Topic: Recommendations for replacing Beyer MC930s?

[terabyte23]

Thanks for all the replies, you have given me a lot to chew on!

Although I would dearly love to get a Grace preamp, I am stuck using the internal R-44 preamps for now.  (Edit: I see there are some reasonably-prices Apogee units around...might try that).

I also ran my small AT943s > R-09HR at that show.  The AT943s were on the stand in nearly the same position as the MC930s.  The AT943 source lacks the low end response of the MC930s (unsurprisingly) but it is very nicely detailed.  When I mix the two sources in Wavelab it sounds great!  I was already on the fence about the MC930s, but this experiment really convinced me that the MC930s are not detailed enough for me.

I suppose one option is to keep the MC930s and just always run both sets of mics and mix them later 

[JasonSobel]

another option to try is some minor EQ.  the "lack of detail" that you think you hear on the mc930's might just be that some (lower) frequencies are being emphasized, while some other frequencies (mids/mid-highs) are quieter in your recording.  By balancing the frequency response, you might find that the mc930's already have enough "detail" in the recordings, but it's just being overpowered by the lower frequencies.  Just an idea to try out before spending cash on new mics.

[PH]

Many of the new KM184's sound like ass. That is my professional opinion. I have used at least ten different ones in various studios plus
I have owned a pair. The KM84's are WAY smoother and more musical sounding to my ears.

The new 184's are being made by Sennheiser and they aren't being made in Germany like they had for decades before that.
I'm sorry you are offended by my opinion, but I wouldn't buy a pair.
There are so many better mics out there for less money.

[illconditioned]

Thanks for all the replies, you have given me a lot to chew on!

Although I would dearly love to get a Grace preamp, I am stuck using the internal R-44 preamps for now.  (Edit: I see there are some reasonably-prices Apogee units around...might try that).

I also ran my small AT943s > R-09HR at that show.  The AT943s were on the stand in nearly the same position as the MC930s.  The AT943 source lacks the low end response of the MC930s (unsurprisingly) but it is very nicely detailed.  When I mix the two sources in Wavelab it sounds great!  I was already on the fence about the MC930s, but this experiment really convinced me that the MC930s are not detailed enough for me.

I suppose one option is to keep the MC930s and just always run both sets of mics and mix them later 

Hmm.  I used to like the AT853/943 a lot more than I do now.  I suggest listening to the sources for longer periods and see which one you like better.  As a test, I wonder if you could take two songs and EQ them so they have the same average spectrum.  That may isolate the quality (IMO) of the Beyerdynamic source .  As far as general EQ goes, I rarely adjust this, except in extreme cases (eg., omnis way close to the stage picking up too much bass, or very bass-lacking mics, like Sennheiser MKE40, where I may add *a bit* of bass).  The rule of EQ though, is to make minimal changes.  It is easy to overdo it.

  Richard

[illconditioned]

Many of the new KM184's sound like ass. That is my professional opinion. I have used at least ten different ones in various studios plus
I have owned a pair. The KM84's are WAY smoother and more musical sounding to my ears.

The new 184's are being made by Sennheiser and they aren't being made in Germany like they had for decades before that.
I'm sorry you are offended by my opinion, but I wouldn't buy a pair.
There are so many better mics out there for less money.

I have not heard the KM84, but they are supposed to be much nicer than the 184's.  A collectors' item too, apparantly.

So, where are the 184's made then?  China?  Japan?  I knew they were Sennheiser-made, but I thought that was still Germany.

  Richard

[PH]

Many of the new KM184's sound like ass. That is my professional opinion. I have used at least ten different ones in various studios plus
I have owned a pair. The KM84's are WAY smoother and more musical sounding to my ears.

The new 184's are being made by Sennheiser and they aren't being made in Germany like they had for decades before that.
I'm sorry you are offended by my opinion, but I wouldn't buy a pair.
There are so many better mics out there for less money.

I have not heard the KM84, but they are supposed to be much nicer than the 184's.  A collectors' item too, apparantly.

So, where are the 184's made then?  China?  Japan?  I knew they were Sennheiser-made, but I thought that was still Germany.

  Richard

I'm not 100% sure where they are being made since Neumann has been rather secretive about that info.
I think they are still being assembled in Germany by Sennheiser, but some or many of the parts are coming from various cheap mic centers like China.
There certainly isn'tthe quality control of the older neumanns or even the ones from say 7 or 8 years ago when it was still all done in house.
I'm sure DSatz could shed some light on this subject.

Many of the new ones I have used were brittle and hyped sounding. I say some, not all.

