug in power and used to record very loud sources. Chris Church invented it but it is likely to be more expensive from him because you have to pay shipping to & from Canada. I'm guessing it would cost $25-$35 plus shipping to have Sound Professionals do it. I'm not saying they do it better, just that they are probably cheaper due to postage.

[mattmiller]

I have both of these units and have decided to keep the M10 and sell the R-09HR (it's in the Yard Sale now).  Obviously, I like the M10 a little better overall, which is why I'm keeping it.  But there are several things that I like better about the R-09HR.

1.  I like the R-09HR's menu system better.  It seems on the M10 that I'm having to click a couple of menus deep to get to a lot of the things I need to get to.
2.  I like the R-09HR's button layout better.  Especially when navigating in the menus, the UP and DOWN buttons are centered on top of (and below, respectively) the ENTER (record) button.  My fingers are much faster with this than on the M10.  I can blindly navigate while looking at the screen.  On the M10, the UP and DOWN keys are staggered, and the ENTER key is somewhere else, which makes it a lot slower to move around in the menus.
3.  I like the rubbery-style grip of the R-09HR.  I'm certainly not going to test it, but it seems like it could absorb a fall from a small height a lot better than the M10.
4.  I like the input level control on the R-09HR better.  With the button controls on the side, I can change the levels with one hand while the device is sitting on a table (or at the SBD, for example).  With the M10, I have to pick it up with one hand and use the other hand to dial the level up or down.  Maybe my fingers are just fat, but I can't get a grip on the dial without picking the whole thing up.  Also, when you change the input level on the R-09HR the display shows you the level as it changes.  On the M10, I have to hold a flashlight on the dial (with my teeth, since both hands are occupied) to be able to see how much I'm adjusting it.
5.  I like the R-09HR's WIRELESS remote WITH input level controls.  The M10 remote is wired and doesn't include input level controls. 

While I'm on that topic -- regarding the noise that some people report when changing levels on the R-09HR -- is that only when adjusting the levels via the buttons on the side?  Is there noise when adjusting the levels via the wireless remote?

That all said, I like not having to change batteries every night with the M10, and I like having the HOLD button on the side, rather than having to flip it over like on the R-09HR.

[fmaderjr]

I like the input level control on the R-09HR better.  With the button controls on the side, I can change the levels with one hand while the device is sitting on a table (or at the SBD, for example).  With the M10, I have to pick it up with one hand and use the other hand to dial the level up or down.  Maybe my fingers are just fat, but I can't get a grip on the dial without picking the whole thing up.  Also, when you change the input level on the R-09HR the display shows you the level as it changes.  On the M10, I have to hold a flashlight on the dial (with my teeth, since both hands are occupied) to be able to see how much I'm adjusting it.

I like the M10's level control much better because it adds no noise to the recording. The HR's contol adds very unpleasant noise, so you have to be sure to change it where it can be edited out, like during applause. During the show I don't really need to see the numbers on the record level adjustment wheel-I just go by the VU meter, so I never even thought about that and I always pick up a machine to change levels, so I never thought about that either.

[mattmiller]

I like the M10's level control much better because it adds no noise to the recording.

I haven't personally witnessed the noise, but I don't doubt that it's there if I were to listen closely enough.  But -- absent of any flaw in the execution of it -- I like the push-button controls on a device this small rather than the tiny dial that I have trouble getting any traction on with my fingers (without picking up the recorder and using two fingers to spin the dial).

[fmaderjr]

It's amazing how different the features that are important to each of us in a given piece of equipment can be, isn't it?

The noise is really obvious if you change levels during the music. If you change levels with a pre it's no problem of course and if you change during applause it's easily edited out even if you hear it. The first time I used my HR I changed levels a number of clicks during a song and couldn't believe the noise it made.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

It's a rare thing when I change levels during music, even when I'm using a silent pre-amp.  It requires a lot less post work to smooth things out when it's done during applause..

I use a pre-amp, and always run my r09 at the same gain.  So even if it made noise when the gain is changed, it would be a non-issue.  The aerco, unlike the v3, makes pretty horrendous noise when changing gain, so changing during the music is just not an option.

I do find the ability to change gain in fixed amounts (stepped or buttons) essential - I need to be able to change gain without exposing the pre or or recorder.

