Topic: How to best use the Sony ECM-717 mic (and/or user's experiences)...?

[mysterymadman]

Hi,

I'm a newbie to bootlegging in general (so far I only taped one major show, being Depeche Mode), and to this forum too. I hope my questions are not stupid, offensive or somehow in conflict with the rules of this board...

Here's the situation: In a few weeks time I intend to tape Iron Maiden indoors using a Sony MZ-R50 MD with an ECM-717 microphone, and I have yet to perfect the recording quality of that linage. 

Firstly, I have performed some tests with this combination, and there is a (seemingly) weird thing: when putting a (fresh new) battery in the mic, and switching it on, the LED flashes once (for a tiny fraction of a second) and then stays off. This seems weird to me. Can anyone tell me whether this normal?

Sony doesn't officially show the manual online anymore, but after some trial and error trying to change some of their documentation base URLs, I found the manual at: http://www.docs.sony.com/release/ECM717.PDF

However, I find the manual somewhat unclear regarding the LED status (in one place it mentions: "The red lamp (sic!) on the microphone will flash", and in a different location it says: "The red lamp (sic!) lights up dimly or goes out when the battery is weak.")...
I find this contradicting; is the battery supposed to only flash once, or stay on?!? 

Secondly, on another seemingly weird note, the recorder's manual (see page 12 of: http://www.docs.sony.com/release/MZR50.PDF) mentions that the mic should be plugged into the "MIC (PLUG IN POWER)" hole. All swell, but again, according to the above mentioned mic manual, the mic should then be switched to off (and hence should use the recorder's power, instead of the battery's one)...
Is this indeed the preferred setting, or are there better options?

Finally, I hope someone who has experience with this particular mic (and/or recorder) can give me some pointers for getting the best performance out of it. In particular, during some of the indoor tests of practice rehearsals of a rock band playing loud in a classroom, with the ECM-717 equipped with a battery, and the mic switched to "on" and with the levels set (manually) to the bare minimum, I still get heavy clipping. This is the case when the recorder itself is set to "high mic sensitivity", and I hope to be able to try it with low sensitivity tonight (or next week). I wonder about one thing though: would it be better to use the mic without the battery and the recorder set to high sensitivity, or to use the mic with battery and set the recorder to low sensitivity?
Intuitively I would guess the latter to be the best, but is that really the case or not?
Anyone?

Your help will be very much appreciated! 

Cheers!
MM

PS: For those of you who want to hear a worst-case sample of just how bad the clipping can get in those circumstances, you might want to check: http://www.millennics.com/test/bad_sound_quality.wav
Don't be startled though; this poor quality surely can be improved on heavily.

[Brian Skalinder]

I'm a newbie to bootlegging

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=1152.0

[mysterymadman]

O.k., point taken...

In that case I'm a taper instead of a bootlegger, as I am NOT making any money of it. 

Cheers!
MM

[yousef]

The ECM-717 was my first mic and I made some very fine and also some very underwhelming recordings with it...

It is normal for the light to flash for just a split second when you turn it on ie it doesn't remain on all the time the mic is powered.

Use the battery and plug the mic into the line-in socket on your recorder. I found with both my old minidisk and my D8 that you can safely set the recording level to full without any risk of clipping, even at really loud gigs. ymmv, obviously.

The nicest recordings I made with the 717 were quieter, acoustic gigs - these can come out sounding quite crisp and clear but with a slightly boxy character that you don't notice at first but which becomes progressively more annoying.

Louder, fuller sounding gigs, especially in bigger venues (ie 1000+ capacity), tend to sound rather woolly and the vocals seem to get lost very easily. That said, the results can be very acceptable - eg http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=106154

As a rule of thumb I'd say clip it as high up on your body as possible and get as near to a speaker stack as you can. And then hope for the best.

The ECM-717 isn't a spectacular mic but, for the money, it's a great way to get into taping and you'll make enough *quite* good sounding tapes to get you hooked and eager to upgrade to something else.

And that's what it's all about, I reckon.

[Gawain]

+T for the .pdf link!

and yes, go line-in always, at least in small venues you can get good tapes with it.

[Brian Skalinder]

Thanks for the manual PDF.  Added to the TS Reference archive in case the Sony link disappears:

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=74907.0

[mysterymadman]

Hiya,

Brian: you're welcome for the PDF; I'm glad I could contribute something useful here. 

