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Author Topic: Best affordable true presssure omnis?  (Read 13677 times)

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jnorman34

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Best affordable true presssure omnis?
« on: May 14, 2008, 11:18:20 AM »
i am in need of a pair of affordable true pressure omnis to use as room/ambient mics in my studio.  i would like to stay away from mics with very small diaprhagms due to self noise issues.  i was thinking akg se300/ck62s, c460/ck92, or maybe AT4049s, but i might consider some of the newer mics if they are good enough, such as the avantone ck1s, or even SP-C4s.  what do youse guys say - what is the best deal in a true pressure omni?  thanks.

J.T.L

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Re: Best affordable true presssure omnis?
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2008, 11:37:08 AM »
The best is decided by your ears and I have found my ears like Avenson Audio STO-2 ...

http://www.avensonaudio.com/sto2.php

...I don't own a pair but a few here have run them.

jnorman34

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Re: Best affordable true presssure omnis?
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2008, 12:05:10 PM »
thanks jtl - i have looked at those, and also the DPA 4090s, but those are two of the models i worry about because of self noise/small capsule size.  i have not yet ruled them out, though...

Offline dallman

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Re: Best affordable true presssure omnis?
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2008, 12:22:35 PM »
I have to confess that most of my recording is not done in a controlled environment, but in that situation I have been really impressed with the AT 3035's which are very reasonable price wise. They really are impressive on string instruments like the cello, and have good overall range and presence.
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jnorman34

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Re: Best affordable true presssure omnis?
« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2008, 01:01:28 PM »
hiya dalman - i know several people like the 3035 ( a cardoid pattern mic), but i was asking about omnis, specifically true pressure omnis (schoeps mk2, dpa 4006, etc), as opposed to dual membrane mics that create an omni pattern by combining the output of two diaprhagms (ie, U87, AT4050s, etc).  thanks.

Offline JD

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Re: Best affordable true presssure omnis?
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2008, 01:06:24 PM »
I'm really happy with the recordings I get from my Avenson STO2's. Great mics for the money.

I've only use them for outdoor concert recording, not sure how they would do in a studio environment.
Mics: DPA 4022, 4060; Nevaton MC51, MCE400; Gefell sms2000, m20, m21, m27
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Offline dallman

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Re: Best affordable true presssure omnis?
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2008, 04:59:00 PM »
hiya dalman - i know several people like the 3035 ( a cardoid pattern mic), but i was asking about omnis, specifically true pressure omnis (schoeps mk2, dpa 4006, etc), as opposed to dual membrane mics that create an omni pattern by combining the output of two diaprhagms (ie, U87, AT4050s, etc).  thanks.

Sorry about the dylexia. ;D :-X 8)
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Offline ambo

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Re: Best affordable true presssure omnis?
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2008, 05:20:57 PM »
AT3032's are nice and quiet too. About 8db according to tests done by the folks at Naturerecordists.org.  I use them usually in a Jecklin Disc setup for soundscape recordings and small acoustic ensembles as well as marimba and drumset. I also have a pair of Peluso CEMC 6's with card caps. Is anyone familiar with the omni or wide card caps for the Peluso's? The cards sound very nice and also quiet - about 14db. The Avensons, like the Earthworks mics have a very small diaphram and are noisier but are quite highly regarded sound wise.

Offline muj

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Re: Best affordable true presssure omnis?
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2008, 05:24:50 PM »
i am in need of a pair of affordable true pressure omnis to use as room/ambient mics in my studio.  i would like to stay away from mics with very small diaprhagms due to self noise issues.  i was thinking akg se300/ck62s, c460/ck92, or maybe AT4049s, but i might consider some of the newer mics if they are good enough, such as the avantone ck1s, or even SP-C4s.  what do youse guys say - what is the best deal in a true pressure omni?  thanks.

if you got the $$$ the josephson c617 might be a good idea....IF $$$ is restricted http://www.bswa-tech.com/pdf/SM4000.pdf


RebelRebel

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Re: Best affordable true presssure omnis?
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2008, 06:24:36 PM »
i am in need of a pair of affordable true pressure omnis to use as room/ambient mics in my studio.  i would like to stay away from mics with very small diaprhagms due to self noise issues.  i was thinking akg se300/ck62s, c460/ck92, or maybe AT4049s, but i might consider some of the newer mics if they are good enough, such as the avantone ck1s, or even SP-C4s.  what do youse guys say - what is the best deal in a true pressure omni?  thanks.

if you got the $$$ the josephson c617 might be a good idea....IF $$$ is restricted http://www.bswa-tech.com/pdf/SM4000.pdf



erm..he was asking about affordable, Muj.  :D  Never even heard of bswa,..man, ima say this again...you come up with some off the wall stuff, bro!   ;D ;D


Jnorman,

I dont know if you are aware of Tony Faulkner and his reputation, but he has said some good things about Rode Microphones.

http://www.rodemic.com/microphone.php?product=NT55

(per Tony, below)

My favourite small diaphragm omni is the Rode most probably.  There's a surprise.  They do an omni capsule for the NT5, NT55 and NT6 - it's very good and very omni.  If you want something more politically correct and less omni (i.e. more directional, which can be useful in the real world) I'ld suggest the Schoeps MK2H or DPA4003.


