Topic: Need to replace my AT822: NT4?

[Breeze]

I got my AT822 stolen some time ago. Despite it's limitations I really liked this mic and got some great SFX and ambiance captures with it. Because I'm more of a sound hunter than a music recorder, I prefer to have a simple compact mic setup because I'm constantly moving around; one cable to the A/D is ideal.

I've been looking around and for the price the Rode NT4 looks like the best bet. It's Fq response is full 20-20k Hz and is smoother than anything else I've managed to find in this price range; and the <16 dB SPL noise figure is very respectable.

I haven't found anything to match it overall; does anyone concur or have anything else to suggest? Are there serious caveats I should know about? I've looked at the recent AT's, but they have funky Fq curves and limited ranges. I've read people complain about them on these boards. There doesn't seem to be much else in decent one-point stereo mics in this price range. Thanks.

[dogmusic]

I got my AT822 stolen some time ago. Despite it's limitations I really liked this mic and got some great SFX and ambiance captures with it. Because I'm more of a sound hunter than a music recorder, I prefer to have a simple compact mic setup because I'm constantly moving around; one cable to the A/D is ideal.

I've been looking around and for the price the Rode NT4 looks like the best bet. It's Fq response is full 20-20k Hz and is smoother than anything else I've managed to find in this price range; and the <16 dB SPL noise figure is very respectable.

I haven't found anything to match it overall; does anyone concur or have anything else to suggest? Are there serious caveats I should know about? I've looked at the recent AT's, but they have funky Fq curves and limited ranges. I've read people complain about them on these boards. There doesn't seem to be much else in decent one-point stereo mics in this price range. Thanks.

I do a lot of sound capture myself and was looking at the Avantone CK-40, but it may be cumbersome for your uses.

The AT4050ST is well recommended here by one user and it seems the limited range stated by AT is not a problem. The mic will capture plenty of high freq information.

Refurbished models are going for about 1/2 price on eBay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Audio-Technica-AT4050ST-AT4050-ST-Stereo-Condenser-B-/290552765508?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43a64b5c44

I read some negative comments about the Rode, but I can't remember where or what was said. Just left me with a bad feeling about it.

[notlance]

If you really like the AT822, why don't you buy another one?  They are not hard to find used either here in the Yard Sale or on eBay.  Or, get an AT825 if you want a balanced output; they are pretty easy to find too.

[Breeze]

I do a lot of sound capture myself and was looking at the Avantone CK-40, but it may be cumbersome for your uses.

I saw the CK-40 and it looked good, but it's definitely too big for my purposes.

The AT4050ST is well recommended here by one user and it seems the limited range stated by AT is not a problem. The mic will capture plenty of high freq information.

This is the only AT model I found a serious contender. I'm interested in doing MS and I could have my cake and eat it too with this one. It's strange though that with XY at 90 degrees the S/N falls to 69 dB. In MS it's above 77 dB (?).

But I don't know what's going on with AT's current lineup of stereo mics: if you check the Fq response charts, they're pretty flat to about 5k and then there's major Fq response spikes on every one of them. With the 4050, combined with a steep roll-off starting around 14k, you've looking at 15 dB's of variation from 10k to 20k. Even the lowly 822 looks better. Weird.

I read some negative comments about the Rode, but I can't remember where or what was said. Just left me with a bad feeling about it.

Yeah, I remember reading some negative comments about the NT4 too. I'm wondering about other things like wind sensitivity and handling noise, and how delicate it is.

If you really like the AT822, why don't you buy another one?  They are not hard to find used either here in the Yard Sale or on eBay.  Or, get an AT825 if you want a balanced output; they are pretty easy to find too.

Good question: I found the AT822 somewhat noisy when recording quieter environments. I was hoping to step up to something with a better S/N. But it's not a bad idea to get an 825 and save up for something better. Thanks.

[rastasean]

While more expensive, it would be an upgrade: audio-technica bp4025.

[dogmusic]

But it's not a bad idea to get an 825 and save up for something better. Thanks.

http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280709054580&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:CA:1123

No affiliation.

[Breeze]

While more expensive, it would be an upgrade: audio-technica bp4025.

Check the frequency response in the high end on the BP4025 page (open the hi-res graphic at the bottom of the page). Compare it to the one on the AT825 page.
 

[NOLAfishwater]

I bought the new AT2022 and was really surprised with how nice it sounds for the price. plus it has two settings


specs
http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/wired_mics/a2c67abf775c91bf/index.html

[Breeze]

I bought the new AT2022 and was really surprised with how nice it sounds for the price. plus it has two settings

Hey thanks! I sortof dismissed this one because it's not phantom powered, but the Fq plot looks smoother than most of the others in the current AT stereo lineup and the S/N is better than the 825 by 5 dBs. The punch line is that it's cheaper than the 825 (B&H has it at $249). Good call! I think this might make a good interim mike for me.

