Topic: Inexpensive mic recommendations for recording techniques class

[fmaderjr]

For true bargain-basement, I've also read surprisingly good things about the Behringer C-2 ($60/pr). 

I bought a pair since they cost next to nothing and recorded a friend's band with them. The recording sounded very good to me.
Check out these reviews on Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Behringer-C-2-Matched-Condenser-Microphone/dp/B000CZ0RLU

[voltronic]

For true bargain-basement, I've also read surprisingly good things about the Behringer C-2 ($60/pr). 

I bought a pair since they cost next to nothing and recorded a friend's band with them. The recording sounded very good to me.
Check out these reviews on Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Behringer-C-2-Matched-Condenser-Microphone/dp/B000CZ0RLU

Any samples you could share?  Previously, the only mics I'd feel confident recommending in this price range are from Naiant.  My X-Q's cost me less than $70 for the pair in 2007 and still perform great.

[2manyrocks]

Something tells me to be cautious about giving mic recommendations to a school district in case someone gets a set of mics, makes bad recordings, and then it somehow gets laid at your feet.  The trouble with so many inexpensive microphones is you'll find people who say they like them and then you'll find another group that hates them.   If they buy mics with a 30 day return policy, at least they have 30 days to send them back if they don't like them, and that sort of gets you out of the line of fire because you can always say, "why didn't you send them back if you don't like them?"

[fmaderjr]

Any samples you could share?  Previously, the only mics I'd feel confident recommending in this price range are from Naiant.  My X-Q's cost me less than $70 for the pair in 2007 and still perform great.

Sorry. I only used them once and it was just a dueling piano routine in bad acoustics so it wouldn't have helped much. Sounded about as good as Church Audio mics would have sounded in that situation, but I had no reason to save it.

[aaronji]

I find that the wider pattern and better off-axis response make them much more flexible / forgiving at greater distances than standard cardioids, and up close I never find them to be too bright.

Can you elaborate on this a little, please?  I think the conventional wisdom would be to use more directional mics at greater distances, for the improvement in the ratio of direct to reverberant sound.  Also, do mics get brighter at closer range?  If anything, I would expect that proximity effect would make directional microphones sound relatively less bright up close...

OM1 is on my list of possible future purchases - every recording I hear of them knocks me out given what they cost.  Currently the only omnis I'd rather own instead are DPA 4060s or 4006s.

Lots of great omnis out there.  There is this German company that makes some that are very highly regarded in classical recording circles...

[voltronic]

I find that the wider pattern and better off-axis response make them much more flexible / forgiving at greater distances than standard cardioids, and up close I never find them to be too bright.

Can you elaborate on this a little, please?  I think the conventional wisdom would be to use more directional mics at greater distances, for the improvement in the ratio of direct to reverberant sound.  Also, do mics get brighter at closer range?  If anything, I would expect that proximity effect would make directional microphones sound relatively less bright up close...

OM1 is on my list of possible future purchases - every recording I hear of them knocks me out given what they cost.  Currently the only omnis I'd rather own instead are DPA 4060s or 4006s.

Lots of great omnis out there.  There is this German company that makes some that are very highly regarded in classical recording circles...

The subcardiod pattern makes them have less bass roll-off at distance compared to regular cardiods.  Also, if you look at the polar plots, the CM3 is much more consistent off-axis throughout its range compared to other subcardiods.  In my experience with them, it makes placement a bit more forgiving, especially in the vertical aiming.

The "bright" sound up close is a criticism I've heard about other mics in this price range.  I agree that proximity effect would contradict this, but maybe some other mics have peaky treble that is more noticeable up close.  My statement was just intended to say that I find the sound of the CM3 to be smooth throughout.

Gee, I wonder what German company you're referring to?   They probably make the best cardiods and fig-8s (the last tied with the Sennheiser MKH50 I think), but for omnis I prefer the sound of DPAs.

[aaronji]

The subcardiod pattern makes them have less bass roll-off at distance compared to regular cardiods.  Also, if you look at the polar plots, the CM3 is much more consistent off-axis throughout its range compared to other subcardiods.  In my experience with them, it makes placement a bit more forgiving, especially in the vertical aiming.

Definitely less bass roll-off, but definitely more reverberant sound as well.  The bass can be EQ'ed easily in a lot of cases, but it is very difficult to EQ out the extra reverberant sound...

I would be very careful in trying to compare the CM3s to other wide cards, like the 4015 or MK21, based solely on polar plots.  How the plots are made makes a big difference, and, unless you know that the various manufacturers followed the exact same method, they might not be particularly comparable.  Looking at the Line Audio plots, it is obvious that they have been smoothed considerably.  Either that or they have some mastery of microphone engineering that Schoeps doesn't (and I doubt that).

Gee, I wonder what German company you're referring to?   They probably make the best cardiods and fig-8s (the last tied with the Sennheiser MKH50 I think), but for omnis I prefer the sound of DPAs.

I personally like DPA omnis, but there are a lot of good ones out there (and not just the Schoeps I referred to earlier)...There are a bunch I would rather have than the OM1s, but, of course, everyone has their own preferences.

[2manyrocks]

I have read that Line Audio CM3s may yield a more pleasant choir recording by less experienced singers because of that smoothing.  I made a high school choir recording with Schoeps, and every flaw stood out. 