Tony is amazing, been in the business for long time, gazillion grammys working with the best classical musicians in the world, etc etc...

« Last Edit: May 15, 2008, 11:53:31 AM by Teddy »

jnorman34

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Re: Best affordable true presssure omnis?
« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2008, 06:36:01 PM »
thanks to all you guys - so, no love for the avantones, i see.  nobody even sticking up for 460/480 with ck92.  i had a pair of nt5s once, which i thought were very similar to my km184s - okay for acoustic guitar and some piano applications, but thin as a main pair.  i could not find a freq response graph for the nt55 omni capsule - anybody got one?

Offline Church-Audio

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Re: Best affordable true presssure omnis?
« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2008, 06:41:14 PM »
thanks jtl - i have looked at those, and also the DPA 4090s, but those are two of the models i worry about because of self noise/small capsule size.  i have not yet ruled them out, though...

I have the DPA 4007 Omni mic and I have compared it to the DPA 4090 and the 4090 came out pretty good. If you are concerned about noise you definitely want the 4090 over the 4091. I think for the money the 4090 is very hard to beat. And they are very natural sounding mics.

Chris
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RebelRebel

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Re: Best affordable true presssure omnis?
« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2008, 06:44:34 PM »
thanks to all you guys - so, no love for the avantones, i see.  nobody even sticking up for 460/480 with ck92.  i had a pair of nt5s once, which i thought were very similar to my km184s - okay for acoustic guitar and some piano applications, but thin as a main pair.  i could not find a freq response graph for the nt55 omni capsule - anybody got one?

http://www.rodemic.com/downloads/nt55/nt55_product_manual.pdf


polar plots and freq response both are there.

When Tony talks, I listen. He is a giant among engineers.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2008, 06:50:06 PM by Teddy »

RebelRebel

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Re: Best affordable true presssure omnis?
« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2008, 06:45:51 PM »
thanks to all you guys - so, no love for the avantones, i see.  nobody even sticking up for 460/480 with ck92.  i had a pair of nt5s once, which i thought were very similar to my km184s - okay for acoustic guitar and some piano applications, but thin as a main pair.  i could not find a freq response graph for the nt55 omni capsule - anybody got one?


Avantones avensons  :Pin my experience are very, very noisy. Similar to earthworks in that they are both very open/clean but for acoustic sources, unusable due to the high self noise.

« Last Edit: May 14, 2008, 06:48:33 PM by Teddy »

easy jim

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Re: Best affordable true presssure omnis?
« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2008, 06:51:51 PM »
nobody even sticking up for 460/480 with ck92.

I think you mean the AKG ck62 with the 460/480, right?  The ck92 is the omni cap. for the blueline (390) series.

Of the AKG omnis, I like the 19mm ck22/ck2 with the 451/452 series better than the 21mm ck62 w/ the 460/480.  The ck22/ck2 also sounds nice with a reducer ring/460, but I still prefer 'em with the 45_ series mic bodies.

Offline Busman Audio

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Re: Best affordable true presssure omnis?
« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2008, 07:50:28 PM »
You could always try my mics they come with omni,card,hyper and subcard and sound great in my studio here. I am fairly close to you too.
Only $500 for the pair with all the accessories. I feel they beat a good number of the mics that have been mentioned.

sorry to advertise but they really are great mics.
Busman mics of all kinds>some type of busman modified recorder.

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Offline Church-Audio

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Re: Best affordable true presssure omnis?
« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2008, 08:13:17 PM »
Yeah I have heard nothing but good things about the Busman mics. For the price its a pretty good deal.

Chris
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Offline DSatz

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Re: Best affordable true presssure omnis?
« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2008, 09:14:24 PM »
Teddy, the only way that a microphone can be "more omni" than a Schoeps MK 2H is for it to be smaller, and the original poster said he specifically did not want that for reasons of noise, which makes sense.

I have very great regard for Tony Faulkner, too--but no one should take such endorsements seriously no matter who they're from, except Joss Whedon. He would never lie. But then again he doesn't record stuff (as far as I'm aware), either.

--best regards
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

jnorman34

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Re: Best affordable true presssure omnis?
« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2008, 09:24:37 PM »
hi david - always glad to see your comments here, though i dont see you recommending anything... :-)  what do you think is a good affordable omni?

hey busman - can you provide a freq response graph for your capsules for the bsc1?
 
thanks again, guys.  great forum.

RebelRebel

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Re: Best affordable true presssure omnis?
« Reply #19 on: May 14, 2008, 09:36:50 PM »
Teddy, the only way that a microphone can be "more omni" than a Schoeps MK 2H is for it to be smaller, and the original poster said he specifically did not want that for reasons of noise, which makes sense.

I have very great regard for Tony Faulkner, too--but no one should take such endorsements seriously no matter who they're from, except Joss Whedon. He would never lie. But then again he doesn't record stuff (as far as I'm aware), either.