[sam]

I'd consider Neumann KM184, AKG-480 > CK63 combo, or the MBHO-600a > kc200 actives which are listed in the yard sale right now.  All of these would be around $1k used.

I loved the sound of the MBHO kc500 but I felt the kc200s were dull, my opinion. So far I have been really happy with the 480's

[PH]

another option to try is some minor EQ.  the "lack of detail" that you think you hear on the mc930's might just be that some (lower) frequencies are being emphasized, while some other frequencies (mids/mid-highs) are quieter in your recording.  By balancing the frequency response, you might find that the mc930's already have enough "detail" in the recordings, but it's just being overpowered by the lower frequencies.  Just an idea to try out before spending cash on new mics.

I have to agree with Jason here in theory. While the Beyers may or may not have the detail the OP desires, running a High Pass Filter on the low end will seriously help with almost
any recording. Usually there is so much low frequency energy being recorded, that it clouds or overwhelms many of the higher frequencies tied to that root frequency.

For example, if you are looking for more high end clarity or detail, you could use additive EQ and bump the 4K region. Or you could use (preferred) subtractive EQ and pull back the 500hz region a bit, which will actually enhance all of the higher frequencies related to that root. 1K, 2K, 4K, 8K, 16K....    If you want to really accentuate the better frequencies of your recording, try rolling off below 40hz and pull out a few db in the 125hz-500hz range, it will open the top end dramatically.

[TNJazz]

Try a Violet Design Black Finger


seriously.  what you're describing is exactly what they deliver, and they're pretty cheap.  A brand new pair is in the same price range as used MC930's.

They're pretty hefty though, compared to the beyers.

Disclaimer:  yes I am a Violet dealer, but I do try to stay out of discussions like this for the most part.  In this case though, it seems like a no-brainer to me.  If you (or anyone else) would like a 2 week demo pair, drop me a line.

[momule]

Im gonna favor the Peluso But some 460's would prolly fit your needs.

[ghellquist]

Many of the new KM184's sound like ass. That is my professional opinion. I have used at least ten different ones in various studios plus
I have owned a pair. The KM84's are WAY smoother and more musical sounding to my ears.

The new 184's are being made by Sennheiser and they aren't being made in Germany like they had for decades before that.
I'm sorry you are offended by my opinion, but I wouldn't buy a pair.
There are so many better mics out there for less money.

Now even more disinformation.
Neumann KM184-s are and have always been made by Neumann.
A fact though is that Neumann is owned by Sennheiser. Sennheiser is a German company as well.
I believe you are making a great disservice to this board by putting out this disinformation.
It might be that you are confusing the KM184 with the KM84. These are quite different microphones although they share the same capsule design.

The same capsule is also found in the KM140 (which is actually two parts, the amplifier KM100 and the capsule). These all sound slightly (or more) different from each others. As has been mentioned the KM84 is a searched for "vintage" mic nowadays.

I still respect your opinion for not liking the KM184.

// Gunnar

[PH]

Many of the new KM184's sound like ass. That is my professional opinion. I have used at least ten different ones in various studios plus
I have owned a pair. The KM84's are WAY smoother and more musical sounding to my ears.

The new 184's are being made by Sennheiser and they aren't being made in Germany like they had for decades before that.
I'm sorry you are offended by my opinion, but I wouldn't buy a pair.
There are so many better mics out there for less money.

Now even more disinformation.
Neumann KM184-s are and have always been made by Neumann.
A fact though is that Neumann is owned by Sennheiser. Sennheiser is a German company as well.
I believe you are making a great disservice to this board by putting out this disinformation.
It might be that you are confusing the KM184 with the KM84. These are quite different microphones although they share the same capsule design.

The same capsule is also found in the KM140 (which is actually two parts, the amplifier KM100 and the capsule). These all sound slightly (or more) different from each others. As has been mentioned the KM84 is a searched for "vintage" mic nowadays.

I still respect your opinion for not liking the KM184.

// Gunnar

As I said, Neumann is now owned and operated by Sennheiser. Do a little research on your own about how much they share, where many of the parts and assembly takes place for the company. Sennheiser bought Neumann, not the other way around. I'm not suggesting the company makes crap at all, I'm commenting one particular microphone. The KM184.

I'm not confused about any of these mics, having mentioned them both specifically in previous posts. I have owned a pair of newer KM184's and I currently own a pair of 1970's vintage KM84's, along with about 30 other microphones of all sorts. I have used plenty of KM184's in all kinds of applications, both in the studio and in live setings. They are obviously a very common mic.