[aaronji]

I have read that Line Audio CM3s may yield a more pleasant choir recording by less experienced singers because of that smoothing.  I made a high school choir recording with Schoeps, and every flaw stood out.

That's not the kind of smoothing to which I was referring.  I meant curve smoothing, to make the polar plots look very smooth and even.  When plotted accurately, with no smoothing, polar plots (and frequency response plots for that matter) tend to be kind of bumpy...   

[voltronic]

I have read that Line Audio CM3s may yield a more pleasant choir recording by less experienced singers because of that smoothing.  I made a high school choir recording with Schoeps, and every flaw stood out.

That's not the kind of smoothing to which I was referring.  I meant curve smoothing, to make the polar plots look very smooth and even.  When plotted accurately, with no smoothing, polar plots (and frequency response plots for that matter) tend to be kind of bumpy...

Yeah, I was picking up what you were putting down there.  FWIW, the Line Audio OM1 frequency / polar charts specify 1/12 octave narrow smoothing.  There's no such indication on the CM3 plots.  The OM1 is a much newer model so was probably measured much more recently.
http://www.lineaudio.se/CM3.html
http://www.lineaudio.se/OM1.html

[voltronic]

Plenty of small omnis are extremely flat-response yet quite detailed, but the basic problem is the issue with a poor choir is variation of pitch, which any microphone will easily resolve.  When we are discussing flatness of response, we are talking about maybe +/-3dB at various frequencies, but generally in the high frequency range.  The fundamental pitches in error will be <500Hz.  So while a microphone without a smooth response might not form an accurate stereo image, it can't make a bad choir sound good.

I agree - I don't think a microphone - even a pretty bad one - can hide mistakes like this at all.  I'm a choir director, and no matter what mics I've used to record my groups, even built-in mics, all errors (especially pitch) are laid bare.  It may not sound the best, but you can instantly hear any pitch, tone quality, vowel formation, or timing errors.  This is a great teaching tool, as it reinforces to my students that I'm not completely crazy.

What using better equipment and technique has done to improve this for me as a teaching tool, is to make the imaging and presence far more true-to-life, and the resulting recording more pleasing to listen to.  This makes my students more interested in listening to their performances to self-assess, even if it still painful to hear themselves.  If your recording has good stereo imaging, you can also more clearly hear where individual errors are coming from.  The painful self-analysis part is still true even on a relatively low-quality recording though.

A super-smooth treble is always going to sound better I guess, but for an a capella choir recording you likely won't notice such small inconsistencies.  And if you do, it's probably only going to be a professional choir with flawless intonation in a great acoustic where you have a chance of those high harmonics being heard.

[2manyrocks]

Recording will make plain to anyone who will listen where things aren't going well in a choir.  Used inappropriately, it can be crushing. Used appropriately, it can be a valuable teaching tool and I am surprised that it isn't used more frequently.   

But you also know from your own experience that there's a difference between what you get with Schoeps and CM3s.  There's also a big difference in what you get if someone knocks over a mic stand the odds of which seem to increase dramatically if there's a Schoeps on the stand, but I doubt the school district is going to fund them anyway.   

[voltronic]

Recording will make plain to anyone who will listen where things aren't going well in a choir.  Used inappropriately, it can be crushing. Used appropriately, it can be a valuable teaching tool and I am surprised that it isn't used more frequently.   

But you also know from your own experience that there's a difference between what you get with Schoeps and CM3s.  There's also a big difference in what you get if someone knocks over a mic stand the odds of which seem to increase dramatically if there's a Schoeps on the stand, but I doubt the school district is going to fund them anyway.

I've never been able to personally compare apples-to-apples; that is, Line Audio CM3 vs. Schoeps MK21.  The only Schoeps setup I use is MK4/MK8 MS, and that's a totally thing so there's no sense comparing.  In any case, I think the CM3s hold their own quite well.  Judging from mine and others' recordings, I can't say the Schoeps retrieve gobs more detail.  Check out the CM3 / MK21 shootout I linked at the beginning of the Team Line Audio thread if you haven't heard it yet.

[voltronic]

Just wanted to check in and say thanks to everyone here who offered recommendations.  My session was very well-received.  The list of mics I recommended was:

Behringer C-2
Samson C02
Line Audio CM3
Line Audio OM1
Naiant full line
Studio Projects C4
Rode NT5
Shure KSM-141
AKG C314 (brand new but uses same capsules as 414 so a safe bet)

Recommended Recorders:

Zoom H1
Sony PCM-M10
Tascam DR-40
Tascam DR-44WL
Tascam DR-70D
Zoom H6
Tascam DR-680
Zoom F8

I avoided listing products that I felt were redundant and/or provided similar functionality or performance at a higher price (ex. Roland R-44, no disrespect to a great recorder).

I also tried to recommend portable phantom-capable preamps, but there are very few battery options left.  I only listed the MixPre/FP24 and MixPre-D.  Most people there would go with the built-in preamps anyway.

[Nick's Picks]

for under $200 you can get a superlux s502 ORTF stereo mic, a pair of M-Audio Pulsar II's (nice mics, btw)...