--best regards

You seem to be a bit touchy about Schoeps, David.  :) That is ok though, we all have a tendency to align with one microphone company or other(I am fiercely loyal to Gefell, for example. Not so loyal that I try to correct every post that is counter to what I say or think ;D ;), but loyal.) Respectfully, I trust Tony's ears, talent, and experience over mine(and damn near anyone else's out there recording) any day of the week. I dont take anyone's endorsements seriously(mostly, anyway) unless they have the experience and wisdom to back up what they say(Mr. Faulkner does).  At any rate...the jib of the post is that the Rode is a very good omni , the point of it being more or less an omni than a schoeps was secondary as schoeps is not what one would typically call "affordable" .  (For my money id take my c617 bodies with gefell mk221 caps over any schoeps, neumann, dpa , sonodore, or whatever.. They are the king o the heap.. but that is neither here nor there) :P
« Last Edit: May 14, 2008, 09:42:18 PM by Teddy »

RebelRebel

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Re: Best affordable true presssure omnis?
« Reply #20 on: May 14, 2008, 09:42:59 PM »
hi david - always glad to see your comments here, though i dont see you recommending anything... :-)  what do you think is a good affordable omni?

hey busman - can you provide a freq response graph for your capsules for the bsc1?
 
thanks again, guys.  great forum.

James, did you see the Rode data .pdf?

Offline DSatz

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Re: Best affordable true presssure omnis?
« Reply #21 on: May 14, 2008, 10:23:39 PM »
Teddy, this is amusing: I come back here and find two messages, one of which points out that I almost never recommend any specific microphone (which is true for a slew of reasons) and asking me what I'd recommend--while the other one, from you, does a grinning/ducking/running thing for my having pointed out that a well-respected engineer said something that's objectively incorrect.

I would have objected if someone had said something untrue about a microphone of any other brand, provided that I was aware of the facts. Anyone who's read my posts on Klaus Heyne's forum or the Neumann Pinboard knows that I don't carry a torch for any one manufacturer in my on-line postings. I truly do not believe that I know which type of microphone is best for anyone else to use.

On the other hand we can talk about some of the objective qualities that make one or another omni (pressure) transducer better than another for certain applications, and I have done so numerous times, with pictures and graphs and everything.

Anyway to answer your point let's put the AKG C 451 (the ones from ca. 1972) into the same hopper with the Schoeps since they were exactly the same outer diameter. And we might as well include Neumann KM 83s, etc. even though they're 1 - 2 mm larger depending on when they were made. However, the size of the capsule (the internal part) and the size of the housing (the outer sleeve) both enter into things, and Schoeps capsules are typically about 2/3 the diameter of their housings--so the MK 2H is in fact a bit closer to being truly omnidirectional at high frequencies than many other microphones which have identical outside dimensions.

Not by much--but the point is that the opposite, as claimed, is not true. And the point is, let's take what people say seriously--don't just venerate them because they're Great Famous Award Winning Men who surely must have been thinking something profound, when what they actually said was provably mistaken, as in this case.

--best regards
« Last Edit: May 14, 2008, 10:39:33 PM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

RebelRebel

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Re: Best affordable true presssure omnis?
« Reply #22 on: May 14, 2008, 10:26:59 PM »
Teddy, then let me put the AKG C 451 (the ones from ca. 1972) into the same hopper since they were exactly the same diameter as the Schoeps. And we might as well include Neumann KM 83s, etc. even though they're 1 - 2 mm larger in diameter depending on when they were made.

Actually the size of the capsule and the size of the housing both enter into things, and Schoeps capsules are distinctly smaller than their housings--so the MK 2H is in fact a bit closer to being truly omnidirectional at high frequencies than some other microphones which have identical outside dimensions. (But not by a whole lot.)

The point is, let's take what people say seriously--don't just let them off the hook because they're Great Famous Men who surely must have been thinking something profound, when what they actually said was provably mistaken.

--best regards

Well, let me ask you this. What makes one mic vs the other more omnidirectional? I need to read more I reckon.


Offline DSatz

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Re: Best affordable true presssure omnis?
« Reply #23 on: May 14, 2008, 10:54:13 PM »
OK, "omnidirectional" is an absolute adjective, like "in order to form a more perfect union" in the preamp to the Constitution, so you have to give the writer a tiny bit of slack.

The issue is that the wavelengths of sound at the highest audible frequencies are very short. Long waves can flow around solid objects, but shorter waves tend to be reflected or bent (diffracted) depending on the shapes and dimensions involved. Generally if a solid object is half the wavelength of sound at a given frequency, its presence in the sound field will disturb the sound at that frequency (and higher up).

So if you do the arithmetic, if sound travels at 1100 feet per second, then 1 inch is one wavelength for around 13,200 Hz, so it's a half-wavelength for around half of that, or about 6600 Hz. And if you look at the polar diagrams for microphones with a diameter in this class, you'll see that the pattern starts to become narrower right around that range of frequencies. Even though it is still a pressure transducer, the pattern is no longer omnidirectional at the highest frequencies.

