Topic: Cardioids - what's the next step?

[F.O.Bean]

i love ca14 mics. cant wait til mine come from spain! they are right up there w $800 mics IMO

[bryonsos]

I don't think many would argue about this being the way to go in that price range:

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=159367.0

[adrianf74]

Bryonsos: You're spot on with referring to Busman's sale.   For $375, that's a smoking hot deal (and a great value for the money).  The OP's looking for something good -- and if he can run open -- then these are worth considering.

obaaron and jagraham: Most definitely.  If I'm up close or outdoors (with good sound), I'll almost always run omnis (and I've got my B3's for that).  The CA-14 omnis are great little mics and served me well when I had them.   

I've pretty much owned every "small" mic available in the sub $800 price range (except for the Sonic Studios stuff) and the sound from most of them is very similar.   I'll choose Church Audio over most of the others because the price can't be beat.   I've had the 4061's, CA-14 omnis and Countryman B3's and I like the B3's for the size and overall sound -- I'm not sure if I liked the CA-14 omnis more or not, however.  For cardioids, I've ended up with AT-853's (card and subcard caps) after a lot of deliberation.  If I hadn't been able to pick up a set from Robb in his last sale, I would've stuck with the CA-14 cards.   The AT-853's > AT-933's (IMHO) but the AT-853's <> CA-14 <> Audix Micro Caps.   It's about what flavour you prefer.

As far as an option between $400 and $900 -- for cards -- there are a few options but none of them make financial sense.   I think it'll be around $1200 or so (with a TinyBox) before you can get some MBHOs or BeyerDynamics but then it's a matter of whether or not you like the sound of "those" mics.

[Brian Skalinder]

I don't think many would argue about this being the way to go in that price range:

Except....

I focus mainly on stealth taping

[blg]

Bryonsos: You're spot on with referring to Busman's sale.   For $375, that's a smoking hot deal (and a great value for the money).  The OP's looking for something good -- and if he can run open -- then these are worth considering.

obaaron and jagraham: Most definitely.  If I'm up close or outdoors (with good sound), I'll almost always run omnis (and I've got my B3's for that).  The CA-14 omnis are great little mics and served me well when I had them.   

I've pretty much owned every "small" mic available in the sub $800 price range (except for the Sonic Studios stuff) and the sound from most of them is very similar.   I'll choose Church Audio over most of the others because the price can't be beat.   I've had the 4061's, CA-14 omnis and Countryman B3's and I like the B3's for the size and overall sound -- I'm not sure if I liked the CA-14 omnis more or not, however.  For cardioids, I've ended up with AT-853's (card and subcard caps) after a lot of deliberation.  If I hadn't been able to pick up a set from Robb in his last sale, I would've stuck with the CA-14 cards.   The AT-853's > AT-933's (IMHO) but the AT-853's <> CA-14 <> Audix Micro Caps.   It's about what flavour you prefer.

As far as an option between $400 and $900 -- for cards -- there are a few options but none of them make financial sense.   I think it'll be around $1200 or so (with a TinyBox) before you can get some MBHOs or BeyerDynamics but then it's a matter of whether or not you like the sound of "those" mics.

Just to clarify, i know there are definite reasons to use omnis over cards, but for me i've had several instances this year where if I had been running them, the recording what have most likely been unlistenable due to non-stop crowd chatter.  I also don't normally do stack tapes and if I do, I don't make that decision until after i'm at the venue. Both of my Afghan Whigs recordings were done 3' from the right stacks and they ended up being some of my best.   I'm sure the bass would have been better had I been running omnis, but I can't complain about what I got.

As far as taping open, even bands i've seen this year that allow it (which is very few), often times the venue does not.  Many venues here have "union restrictions," whatever that means, and either don't allow taping and/or charge a hefty fee for board access.

[F.O.Bean]

I plan on running my CA14 Cards/Omnis>CA 9100>M10 as my 2nd main rig, until I get my mk21>KCY[need]>TB[need]>M10[need] rig running HOPEFULLY for next summer. But if I dont get my 2nd schoeps rig going for summer 2013, I will be more than happy with my CA14>9100>M10 setup for side stages And besides, its ALL ABOUT location/location/location Which Im usually in the right spot for

[bryonsos]

I don't think many would argue about this being the way to go in that price range:

Except....

I focus mainly on stealth taping

Oops, read past that part. It does say "mainly" though, so in that price range they're still a strong contender.

[Brian Skalinder]

Oops, read past that part. It does say "mainly" though, so in that price range they're still a strong contender.

Heh...I'd composed a full reply before catching it, and had to re-do the whole thing.  No question the BSC's are a great value for open taping.

[bryonsos]

OK, now that I've read the whole thread, I'm going to (predictably) chime in for omnis. If you're going to be up front, doing 007 work, and you're not sure where *exactly* you're going to be in relation to the stacks, omnis are the way to go. Even in open taping situations, if you have a screamer or a loud clapper nearby, cards will hear them too. Don't be fooled by the TS propaganda that says the directionality of cards or hypers will reduce the crowd noise, it's crap 90% of the time. Those mics WILL help compensate for reflection, reverb and other stuff that you get from a bad room or crappy PA, but if you're in the impact zone of the sound it doesn't matter. Run omnis at all costs, in the face of danger up front. I have B3s, and if I taped metal I'd run them with one of the grids that give a high end boost, but since I record mostly Americana and jam bands, I'm happy with the flat grids. YMMV.