[fmaderjr]

It's a rare thing when I change levels during music, even when I'm using a silent pre-amp.  It requires a lot less post work to smooth things out when it's done during applause..

I do the same thing almost without fail (usually with a pre). That particular time my initial levels were way off and I was afraid of distortion.

[guysonic]

The potential for audible 'zipper noise' reported occurring with Edirol R-09/HR models varies because it's caused by a DC offset voltage being generated inside the Codec IC.   This offset voltage varies with each same part number Codec IC as the manufacturer of the IC, and Edirol seem not specifying what offset range cause audible effects. 

The result is some R-09HR devices do not have this issue, and some more or less do have this noise.  Using line input should avoid this sound altogether.

FWIW most all these small recorders have two mic input gain choices.  For what I know about this dating back to the early 80's portables, ONLY the 'LOW or 20 dB' mic input sensitivity setting is truly a best choice for most all types of important-for-low-distortion audio quality purposes.   The 'HIGH or 0 dB" setting tries way too hard to push the gain of the first mic amp gain reducing both the low bass/high frequency response bandwidth, and audibly increases the distortion.

If needing more gain (not often a requirement if recording in 24 bit) go line in with a good designed external preamplifier to keep recording quality optimized.   I have smaller than smallest deck external preamplifier models offering higher than internal mic amp optimum gain without the mentioned audio quality issues.  See these here: www.sonicstudios.com/access.htm#micamp

Recording in 24 bit as suggested here, even with REC level manual adjustment at maximum eliminates the need for more gain as post edit software allows 24 bit depth masters excellent loudness adjustment at full (audible) quality even if recording level was at or below <-20 dB FS VU.

Choosing the best model for you between M10 and R-09HR depends on personal usage purposes. 
For me, I’d find having both indispensable with the M10 ability to directly power my DSM mics perfectly, and having exceptionally quiet mic input the best model for carrying everywhere.  The M10 running in 24 bit/44.1K or 48K configured as a 2-piece long running system is my choice for most ambient sounds/casual live music recording purposes.  Most often used with my small point & shoot Panasonic Lumix DMC –ZS3 operating in HD video mode for sound and picture adventure documenting as shown below:

Also See: http://www.sonicstudios.com/videomic.htm
The R-09HR is, for me, given more limited use exclusively in 24 bit/88.2K mode not available on the M10, and line-level fed from external PA-3SX or PA-24 preamplifier. R09HR’s mic preamplifier has way more digital noise coloration than M10 unless being fed LINE input by quality preamplifier; See graphs below showing M10 and R-09HR noise.




R-09HR seems to have a little bit more very low frequency bandwidth extension than M10’s line input. 
As such, I use this mic+R-09HR+preamp configuration for occasional more professional music sessions meant for eventual CD/DVD-Audio release benefiting from the higher frequency bandwidth at fully compatible CD 88.2K-to-44.1K-integer conversion rate.

[fmaderjr]

The potential for audible 'zipper noise' reported occurring with Edirol R-09/HR models varies because it's caused by a DC offset voltage being generated inside the Codec IC.   This offset voltage varies with each same part number Codec IC as the manufacturer of the IC, and Edirol seem not specifying what offset range cause audible effects. 

This is great to know. I do appreciate the technical info you contribute here.

The result is some R-09HR devices do not have this issue, and some more or less do have this noise.  Using line input should avoid this sound altogether.

I get horrible noise with mine line in.


If needing more gain (not often a requirement if recording in 24 bit) go line in with a good designed external preamplifier to keep recording quality optimized.   I have smaller than smallest deck external preamplifier models offering higher than internal mic amp optimum gain without the mentioned audio quality issues.  See these here: www.sonicstudios.com/access.htm#micamp

Come on, guy. I'm sure your amps are great for your DSM mics, but you designed them to produce the proper plug in power for DSM's, not the typical mini-mic that requires 5-9 volts of PIP. It seems that a tinybox or ST-9100 would be a far cheaper and better solution for non DSM mics. Wouldn't you need a battery box to power most non DSM mics when using your preamp? And couldn't there be problems using 2 devices providing PIP? Please explain if I'm mistaken.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

R-09HR seems to have a little bit more very low frequency bandwidth extension than M10’s line input. 
As such, I use this mic+R-09HR+preamp configuration for occasional more professional music sessions meant for eventual CD/DVD-Audio release benefiting from the higher frequency bandwidth at fully compatible CD 88.2K-to-44.1K-integer conversion rate.