That's the appeal of smaller (e.g. 1/2" or 1/4") diameter omni capsules: they retain their omnidirectional pattern to correspondingly higher frequencies. That's important in certain acoustical measurement applications. Whether it matters so much for audio recording is another question entirely--generations of engineers have used microphones which were 1" across or even larger, despite the fact that their polar pattern at the highest frequencies was far from ideal. This is because the sound arriving on axis is mostly direct sound, while the reflected sound in a hall mostly arrives off-axis, and you generally want some high-frequency absorption to take place for indirectly arriving sound, so that it doesn't smear the stereo image.

But it all depends on the room acoustics, the miking distances, the type of music, and most of all, what you want out of a recording, really.

Generally I find most useful a pressure microphone which is some compromise between a free-field and a diffuse-field type. I have a pair of free-field capsules (Schoeps MK 2) and have used them exactly three times that I can recall in 30 years of owning them. I also own a pair of diffuse-field microphones (Neumann KM 83) which I used to use a lot back in the mid-1970s, but those recordings sounded pinched and metallic. Later on I learned how to equalize them to make them sound a whole lot more natural--I've had a good time reclaiming those old recordings lately.

I don't record with spaced omnis all that terribly often any more, but when I do, I usually use a capsule type which was specifically designed for placement near the distance at which the direct sound and reverberant sound in a hall approximately match or balance one another. They're from Schoeps (MK 2S), so sue me.

But I'm not endorsing them above other compromises of similar type and quality, which absolutely do exist in the world--frankly the easiest type of condenser microphone to make well is a pressure transducer. Not many people make a good supercardioid or figure-8, but there are plenty of pretty good and even really good omni condensers, and even some dynamic omnis that are worth listening to.

--best regards
« Last Edit: May 14, 2008, 11:18:28 PM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline John Willett

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Re: Best affordable true presssure omnis?
« Reply #24 on: May 15, 2008, 06:48:18 AM »
DSatz is speaking sense.

Regarding Tony Faulkner - if you really want, I'll ring him up and ask, I have known him for 20 odd years and we meet up regularly.

However, his words were probably rewritten by some marketing guy.

Value for money the Røde are pretty good and what I normally suggest if someone wants an inexpensive pair of mics.

But they are in no way comparable to the others mentioned.

I often record with omnis (mainly grand piano) and mine are:-
  • Sennheiser MKH 20
  • Neumann KM-D with both 183 and 131 heads (farfield and nearfield)
  • Sennheiser MKH 8020 (due very soon)
to the good boys I would add:
  • Schoeps
  • DPA
Earthworks can sound nice, but the small capsule size makes them a bit noisy in comparison.

But none of these are what I would call "affordable" as they are all top class pressure omnis.

(Well - affordable to me as I only want the best mics - and as they last 20+ years and tend to appreciate in price ancually would out cheaper than an "affordable" mic. in the long run.)  ;)

jnorman34

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Re: Best affordable true presssure omnis?
« Reply #25 on: May 15, 2008, 11:02:57 AM »
teddy - yes, i found the graphs, thanks - there is a significant bump in the high end for the omni cap, which indicates that it is normalized for diffuse field work, so may not be exactly what i am after. 

satz - as always, thanks for the good solid info.  take care.

john willett - i think it would be a great idea if you could get a straight answer from faulkner about his comments.  thanks.

RebelRebel

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Re: Best affordable true presssure omnis?
« Reply #26 on: May 15, 2008, 11:29:18 AM »
DSatz is speaking sense.

Regarding Tony Faulkner - if you really want, I'll ring him up and ask, I have known him for 20 odd years and we meet up regularly.

However, his words were probably rewritten by some marketing guy.

Value for money the Røde are pretty good and what I normally suggest if someone wants an inexpensive pair of mics.

But they are in no way comparable to the others mentioned.

I often record with omnis (mainly grand piano) and mine are:-
  • Sennheiser MKH 20
  • Neumann KM-D with both 183 and 131 heads (farfield and nearfield)
  • Sennheiser MKH 8020 (due very soon)
to the good boys I would add:
  • Schoeps
  • DPA
Earthworks can sound nice, but the small capsule size makes them a bit noisy in comparison.

But none of these are what I would call "affordable" as they are all top class pressure omnis.

(Well - affordable to me as I only want the best mics - and as they last 20+ years and tend to appreciate in price ancually would out cheaper than an "affordable" mic. in the long run.) 



Nevermind...I was going to type a response, but it was not appropriate.

( a pet peeve of mine is to see *absolute* statements, possibly steering one person or other away from equipment that may(or may not) have a profound impact. There are no absolutes.)

anyway, good luck, JNorman. 

/hijack

« Last Edit: May 15, 2008, 12:03:02 PM by Teddy »

jnorman34

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Re: Best affordable true presssure omnis?
« Reply #27 on: May 15, 2008, 12:25:59 PM »
thanks tedly - btw, has anyone ever told you that you look a lot like johnny cash?

RebelRebel

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Re: Best affordable true presssure omnis?
« Reply #28 on: May 15, 2008, 12:30:34 PM »
thanks tedly - btw, has anyone ever told you that you look a lot like johnny cash?