Others: thanks for your tips so far, they have already been very helpful!
Some further questions/remarks:
-Good to know the LED behaviour is correct; that one had me wondering...
-I had heard about the trick of using it in the "line in" jack, and I *think* I tried that once and (again, I *think*, I) didn't see the sound levels indicators respond then and hence figured that that method did not work (I may be mistaken though, so I'll definitely try that again).
Am I to understand then, that when using the battery and plugging the mic into the "line in" jack, that the recording levels do not even have to be set manually, and the MD can be set to 'high mic sensitivity' too? Also, should the level indicators respond, or do these only respond when using the "mic" jack?
Perhaps someone can answer this off-hand, as that type of usage sounds like the best way to go then, and it would be great if the recorder doesn't have to be set to a manual recording level, but rather picks the optimum itself. 
-Regarding the general quality of the recordings: I do not go to many shows, and my budget is not so big for this. I was glad my father lent me
the MZ-R50 + ECM-717, so indeed that seems to be a good start. If, in the future, I get hooked to taping (it certainly was fun to tape DM and then master the recordings!), I may take a look at a better mic and a (2nd handed) portable DAT recorder, or some type of small HD recorder.

Thanks again, and hopefully someone can fill in the remaining blanks for me!
MM

PS: Yesterday evening I did attend another practice rehearsal of our daughter's pop-rock band. She was ill herself, but I went anyway in order to try out the recorder. 
I had it set to 'low mic sensitivity' on the recorder, mic plugged into the "mic" socket (with power), battery not turned on, and the levels set manually. The sound was pretty decent already and it didn't get clipped. The worst factor of the recording was not caused by the recording equipment, but rather by the ever too loud drums for such a small practice room. The balance between the guitars, bass, and vocals (back-up singer) on the one hand, and the drums on the other hand, was completely off, with the drums (especially the snare) totally overpowering everything, and causing volume peaks each time it was hit, that were twice as high as the overall volume (which shows very clearly in Audacitiy when sampling it). Nasty. Hopefully that balance will be much better adjusted at the concert itself...

[yousef]

I may be wrong but I think the mic-sensivity switch will only apply to the mic-in input.

The level indicators should still respond when going line-in but they are likely to be quite a bit lower than with the mic input. Make sure you remember to switch the mic on though!

I'd avoid using the automatic recording level control in general - you'll end up with annoying drops in volume every time the band kicks in... Better to experiment with the manual control and find what works best. But like I say, you should be safe with just turning it up to full.

Yousef

[mysterymadman]

Hi,

Thanks for your answers!

I may be wrong but I think the mic-sensivity switch will only apply to the mic-in input.

Hmmm, good point, that does make sense, indeed. 

I'd avoid using the automatic recording level control in general - you'll end up with annoying drops in volume every time the band kicks in... Better to experiment with the manual control and find what works best. But like I say, you should be safe with just turning it up to full.

Tnx!
I'll definitely give the following a go: battery powered mic, plugged into the "line in" jack, manual recording levels, set to the max.
Cool. I'll let you guys know how I get along with that...

Cheers,
MM

[Gawain]

I'll definitely give the following a go: battery powered mic, plugged into the "line in" jack, manual recording levels, set to the max.
Cool. I'll let you guys know how I get along with that...

I'd not go with the levels set to the maximum, maybe at 3/4 of it...better get a bit lower sound and normalize later than go home with a distorted tape...The 717 can handle big SPL's but maybe Iron Maiden is a bit too much...
That is what I would do, but this is a question of trial and error, just try all configs in upcoming shows and keep the best for you :=)

[mysterymadman]

Hi again,

Quite unexpectedly so, I yesterday got an opportunity to test it, as when riding my bicycle home through the city centre, I noticed a big stage had been set-up, and some Dutch (televised) kinda Schlager-like festival (don't laugh! ) had been planned.
Due to other obligations, I could only make it to the final 3 songs of the event, just to give it a go. I'm glad I did; not for the music, but I did notice something seemingly odd.

I tried the following: switching the mic to on (i.e. using battery power), then putting it in the line-in, setting the levels manually to the max, and move right next to a speaker stand, with the mic pointing towards the speakers (FWIW: the recorder was set to high mic sensitivity, but as mentioned by Yousef, that probably is not of relevance when using the line-in jack).