Interesting... I'd heard that about the D50, and always wondered about the m10.   Is that something you have measured?

[guysonic]

If needing more gain (not often a requirement if recording in 24 bit) go line in with a good designed external preamplifier to keep recording quality optimized.   I have smaller than smallest deck external preamplifier models offering higher than internal mic amp optimum gain without the mentioned audio quality issues.  See these here: www.sonicstudios.com/access.htm#micamp

Come on, guy. I'm sure your amps are great for your DSM mics, but you designed them to produce the proper plug in power for DSM's, not the typical mini-mic that requires 5-9 volts of PIP. It seems that a tinybox or ST-9100 would be a far cheaper and better solution for non DSM mics. Wouldn't you need a battery box to power most non DSM mics when using your preamp? And couldn't there be problems using 2 devices providing PIP? Please explain if I'm mistaken.

My preamps are specifically meant to ONLY power DSM mics and no other.   While my compact preamps may be used with other (self or external module powered) mics, the suggestion  "If needing more gain (not often a requirement if recording in 24 bit) go line in with a good designed external preamplifier to keep recording quality optimized"  meant ANY preamplifier of your choice; sorry to not be more clear about this.

R-09HR seems to have a little bit more very low frequency bandwidth extension than M10’s line input. 
As such, I use this mic+R-09HR+preamp configuration for occasional more professional music sessions meant for eventual CD/DVD-Audio release benefiting from the higher frequency bandwidth at fully compatible CD 88.2K-to-44.1K-integer conversion rate.

Interesting... I'd heard that about the D50, and always wondered about the m10.   Is that something you have measured?

Measured M10 LINE input -3dB to be ~15 cycles where usual measured for other Sony and Edirol is ~7 Hz.  Not a big deal, but a difference nontheless.

[swordfish]

I believe if you go mic in with power off you get more gain from the recorder than if you went line in (assuming a battery box is adequately powering the mics. If recording something very loud). With some recorders you have more chance of overloading the recorder's pre when recording something loud mic in, but all reports are that the M10's mic in is very resistant to overload (at low sensitivity).

With a 24 bit recorder, but don't need to worry much about how good the limiter is. You can record aiming for peaks about -12 dB or so and boost noiselessly in post. That way the limiter should never kick in. Do not set your levels too high (peaking at -2 to -4) because if the band suddenly plays louder your levels will go over 0 dB (or would if the limiter were off) and you'll be at the mercy of how the limiter operates. Limiters are really not that important in a 24 bit recorder. Just record at levels that are conservative. 24 bit recordings can be boosted with much less addes noise than 16 bit recording could.

The low sensitivity mod is a 4.7 Ohm resistor placed appropriately in the mic's mini-plug. It is necessary because the 853 were designed by AT to be run on phantom power and distort when converted to run on plug in power and used to record very loud sources. Chris Church invented it but it is likely to be more expensive from him because you have to pay shipping to & from Canada. I'm guessing it would cost $25-$35 plus shipping to have Sound Professionals do it. I'm not saying they do it better, just that they are probably cheaper due to postage.

Wanted to ask which software you use to boost the recording noiselessly in post.....since I use cool edit and I guess it does not support 24 bit....I received soundforge with the M10....are there tuition links on the web....any good shareware out.

Sorry for all the questions...I am kinda slow once in a while.

SF

[it-goes-to-eleven]

Wanted to ask which software you use to boost the recording noiselessly in post.....since I use cool edit and I guess it does not support 24 bit....I received soundforge with the M10....are there tuition links on the web....any good shareware out.

Sorry for all the questions...I am kinda slow once in a while.

SF

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=117279.0

[Brian Skalinder]

Wanted to ask which software you use to boost the recording noiselessly in post.....since I use cool edit and I guess it does not support 24 bit....

CEP / Audition supports 24-bit.  The thread Freelunch posted includes a link to a discussion of CEP / Audition and 24-bit.