Youre the first.  ;)  (Though everyone who has ever met me says that I sound just like him(Ive got an extremely "Basso"
 voice)


Offline John Willett

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Re: Best affordable true presssure omnis?
« Reply #29 on: May 15, 2008, 05:20:06 PM »

( a pet peeve of mine is to see *absolute* statements, possibly steering one person or other away from equipment that may(or may not) have a profound impact. There are no absolutes.)


I'm a bit mystified here - You quote me and say you don't like *absolute* statements - but there was not an *absolute* statement in anything I wrote  ???

And I wasn't steering anyone away from anything - did you actually read what I wrote?  ???

RebelRebel

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Re: Best affordable true presssure omnis?
« Reply #30 on: May 15, 2008, 05:56:07 PM »

( a pet peeve of mine is to see *absolute* statements, possibly steering one person or other away from equipment that may(or may not) have a profound impact. There are no absolutes.)


I'm a bit mystified here - You quote me and say you don't like *absolute* statements - but there was not an *absolute* statement in anything I wrote  ???

And I wasn't steering anyone away from anything - did you actually read what I wrote?  ???

But they are in no way comparable to the others mentioned.

that sounds pretty absolute to me, Mr. Willett..at any rate,no matter.  If ive offended you in any way, my apologies.


Offline John Willett

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Re: Best affordable true presssure omnis?
« Reply #31 on: May 15, 2008, 06:16:16 PM »
  If ive offended you in any way, my apologies.

No offence taken, just a bit mystified, that's all.

I thought what I wrote was very fair.

I find the Røde NT5 a microphone that is excellent value for money and produce nice results, it can take the omni head of the NT55 and give a nice pair of mics that, for the price, are excellent value.

Comparing it to the likes of the MKH 20 or 40 are like chalk and cheese - and I have listened.  I am certainly not knocking them, but just putting it all in perspective.

I'm just mystified why you are getting upset.  Sorry.

RebelRebel

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Re: Best affordable true presssure omnis?
« Reply #32 on: May 15, 2008, 06:44:47 PM »
  If ive offended you in any way, my apologies.

No offence taken, just a bit mystified, that's all.

I thought what I wrote was very fair.

I find the Røde NT5 a microphone that is excellent value for money and produce nice results, it can take the omni head of the NT55 and give a nice pair of mics that, for the price, are excellent value.

Comparing it to the likes of the MKH 20 or 40 are like chalk and cheese - and I have listened.  I am certainly not knocking them, but just putting it all in perspective.

I'm just mystified why you are getting upset.  Sorry.

Again, I am not upset, but microphones are matters of taste. As such, when a person comes on and says "brand A is "better" than brand b, I have issues. There are too many variables, too many different pairs of ears ..just way too many unknowns to declare something like that with any authority. anyway, maybe it is a matter of semantics, but I would rather see people post something along the lines of "I enjoyed brand a's sound over that of brand b, but YMMV.."and not "brand A is supreme to any brand B" one is sort of open-ended, one is an authoritative statement You are experienced, have clout etc..so a lot of people that read posts of yours(or some anyway) may purchase based solely on what youve posted. Am I making sense? If not, im not surprised. I suck at the written/typed medium. :) one of the things ive learned that really stuck with me is that there are no absolutes, just one persons preferences vs another. Yes, that is a given, but for those that are impressionable(like I was when I was first seeking advice), not always.
/ramblin!




« Last Edit: May 15, 2008, 06:51:29 PM by Teddy »

Offline boojum

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Re: Best affordable true presssure omnis?
« Reply #33 on: May 15, 2008, 07:56:17 PM »
There are plenty of abosultes.  Right and wrong are one.  Honest and dishonest are another.  To say that one brand of mic is better than another can be true.  White is an absolute.  Black is an absolute.  Black is all color, white is none.  Need I go on?    As usual, YMMV    8)
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RebelRebel

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Re: Best affordable true presssure omnis?
« Reply #34 on: May 15, 2008, 08:42:05 PM »
There are plenty of abosultes.  Right and wrong are one.  Honest and dishonest are another.  To say that one brand of mic is better than another can be true.  White is an absolute.  Black is an absolute.  Black is all color, white is none.  Need I go on?    As usual, YMMV    8)

Well, we arent talking about morality or ethics here, this is a audio-related forum, so obviously I was referring to absolutes in audio..
as for your statement..That is impossible.. One can say that a certain mic SPECS better than another, but that means nothing really. Sound is all that matters. People love tape, tubes...but on paper those certainly arent as good as the digital and transistor counterparts.  You could go by specs alone and buy those "better" mics, but anyone that does that is a damned fool.


« Last Edit: May 15, 2008, 08:44:08 PM by Teddy »

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Re: Best affordable true presssure omnis?
« Reply #35 on: May 15, 2008, 11:59:26 PM »
Teddy, beware the lure of a false dichotomy. Specs can be extremely helpful if they're clear and credible (which from most of the major manufacturers, they tend to be)--but no one here has said that specs are enough on their own, so please don't argue with a "straw man," OK?