To my ears, there is clearly a sonic difference between new (meaning the last 7 years or so) KM184's and older ones (meaning since it was introduced until about 7 years ago) I have heard it plus I have talked with other engineers about it.

Something bothered me about one of the posts yesterday, where the poster demanded I create a comp of different mic serial ranges of KM184's just to be qualified to have an opinion about whether I like them or not. Seriously?   To me, that's the main problem with a lot of gear discussions like this, people aren't actually listening with their ears, they would rather examine specs and charts and waveforms. I personally don't need any of that to tell me if a mic has value to me. It either sounds good to my ears, or it doesn't.

If you respect my opinion, then why is it doing a "great disservice" for me to express it?
It is in fact, doing the opposite. I am voiceing my opinion and creating a discussion about the mics in question. What is the problem with that?

And really, who cares anyway. You either like the way a mic sounds or you don't. There are so many great mics out there, the combinations are endless and there is a flavor for everyone to enjoy.

[Roving Sign]

Many of the new KM184's sound like ass. That is my professional opinion. I have used at least ten different ones in various studios plus
I have owned a pair. The KM84's are WAY smoother and more musical sounding to my ears.

The new 184's are being made by Sennheiser and they aren't being made in Germany like they had for decades before that.
I'm sorry you are offended by my opinion, but I wouldn't buy a pair.
There are so many better mics out there for less money.

Now even more disinformation.
Neumann KM184-s are and have always been made by Neumann.
A fact though is that Neumann is owned by Sennheiser. Sennheiser is a German company as well.
I believe you are making a great disservice to this board by putting out this disinformation.
It might be that you are confusing the KM184 with the KM84. These are quite different microphones although they share the same capsule design.

The same capsule is also found in the KM140 (which is actually two parts, the amplifier KM100 and the capsule). These all sound slightly (or more) different from each others. As has been mentioned the KM84 is a searched for "vintage" mic nowadays.

I still respect your opinion for not liking the KM184.

// Gunnar

Something bothered me about one of the posts yesterday, where the poster demanded I create a comp of different mic serial ranges of KM184's just to be qualified to have an opinion about whether I like them or not. Seriously?   To me, that's the main problem with a lot of gear discussions like this, people aren't actually listening with their ears, they would rather examine specs and charts and waveforms. I personally don't need any of that to tell me if a mic has value to me. It either sounds good to my ears, or it doesn't.

So, the newer KM184's DO NOT sound good to my ears. If you respect my opinion, then why is it doing a "great disservice" for me to express it?

You sure do see a lot of 184 sets on ebay...like people got 'em, and then decided "not quite..."

I'm going with the guy with the Grammy...!

[kbergend]

I would advise you to spend as much time as you can listening to recordings on the archive to see which of the mics you're considering most appeals to you.  If you're looking for a brighter sound, I will say I've been extremely satisfied with my 480s and after 2+ years they're still my mics of choice for most situations -- the only SD condensers I've listened to that I like more are MG200s, which are rather pricey.  MBHOs are a little brighter still.  Pelusos are downright glaring and can sound a little harsh IMO, especially on vocals.  I have nothing to say about Neumanns, lol.

I agree to go light on the EQ.  You can definitely bring out detail by suppressing lower frequency ranges, but it's also easy to make a very unnatural-sounding recording in the process.  Certain bass-related issues (like an overpowering kick drum) are often better solved with a multi-band compressor.

I'm always amazed by how natural my little AT943s sound, although they don't have the presence on the low and high ends nor the dynamic range of a full-sized phantom-powered condenser.

[stevetoney]

Chiming in on the KM184 debate.

I'd suggest that possibly the statement that got some folks churned up is 'new KM-184s sound like ass'.

OK, beauty is in the ear of the beholder and everyone is entitled to their opinion, but let's face it, KM184s have their own character and flavor which appeals to alot of people because they're very popular mics...so to those people they don't sound like ass.

Secondly, I think that the reason you see a fair number of 184s for sale used is that there are lots of 184s in the marketplace, just as there are lots of 460/480s out there.  But seeing used mics for sale is hardly proof that they're not good sounding mics. 

In fact, I was the person that recommended KM184s as an option to consider to the OP and I stand by that recommendation.  I think they're fantastic sounding mics...but I respect if someone else doesn't.  That doesn't make them wrong and me right, or vice versa!

The bottom line is that, as always, posts like this generate different opinions for the OP to consider and the best thing is to take those opinions as input for reasearching the archive so taht they can come up with their own preferences.