Indeed the recorder picked up the sound, however, the level indicators (which feature a scale from 0-10) never made it any further than the 3rd bar, which is ridiculously low, especially considering the fact that I was standing right next to a speaker stand (about 1.5 meters away from it), and I was close enough to it, to feel the sound pounding on my body. Maybe it wasn't quite as loud as an Iron Maiden show, but the volume should not be off by such a big margin either, I think. 

Not surprisingly so, when sampling it (with Audacity), the spectrum initially showed almost a flat line. Even when cranking up the "line in" volume setting, both from Windows as well as Audacity, the volume still stayed very low.
When listening back to it, and cranking up the volume, the sound quality didn't seem to be bad (the computer's speakers are though, so I'll have to try this on better speakers), but it may require lots of digital pumping up of the volume in order to get a decent sound level. I tried this on a small piece, and the sound then started to 'crackle'. 

I strongly doubt this is as it should be. When using the recorder's powered "mic in" jack (with the mic's battery off), the recorder is very sensitive, and quite the opposite is the case: the levels have to be brought done substantially in order for the sound not to blast off the scale. For a brief moment I suspected the battery (though it is still virtually brand new, and of the correct (recommended) LR44 type). I just checked that using a multimeter, and it measures out at 1548 mV, i.o.w., nicely (slightly) just above 1.5V; no issues there....

Does anyone else who has tried this method of recording experience the same low input volume, or could it be that the battery's power supply to the mic's pre-amp (that's what it's called, right?) is not working properly? 

I'm hoping you guys can help me out once more, as it doesn't seem to be a good idea to record with such low levels (I'd strongly expect all dynamics to get lost then) and then digitally pump it up a lot...

Did any of you also experience such low levels with this recording method, or do the volume levels work properly for you guys?

Cheers!
MM

[mysterymadman]

Hi again,

Alright, an update to my own questions...

I just did some RTFM-ing on the specs of the recorder and the mic (for those of you interested: the links to both can be found in the start of this topic), and guess what? I think I've identified the culprit.

If you consider the recorder's (i.e. the MZ-R50) input's specs, you'll find (sic):
Microphone: stereo mini-jack, 0.22-0.78mV
Line in: stereo mini-jack, 69-194mV

Lo and behold: a tremendous difference in the voltage levels!

While the mic's specs don't mention any output voltage levels, it does mention the output impedance (being 1.5 kiloohm, +/- 30%). Annoyingly enough, the recorder's specs do not mention the input impedances. 

However... I ran my theory by two people who are better educated in the field of physics, and both pretty much confirmed my assumption: it seems that the mic would need an additional amplifier between the mic and the recorder's line-in.

Sooooo, I now strongly wonder about the reasons why people recommend using the line-in jack...

Can you please answer the following? :
1-Do the recorders you guys use have line-in jacks that are more sensitive (i.e., that fall within the 0.22-0.78mV range)? This wouldn't make much sense to me, as I guess it would then not work when using such a line in with e.g. a regular CD-player...
2-Do you guys use an additional pre-amplifier? If so: why? It would seem to me that using another pre-amplifier is asking for trouble, as that would mean "another element in the trajectory" between the mic and the recorder, with added cable length and an added connector, hence, added potential sources of interference....

Am I missing something here, or is perhaps the recorder's amplifier crap? Surely there must be a good reason why several tapers recommend using the line-in over the (powered) mic jacks, but at present I only see downsides of doing so...

Can anyone please shed a light on this? 

Cheers!
MM

[Bart.VL71]

- You should use "low sensitivity" for mic-in at loud shows. Use "high sensitivity" for acustic/a capella. That explains why your classroom rock show was clipped to hell.
- Youd don't need to use a separate battery in that mic. recorder power will suffice.
- Use the mic in if you don"t have a battery box/preamplifier. Mic in doesn't expect a pre-amplified signal. The recorder's preamp is then used to amplify the signal.
- Youc an use line in if you have a battery box/preamplifier. Line in requires pre-amplification in fact. That explains why your line in recording was so silent.

[mysterymadman]

Tnx for the answers!

I see my presumptions were right then: using the line-in does require an additional pre-amp on the mic's side...

Good, for the concert it looks like I'll be using the recorder's pre-amp then, by using the mic (powered) jack. As mentioned somewhere in one of my items in this topic, last Monday I found that way to work pretty well.

Final remaining question for now: is there any good reason not to opt using the recorder's pre-amp, but rather using an external pre-amp?