I mean, I've used microphones that I would consider quite crapulent today, but at the time they were a step forward for me. I started out in around 1970 using Advent (= bottom-end Beyer Dynamic) microphones, and my next step was a pair of Sony ECM-22P. To my ears now, the recordings I made with those Sony mikes can practically cut glass, they're so hard-edged (and they were also very noisy). But at least they had some output above 6 kHz. So I'm not one to say that "trash" microphones have no value.

Nonetheless there are some microphones which have much lower noise and distortion than other microphones, and there are some microphones which have smoother, more extended frequency response and maintain their polar pattern across a far wider range of frequencies than other microphones, and those things are very important sonically. There are some microphones which are far more reliable than others--about half of my microphones are more than 25 years old and I have one pair that I've probably recorded 1,500 concerts and recitals with, which never failed in all that time. These criteria may not be what everyone cares about consciously all the time--a mediocre mike in a good place can sometimes outdo a great mike that's poorly placed. But I have no qualms about saying that some microphones really are better--sometimes much better--than others.

The microphone in my telephone handset just isn't as good a microphone as the microphones I used this evening to record an opera performance. There, I've said it; now tell me I'm wrong, that I could just as well have used a pair of the microphones from my telephone handset, because there are NO ABSOLUTES (an extremely absolutist statement in itself).

--best regards
« Last Edit: May 16, 2008, 12:02:07 AM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline Church-Audio

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Re: Best affordable true presssure omnis?
« Reply #36 on: May 16, 2008, 01:05:22 AM »

The microphone in my telephone handset just isn't as good a microphone as the microphones I used this evening to record an opera performance. There, I've said it; now tell me I'm wrong, that I could just as well have used a pair of the microphones from my telephone handset, because there are NO ABSOLUTES (an extremely absolutist statement in itself).

--best regards

Well all I want to say is I have a new phone mod for your cell phone that will make it sound as good or better then the 4007 DPA mic. So you can then tell people you have the best sounding phone around  :P

Just kidding.. Well maybe.. ;)

I think in the end the right mic for the right application + the knowledge on how to place it and use it = a good sound and sound it self is very subjective.

Now for some people that brand x for others its brand z. I think that in my 20 years of being in the audio mixing field I have heard some pretty shitty mics sound pretty dam good.
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RebelRebel

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Re: Best affordable true presssure omnis?
« Reply #37 on: May 16, 2008, 02:57:54 AM »
Quote
a good sound and sound it self is very subjective.
..and that is all there is to say really. That sums it up, Chris.


and those things are very important sonically.
Sure they are, to you and others, but David, I guarantee you that there are people that dont give half a damn about those things.
Quote
But I have no qualms about saying that some microphones really are better--sometimes much better--than others.

ok, sure..that is fine as applies to you, but "better" goes out the window when you have other people's tastes to consider. I do not , nor will I ever; accept any declarative statements(such as "a is better than b") as truth.

Quote
The microphone in my telephone handset just isn't as good a microphone as the microphones I used this evening to record an opera performance. There, I've said it; now tell me I'm wrong.

What I think about your microphones doesnt matter. There is no way to quantify taste, period. I dont know how many times ive read in Tape OP or some other rag where some engineer or other preferred to use some "crap" microphone over some vintage this or that, because *gasp* he preferred the sound, specs be damned. . I have Audio technica 4050s that I much prefer over my "top shelf"(another peeve, but not gonna go there) microphones frequently. That shouldnt make any sense, but it does to me...and really that is all that matters. Your truthtaste is yours alone, as is mine , ad infinitum.... I believe that profoundly, and no amount of debate will change my mind.anyway..  I am screwing up Mr. Norman's thread with this pointless debate, so that is all for me. 

My apologies to James.

« Last Edit: May 16, 2008, 03:00:01 AM by Teddy »

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Re: Best affordable true presssure omnis?
« Reply #38 on: May 16, 2008, 05:59:52 AM »
I do not , nor will I ever; accept any declarative statements(such as "a is better than b") as truth.

It is very easy to say that mic. A is "better" than mic. B - you can compare them, you can measure the distortion, you can measure the self-noise, you can measure polar pattern, etc.  and can state categorically that one is better than the other.

Having said this - *you* may find that you prefer the worse one to the better one for your recording, precisely because of the deficiencies in the microphone and what it does to your music.

You can measure quality - but suitability for a specific recording can come down to colour - and colour comes mainly from the "deficiencies" in the microphone.  Some of these may be designed in specifically to give that colour, others just a by-product of the design.

There *is* a difference between "best" and "most suitable for a particular use".

It's very easy to say that one is better than the other - but not so easy to say which may be more suitable as this comes down to personal choice.

Someone once came to me and said he used an SM58 on a bass drum which I thought to be a very bad choice as there are a lot better mics to use for this - he then said that it gave him the exact sound he wanted.  My reply was that it was the correct mic. to use - it was certainly not the best mic., but it was certainly the most suitable mic.

I hope I'm getting this across OK.

DSatz is putting it pretty well, I think.

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Re: Best affordable true presssure omnis?
« Reply #39 on: May 17, 2008, 10:41:41 AM »
I think I owe Teddy an apology,

I had a good talk with Tony Faulkner on microphones - and he did actually find the omni capsule of the Røde 55 better than the DPA and Schoeps - it was extremely quiet, a good omni polar pattern and he was surprised how good it was.