Question: can you set the mics anywhere from 90 to 120 degrees? 

[Will_S]

Also, is there an obvious way to hack the 2022 so the mics point outward?  I realize L-R will reverse, no biggy if it allows for near-coincident arrangements.  Got any samples?

[Breeze]

Also, is there an obvious way to hack the 2022 so the mics point outward?  I realize L-R will reverse, no biggy if it allows for near-coincident arrangements.

Interesting question; one cool thing about these unbalanced stereo mics is that they'll be figure-8-ish if connected to a standard XLR balanced input, with the common center signals cancelled by being treated as out-of-phase at the head amp. They could be used this way as the Side mic of an MS pair; I wonder if that might not work better if the mics point outwards.

 

[moooose]

I'm using a NT4 for three years both for music and field recording. I'm happy with it and never had any issue; handling noise is more than acceptable and could be further reduced with a Rode pistol grip shock mount; its S/N is good enough for nature and ambient recordings.
I have no direct experience with any AT stereo mic, therefore I can't do any comparison.

If you like to listen to some field recordings you find them on my soundcloud page (http://soundcloud.com/moooose):
- Night ferry droning, First up then down and Gloria in excelsis Deo were recorded with the NT4>SD 702 (P48);
- Zen gathering, new year's eve and One-stop ride in Milan subway were recorded with the NT4>Sony D 50 (pip).

If you like, I can PM you some concert recording samples, let me know.

[Breeze]

If you like to listen to some field recordings you find them on my soundcloud page (http://soundcloud.com/moooose):
- Night ferry droning, First up then down and Gloria in excelsis Deo were recorded with the NT4>SD 702 (P48);
- Zen gathering, new year's eve and One-stop ride in Milan subway were recorded with the NT4>Sony D 50 (pip).

If you like, I can PM you some concert recording samples, let me know.

Nice bass extension and clarity on this mic. And the noise floor is practically imperceptible on the Zen track. At 480 grams without a pistol grip it seems a little heavy and it's quite big too. But it's definitely a candidate. Thanks for the info and samples, moooose! It would be nice to compare it to some AT2022 sampels.

[NOLAfishwater]

I bought the new AT2022 and was really surprised with how nice it sounds for the price. plus it has two settings

Hey thanks! I sortof dismissed this one because it's not phantom powered, but the Fq plot looks smoother than most of the others in the current AT stereo lineup and the S/N is better than the 825 by 5 dBs. The punch line is that it's cheaper than the 825 (B&H has it at $249). Good call! I think this might make a good interim mike for me.

Question: can you set the mics anywhere from 90 to 120 degrees?

YOu can set the mics at 90 or 120 with a little click. haven't tried to set in between. the 120 sounded great onstage. I bought it as a lightweight idiot-proof rig that anybody could run. it plugs directly into the M10.

[Breeze]

I'd just like to thank everyone who contributed to this thread. I just ordered an AT2022 from The Sound Professionals today. They have a $60 rebate on it till the end of the month, making it a cool $199. I'll post again after I've tried it out.

[F.O.Bean]

I bought the new AT2022 and was really surprised with how nice it sounds for the price. plus it has two settings

Hey thanks! I sortof dismissed this one because it's not phantom powered, but the Fq plot looks smoother than most of the others in the current AT stereo lineup and the S/N is better than the 825 by 5 dBs. The punch line is that it's cheaper than the 825 (B&H has it at $249). Good call! I think this might make a good interim mike for me.

Question: can you set the mics anywhere from 90 to 120 degrees?

YOu can set the mics at 90 or 120 with a little click. haven't tried to set in between. the 120 sounded great onstage. I bought it as a lightweight idiot-proof rig that anybody could run. it plugs directly into the M10.

So you dontr need a preamp to go from mic>m10 Thats a very promising onstage mic Louie

[Breeze]

Well, in the end I've decided to return the AT2022. I tried to test the bias voltage issue (discussed  in this newer thread), but I just don't have the right gear to test it, or the time to build it. In general, I think this mic is a decent budget mic and may do a good job for some but it does require some massaging in post (a bump in the lows and some cutting in the highs). The highs in particular I found to be overly pronounced while the stereo imaging seems a little unfocused.

I think my "ears" (not my hearing...) and my sound system have improved over the last decade and much of what sounded good to me 10 years ago, sounds quite different to me today.