In itself, it seems to incur many downsides, such as:
-Additional equipment that has to be smuggled into the show
-Added cable length (clumsy, can cause sound deterioration, added risk of 'antenna effects', ...)
-An additional plug-jack connection (unless the set-up is 'hard-wired' by directly soldering the mic's outputs to the amp), being yet another risk factor for sound deterioration.

All of the above are unwelcome complications, and would seem to me to only introduce more risk of detection and/or sound deterioration. Yet, several tapers (also outside of this forum) have mentioned the usage of the line-in jack to be the preferred method, and I'm wondering why they prefer this method...

Am I missing something here (like the recorder's pre-amp perhaps being crappy, or so)

Cheers!
MM

[yousef]

I think people generally avoid the mic inputs on recorders because the pre-amps tend to be a bit noisy. If you're having to massively boost your line-in records though, this is probably a moot point.

On my old Sony MZ-R70 minidisk recorder, there was no 'mic sensitivity' option so plugging into the the mic-in at loud gigs meant that brickwalling was likely (and happened at pretty quiet gigs too). The fact that your machine has an attenuator option perhaps means that you will be able to go the mic-in route after all.

That said, when using the ECM-717 with my minidisk, I never needed *that* much extra gain in post... And when I used the mic with my D8 with the levels set to max, the meters were generally peaking around the -12dB mark at most gigs. Which I think is either desirable or conservative depending on which school of thought you subscribe to. And I never used a pre-amp with this mic.

Then again, the one and only time I used the ECM-717 and the mic-in on the D8, the recording came out fine too...

I guess at the end of the day you just have to  experiment and find what works best and sounds best to you.

[Liquid Drum]

Sorry to hijack but I have a small question...

I have Batt-Box and a Sony MZ-RH910.

If I go line-in I assume that it'll be quiet, BUT...

If I go Batt Box > Line-in will it be louder??

I have yet to test this all out (will do next week) but I'd like to know becasue I had to boost some of my recordings a while back (when I didnt have a batt box) and obviously its better to not have to boost it too much.

Cheers,
Simon.


P.S. oh by the way, I'm testing Chris's Church audio Cardioids with this set-up 

[Bart.VL71]

It will be much louder.

[mysterymadman]

Hiya all,

Well, live and learn, experiment and improve...

I did just that since I started this thread, and lo and behold: I think I've got it worked out to my satisfaction (yes, I realise that the actual show will have different sound conditions, so I'll still have to fiddle around with the levels etc., but at least the approach that tends to give best results for me is clear).

For the classroom rehearsals, I find the best results are obtained using the powered mic jack, with the recorder's sensitivity set to low and the levels manually set to the maximum. That way, the overall volume seems to be around the sixth bar (on a scale from 0-10, where 7 is about recommended), and only the drums tend to peak over that substantially. These, however, do not really seem to get clipped, and the dynamic range of the rest of the instruments sounds very pleasing to me.

Last Monday I have recorded the practice rehearsals again, and even in raw format they sound pretty good to me. I've sampled them into the PC using two strategies, being:
1) 'Soft' sampling (i.e. making sure all drum peaks fall just within the regular scale, and hence no clipping on the sampling side occurs). I applied Audacity's 'normalisation' filter to it, such that the end result is better evened out. Sounds pretty darn good to me. For a sample (check out the guitar player, and note that this is just an 18 year old kid!), check: http://www.millennics.com/test/ritfw_soft.tar.gz
2) 'Loud' sampling (i.e. making sure the overall volume is better spread over the regular scale, at the expense of several drum peaks falling out of it). I found this doesn't sound very clipped, and I applied a 'soft limiter' (i.e. Audacity's "compression" filter) to it. the judges are still out on which of the two works better, but I kinda prefer this one. For a sample, check: http://www.millennics.com/test/ritfw_hard.tar.gz

NOTE: both downloads are around 60MB in size, so if you have a slow connection, you may not want to download them...

Especially the latter shows a very nicely even balanced spectrum over all the frequencies in my stereo's spectrum analyser.

Now, I'm hoping that at the Iron Maiden show the drums are better in balance with the overall volume of the other instruments, such that the inbalance between the two of those is less than at these practice rehearsals. If so, and if we can get good recording spots, I have good hope that the recordings will be coming out pretty well...

Cheerz,
MM