It surprised me too.  I knew they were good value for money, but .....

This *does* only apply to the 55 omni, though, and not across the range.

It will teach me not to jump to conclusions.

Sorry Teddy.




Offline Church-Audio

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Re: Best affordable true presssure omnis?
« Reply #40 on: May 17, 2008, 12:41:48 PM »
I do not , nor will I ever; accept any declarative statements(such as "a is better than b") as truth.

It is very easy to say that mic. A is "better" than mic. B - you can compare them, you can measure the distortion, you can measure the self-noise, you can measure polar pattern, etc.  and can state categorically that one is better than the other.

Having said this - *you* may find that you prefer the worse one to the better one for your recording, precisely because of the deficiencies in the microphone and what it does to your music.

You can measure quality - but suitability for a specific recording can come down to colour - and colour comes mainly from the "deficiencies" in the microphone.  Some of these may be designed in specifically to give that colour, others just a by-product of the design.

There *is* a difference between "best" and "most suitable for a particular use".

It's very easy to say that one is better than the other - but not so easy to say which may be more suitable as this comes down to personal choice.

Someone once came to me and said he used an SM58 on a bass drum which I thought to be a very bad choice as there are a lot better mics to use for this - he then said that it gave him the exact sound he wanted.  My reply was that it was the correct mic. to use - it was certainly not the best mic., but it was certainly the most suitable mic.

I hope I'm getting this across OK.

DSatz is putting it pretty well, I think.

Just because   a mic has better distortion or a better polar pattern more uniform or there is less self noise does not mean its a better mic. In the end depending upon the source these things might not matter. And again sound is subjective and it really does depend on the application specs are not everything, if they were we would all be using the same microphones. But we aren't why because we all hear things differently and a great mics with great specs might not suit the application at hand. For example I hate SM 57's as a tom mic. But in situations where I need a tight polar pattern they work great for drummers with lots of toms close together. The tight pattern helps with phasing issues. But that same tight pattern does not make them a great mic for vocals. But some have used the 57 for vocals and got great sounds from it. There is no one mic that will work for everything. So basing a argument on this mic or that mic being better simply because of specs is misleading and imo wrong.

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RebelRebel

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Re: Best affordable true presssure omnis?
« Reply #41 on: May 17, 2008, 02:59:00 PM »
No problem, Mr. Willett,


We're all friends here, for the most part. (outside of the political zone anyway).  ;)


I think I owe Teddy an apology,

I had a good talk with Tony Faulkner on microphones - and he did actually find the omni capsule of the Røde 55 better than the DPA and Schoeps - it was extremely quiet, a good omni polar pattern and he was surprised how good it was.

It surprised me too.  I knew they were good value for money, but .....

This *does* only apply to the 55 omni, though, and not across the range.

It will teach me not to jump to conclusions.

Sorry Teddy.




« Last Edit: May 17, 2008, 03:00:51 PM by Teddy »

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Re: Best affordable true presssure omnis?
« Reply #42 on: May 19, 2008, 07:17:05 AM »
So basing a argument on this mic or that mic being better simply because of specs is misleading and imo wrong.

Not really.

But "better" does not necessarily mean the most suitable for purpose - this is a different thing.

EG: The MKH 40 is a better mic. than the SM58 - but for stage vocals the SM58 is most suitable for purpose.

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Re: Best affordable true presssure omnis?
« Reply #43 on: May 19, 2008, 07:45:20 AM »
I think that the best anyone can say is that it is up to the end user to determine what is "better"(and I think that in a situation where one person is choosing a microphone, how he or she prefers the *sound* of that microphone is important when deciding which one is"better"..in the end, it all boils down to sound anyway..you cant hear a specification(I dont think, anyway).

Is a microphone automatically *better* because it specs well? I don't think it is. What we hear is much more important. Wound anyone choose one microphone over the other based on technical data alone? Why do people enjoy u47s, ribbons, m50s, rca 44dx, u67, tape machines, tubes, transformers(there are certainly devices that spec out much better)?? I bet there are scores of people who will say that solid state technology is inferior to vaccum tube technology.  :)
« Last Edit: May 19, 2008, 07:49:44 AM by Teddy »

Offline Church-Audio

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Re: Best affordable true presssure omnis?
« Reply #44 on: May 20, 2008, 05:29:51 AM »
So basing a argument on this mic or that mic being better simply because of specs is misleading and imo wrong.

Not really.

But "better" does not necessarily mean the most suitable for purpose - this is a different thing.

EG: The MKH 40 is a better mic. than the SM58 - but for stage vocals the SM58 is most suitable for purpose.

By trying to compair a dynamic mic with a condenser your trying to compair apples to oranges. That comparison is also misleading. I am talking about mics with similar physical and dimensional and electrical characteristics. That is where the line between specs is unimportant. What is important and often gets lost is the "sound" of the microphone, too many people get sucked into "specs" they dont tell the whole story. If they did like I have said before we would all be using the same  microphones sound is subjective and therefore specs alone can never be a determining factor in selection of a microphone.
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Re: Best affordable true presssure omnis?
« Reply #45 on: May 20, 2008, 07:54:50 AM »
..you cant hear a specification(I dont think, anyway).
Actually you *can* - you can hear if a microphone has lower self-noise and lower distortion.  You can hear there things.