After hearing some impressive recordings online, I've decided to go for the BP4025. I considered the NT4 again, but in the end, I really don't find its size and weight convenient; I've also read many complaints of it's high sensitivity to wind while the 4025 gets good marks there. I realize the AT8022 is probably a good intermediate, offering both battery and phantom power, but I didn't find any recordings done with it and one person complained extensively about its inadequate stereo field. This could be due to the fact that the AT8022 capsules are both perpendicular to the front center, while the BP4025 capsules are at an angle towards it. For the difference in price, I figure I'll go with what I'd heard and liked. Some of the nature recordings I listened to were quite spectacular both in imaging and frequency content. And the near-absent noise floor is a real plus.

What finally sold me was a piano recording directly comparing a VP88 to the BP4025 I found on GS: there was a clear difference between the two recordings, mostly in favor of the VP88. So I downloaded both tracks, stuck them in my DAW and with some stereo image widening using MSED and a little EQ (oddly close to the AT2022 EQ I was using before, but less extreme...), the BP4025 recording ended up almost indistinguishable from the VP-88 one. In that recording the BP4025 was a little over-bright, which will be a good thing if it's buried in foam and rat-fur in the field.

I decided to continue this thread because it's more about stereo mics in general. I'll post again when I get to try out the BP4025.

[Breeze]

It's been a while, but I figured I'd report on my experience with the BP4025. First off, I have to make clear that my interest is more in ambiance and sound effects. Contrary to most people here, my intention is not to record live music. In this role, the BP4025 performs very well indeed. The great signal to noise is obviously an advantage for ambiance/sfx recording, and though the mic does have a somewhat hyped mid to high frequency response it doesn't come off as harsh or buzzy like the AT2022; plus it helps to bring out presence and detail and can be tamed in post. I used it in the field in a Rode blimp + wombat with a MiniMe preamp and Microtrack II.

On the whole it's a clear step up from the AT2022: even though it's still not in the same class as the stereo RF MKH or a matched pair of high-end cardioids, everything I record from it sounds pleasant. What I've captured with it so far is very usable and I'm very happy with the results. The fact that it's a relatively light single-point microphone makes it simple to "point and shoot" and makes my mobile kit easy to handle.   

I don't think I'm where I want to be yet, but for my current purposes it does the trick. I tried recording a track from my speakers live like I did with the AT2022, and there the hyped Fq response really shows but the imaging and dynamic range is really much better,  capturing a level of detail that the AT2022 just missed. 

I'll post samples if I figure out a simple way to do that...

[guysonic]

Most agree that the custom configuired DSM mics are likely the best suited for your requirements for natural sound.  Listen to hundreds of samples on my site at www.sonicstudios.com/mp3.htm

[Breeze]

Most agree that the custom configuired DSM mics are likely the best suited for your requirements for natural sound.  Listen to hundreds of samples on my site at www.sonicstudios.com/mp3.htm

Hi guysonic, thanks for the heads up. Sorry I just noticed your post. The DSM kits look very interesting and the imaging issue is an important one; I was very impressed with imaging. However, for my uses the specs aren't ideal in two critical areas: sensitivity and S/N. With a 25.1 mV output and an 80 dB S/N, the BP4025 simply outclasses all the DSM ECMs in these departments. However, the DSM's will clearly have a place where these parameters aren't as important -ie: where the sources don't need the benefit of low mic noise. Are there better spec'd DSMs than the DSM/1S?

This autumn I was in the deep woods with my BP4025 recording leaves gently falling to the forest floor, and the absence of noise and the clarity of the recording is just stunning, despite Rode Blimp + Wombat. I listened to the Yellowstone Park recording done with the DSM, and as expected, the noise floor is clearly too high. Any recording that includes continuous sounds (wind, water, crowds, etc...) or loud sources will obviously mask the noise floor; for those purposes, the DSM's seem to perform admirably.   

[soundpro]

Hello:

If there are any Tapers looking for a really good deal on the AT2022, which just got 5 of them in at a deal price. I cant advertize it (would be a MAP violation) but call us at 800-213-3021 or send me an email at sales@soundprofessionals.com and I can help you.

Chris Carfagno
The Sound Professionals, Inc
www.soundprofessionals.com

[LesMizzell]

- Zen gathering, new year's eve and One-stop ride in Milan subway were recorded with the NT4>Sony D 50 (pip).

With the D50, are you using the NT4 with the Rode adapter cable that came with it, a different cable, external pre, or what?
Just curious because I'm considering almost this exact setup, but have read elsewhere that the ROde cable has some built-in attenuation and using a different cable was suggested.