[acidjack]

OK, now that I've read the whole thread, I'm going to (predictably) chime in for omnis. If you're going to be up front, doing 007 work, and you're not sure where *exactly* you're going to be in relation to the stacks, omnis are the way to go. Even in open taping situations, if you have a screamer or a loud clapper nearby, cards will hear them too. Don't be fooled by the TS propaganda that says the directionality of cards or hypers will reduce eliminate the crowd noise, it's crap 90% of the time. Those mics WILL help compensate for reflection, reverb and other stuff that you get from a bad room or crappy PA, but if you're in the impact zone of the sound it doesn't matter. Run omnis at all costs, in the face of danger up front. I have B3s, and if I taped metal I'd run them with one of the grids that give a high end boost, but since I record mostly Americana and jam bands, I'm happy with the flat grids. YMMV.

FTFY  There's little question that a cardiod or hypercardiod or shotgun mic will pick up less off-axis noise of all types than an omni.  Whether it is a substantial-enough reduction vis a vis other factors is the question.  I've played with this by running my 414s in various settings at the same show between different bands.  There's no question the omnis have MORE crowd noise, but a ton more...?  Maybe not.  In open taping.

My experience in stealth taping has been: (1) running cards instead of omnis will definitely reduce the amount of sound of people behind you and off to the side but (2) unless those cardiods are awesome, they will probably sound much less realistic than a quality small omni.

That said, as far as a metal show is concerned, I completely agree with your advice.  Also, I personally usually stealth with omnis.

[F.O.Bean]

OK, now that I've read the whole thread, I'm going to (predictably) chime in for omnis. If you're going to be up front, doing 007 work, and you're not sure where *exactly* you're going to be in relation to the stacks, omnis are the way to go. Even in open taping situations, if you have a screamer or a loud clapper nearby, cards will hear them too. Don't be fooled by the TS propaganda that says the directionality of cards or hypers will reduce the crowd noise, it's crap 90% of the time. Those mics WILL help compensate for reflection, reverb and other stuff that you get from a bad room or crappy PA, but if you're in the impact zone of the sound it doesn't matter. Run omnis at all costs, in the face of danger up front. I have B3s, and if I taped metal I'd run them with one of the grids that give a high end boost, but since I record mostly Americana and jam bands, I'm happy with the flat grids. YMMV.

Agreed, it's more about mic height than running cards or hypers. Just to be safe, I run hypers AND run pretty high. That equals not much chatter at all!

[Mr.Scully]

Cardioids vs. omnis... since I often end up somwhere at the balcony (very far from the sweet spot), I have to use cardioids (I think). For small clubs I will do some more tests. Once I did compare CA-14 omnis vs. CA-14 cardioids vs. SP-CMC-8 in a small (500 people) club and found only very minor differences that didn't persuade me to use omnis instead of cardioids.

[adrianf74]

What they (Bryonsos and AcidJack) said.

I've run all sorts of omnis and cards (small capsule mics) over the past two decades.  I've also had the chance to run AKG 481/3's a handful of times and attend shows with somebody who runs them religiously.  I think that gives me a good insight into what "works" and doesn't.

In open taping, I'll generally run cards (or hypers) if I'm at the board, DFC.  It always depends on the size of the room, the height and configuration of the stacks, and the distance from the stage to the board itself as to which capsule on the AKG's I'll choose (or my buddy will choose).   Then there's the small capsule mics and 007 shows...

I've run everything from CSB to Squidly Diddly to SP-CMC-8's (AT-933/c) to CA-14 (omnis and cards) to the DPA 4061 to the Countryman B3 and (soon) the AT-853/c and /sc.  In clubs, I always try to get up close if I can (but not to the point where the stacks are too directly above me) -- maybe 10-15 feet from them.  In this case, it'll _ALWAYS_ be omnis.   If I get stuck back further, then often I'll choose the cards but I find they sound 'more artificial' and less 'true' to what I heard at the show.  And then there's the odd arena show where I'm *never* where I am.  In those shows, it's cards all the ways.  I've even run the SP-CMC-8's 5th row at a Cure show 4.5 years ago and that's probably better sounding than it would've been if I'd used omnis.   I'm sure the noise rejection on the omnis isn't as good as it would be with the cards, however, I'd rather have "natural" sounding recordings when I can.  If you're stuck next to a drunken wook or Chatty Cathy, you're pooched and your recording's toast.  Doesn't matter if it was with the cards or the omnis.   I've heard many good card recordings ruined by wooks (both open and 007). 

So. I generally choose my omnis but look forward to playing with my AT-853/c and /sc caps.  I've heard some recordings made with the /sc and they're quite natural sounding while getting rid of a little bit of the noise behind the mics.

[shownomarcy]

Hi Mr.Scully! This was a good topic, I'm in similar situation. I have AT 853 mics + Edirol R-09HR and I also try to record both audio and video. It's really not easy, I must say. Sometimes when Im not forced to stealth rec, I set my mics at the soundboard in a club and I go somewhere else to record video. But if I'm in a big stadium and need to choose, I choose a place what is better for the video... what a shame!

I was also thinking about upgrading but Im realizing that the results are sometimes SOO much depends on the venue, your place etc. so that sometimes counts even more than a little better mic.

[robeti]

But if I'm in a big stadium and need to choose, I choose a place what is better for the video... what a shame!

I was also thinking about upgrading but Im realizing that the results are sometimes SOO much depends on the venue, your place etc. so that sometimes counts even more than a little better mic.

Same here. When I'm stealthing audio + video at the same time, video always has priority.