Is a microphone automatically *better* because it specs well?
Well, yes it *is* better - but what I am saying is that being "better" does not necessarily mean "most suitable".

Better - is a technical thing and can be measured.
Most suitable - is different and is a subjective decision as to what is most suitable for the job.

I am just trying to separate the technical quality of a mic. away from what is the best mic for the job, which are different things.

Maybe my comparson was a bit extreme, but I hope you see what I am getting at.


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Re: Best affordable true presssure omnis?
« Reply #46 on: May 20, 2008, 11:21:13 AM »
I dont agree with that. Sound is part of the overall picture I think, and some may prefer a microphone that doesnt spec as well.  To those folks, the mic that is "worse on paper." may be better. is the TLM50 a better microphone than the m50? I know several that would say no.  If you dont include how a microphone sounds(and again, some prefer microphones with higher distortion figures, self noise, less than perfect polar patterns, etc because they SOUND good.) , you are missing the most important aspect. Lower distortion, self noise, etc...it isnt a given that people will prefer a pair with perfect specs over a pair with less than perfect specs for *any* job.


definition of better according to Princeton:  comparative of `good') superior to another (of the same class or set or kind) in excellence or quality or desirability or suitability;







..you cant hear a specification(I dont think, anyway).
Actually you *can* - you can hear if a microphone has lower self-noise and lower distortion.  You can hear there things.


Is a microphone automatically *better* because it specs well?
Well, yes it *is* better - but what I am saying is that being "better" does not necessarily mean "most suitable".

Better - is a technical thing and can be measured.
Most suitable - is different and is a subjective decision as to what is most suitable for the job.

I am just trying to separate the technical quality of a mic. away from what is the best mic for the job, which are different things.

Maybe my comparson was a bit extreme, but I hope you see what I am getting at.



Offline Church-Audio

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Re: Best affordable true presssure omnis?
« Reply #47 on: May 20, 2008, 11:46:01 AM »
..you cant hear a specification(I dont think, anyway).
Actually you *can* - you can hear if a microphone has lower self-noise and lower distortion.  You can hear there things.


Is a microphone automatically *better* because it specs well?
Well, yes it *is* better - but what I am saying is that being "better" does not necessarily mean "most suitable".

Better - is a technical thing and can be measured.
Most suitable - is different and is a subjective decision as to what is most suitable for the job.

I am just trying to separate the technical quality of a mic. away from what is the best mic for the job, which are different things.

Maybe my comparson was a bit extreme, but I hope you see what I am getting at.



I guess we see things differently see I see better as "better" for my application, and specs dont figure into that. Because I know as many of us know already that specs dont add up to shit if the mic reproduces the sound you want or desire..

Now you can say that one mic has better specs but that does not translate into a better mic. For example setting aside the noise spec lets compair a DPA 4007 To an earthworks M-50 Now for my ears the DPA 4007 blows the living shit out of the earthworks for any type of application where you need extremely accurate reproduction of a source + the room. When I listen to an earthworks M-50 it feels flat and lifeless to me. Now on paper it would seem that the earthworks mic has the edge due to its extended high frequency response  So for me I leave the spec sheet in the box and use the mic in the field. If it sounds good there then its a good mic. My first concern is sound not specs. Some of the best sounding vocal mics or studio mics in the world have pretty shitty specs. I have heard mics with "great specs'" the main problem is with specs is....

#1 when it comes to measuring a microphone * not a speaker * for frequency response for example there is no industry standard test. So how can one rely on specs?

#2 When it comes to polar response we do have a way of accurately measuring this spec but again there is no industry standard being employed here as well. So again how can we rely on polar pattern specs?

#3 When it comes to self noise we have a standard test but even this seems to be not widely used in the industry.

There are absolutes that we can measure with say a car stereo we can take a measurement mic that is nist traceable and measure the stereo for performance in the acoustic environment that the stereo is used in. That is an absolute test. We can also measure current draw and we can measure distortion.. But again when it comes to measuring mics there is no globally adopted standard source for use in testing a microphone nor is there any methods that are globally accepted.

Each microphone manufacturer uses his or her own methods to produce spec sheets.. Some of them keep there finger on the old plotter pen when the frequency response graphs are being printed * that's an old saying * amongst mic guys.. When you look at the lack of standards how can you therefor trust the spec sheets?

There are company's like DPA that have based there methods on a more scientific and traceable method and imo accurate method. This is why out of all of the companies out there there is only maybe two companies I trust the spec sheet on. One of them is DPA. But again there are mics with lesser specs then say the dpa 4060 that just sound better to most peoples ears.

So again I think there is a real danger saying just because the spec sheet says the mic is better it is better. I think when you live your life by spec sheets your bound to be disappointed.  In the end the best spec sheet is your ears IMO.

« Last Edit: May 20, 2008, 11:47:59 AM by Church-Audio »
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