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Author Topic: Running Omnis???  (Read 14883 times)

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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Running Omnis???
« Reply #30 on: October 23, 2007, 06:11:51 PM »
..In closed headphones, as i turn up the gain on the center omni, I get to a point where it really sounds natural to me.  When I dial too much of it into the mix, all the nice detail and presence that fixed that 'too-wide-hole-in-the-middle-2-spread-omni' sound is lost ----- stereo width goes away, and it sounds mid-rangey and kinda flat.  If i back it up 50% from there, I know it will sound right.  There's a pretty wide range where things sound right........and you hear right away when you've added too much...

Just what I was fishing for. Thx.  :)
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Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Evil Taper

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Re: Running Omnis???
« Reply #31 on: October 28, 2007, 01:42:22 AM »
All i'm saying is the configs and spacing blah blah blah is COMPLETELY DEPENDENT on what and where you're taping.  Yes omnis are going to sound better in different positions since their going to be picking up different sound waves but a difference of an inch or 2 or 3 is going to make very very very little difference.  When you point the mics AWAY from the sound source they'll be catching a little less direct sound since only one side of the mic is pointed directly at the sound source which can make a difference outdoors and at concerts sometimes.  For the most part though if the sound source is really loud it will make very little difference, the config that would make a difference is if the capsule was pointed away from the sound source so the capsules will record sound that's interacted with the mic bodies.  A true perfect omnidirectional pattern is non-directional.  Perfect is the key word.
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easy jim

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Re: Running Omnis???
« Reply #32 on: October 29, 2007, 02:56:32 PM »
Quote
Have heard some great sounding NAK tapes where people have used an omni between shotguns.

I've been dying for a chance to do this with my AKGs.

I have not tried an omni in the middle yet, but here is an example of 2x AKG c568eb (short shotguns) + 1x c414b-xls/st (wide-cardioid, center mic): http://www.archive.org/details/cj2007-07-17.akg568-414.flac16

Offline Arni99

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Re: Running Omnis???
« Reply #33 on: November 13, 2007, 02:37:36 PM »
http://www.mediafire.com/?42dm1kdoxyx

my mp3-sample from yesterday using the following setup:
source: DPA 4061 mics/SP-SPSB-9(12 Volt) battery box/Sony MZ-RH1 HI-MD on line-in at level 28 of 30/HI-SP (256kbit/s ATRAC3+)
« Last Edit: November 13, 2007, 02:42:11 PM by Arni99 »
1st: SONY PCM-M10 + DPA 4060's + DPA MPS 6030 power supply (microdot)
2nd: iPhone 5 + "Rode iXY" microphone/"Zoom IQ5" microphone

Offline boojum

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Re: Running Omnis???
« Reply #34 on: November 13, 2007, 04:56:53 PM »
The Michael Williams article on Stereophonic Zoom covers angles and spacing for both card and omni.  The article is in the AES library but available free here: http://www.rycote.com/products/pdf/The%20Stereophonic%20Zoom.pdf

I have saved the settings for both card and omni in my little PalmPilot which I take with me to sessions now.  It is a valuable read and I can only suggest others read it to eliminate guesswork in setting up mics.  As usual, YMMV.

Cheers


edit: spelling
« Last Edit: November 15, 2007, 01:30:24 PM by boojum »
Nov schmoz kapop.

Offline badronald

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Re: Running Omnis???
« Reply #35 on: November 15, 2007, 12:27:41 AM »
The Michael Williams article on Stereophonic Zoom covers angles and spacing for both card and omni.  The article is in the AES library but available free here: http://www.rycote.com/products/pdf/The%20Stereophonic%20Zoom.pdf


Awesome - thanks for the link boojum.  I'm just getting started & was looking for something like this.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Running Omnis???
« Reply #36 on: November 15, 2007, 10:57:05 AM »
The Michael Williams article on Stereophonic Zoom covers angles and spacing for both card and omni.  The article is in the AES library but available free here: http://www.rycote.com/products/pdf/The%20Stereophonic%20Zoom.pdf


Awesome - thanks for the link boojum.  I'm just getting started & was looking for something like this.

That's a great resource that I use as well, I will say though that reducing the angular distortion of the resulting stereo image (what the article above adresses) is much lower on my list of priorities for a good recording than other things such as:
1) overall frequency balance
2) reduction of anoying echoes & room modes
3) direct to reverberant sound ratio
4) clarity & intelligibility

That's especially true with AUD amplified PA recordings.  If you can listen with phones or in-ears to the house music while setting up or during an opener, you'll be able to dial in the right 'sound' that incorporates all of the above. Tweak your omni spacing this way by ear and if possible, by moving your whole rig around and you'll have a much better change of bagging a killer sound.


musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline boojum

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Re: Running Omnis???
« Reply #37 on: November 15, 2007, 01:33:52 PM »
The Stereo Zoom technique will get you really close to what you want.  With luck, one more tweak and you are done.  What is important is that you get the angles and spacing right away.  It is easily reproduceble.  That is a real time saver in the field.  Ah lak it.  :)
Nov schmoz kapop.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Running Omnis???
« Reply #38 on: November 15, 2007, 05:02:55 PM »
boojum, are you using the method primarily with directional mics, omnis, both?

When I came across this last year, I was daydeaming up an adjustable bar with a linkage that adjusted the mic angle as the spread was changed.. potentially with a different starting setting for various mic patterns.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Running Omnis???
« Reply #39 on: November 15, 2007, 05:19:05 PM »
One observation I've made is that a closer spaced omni's seem to emphasize the treble, wider spacings the bass, probably due to where in the frequency spectrum the comb filtering comes into play.

Another observation is that different spacings greatly effect how the recording decodes with matrix type surround decoders like Dolby PLIIx (and pretty much any surround decoder that is not a discrete digital format) that send signal to the surrounds based on the phase rotation between the left and right channels.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

stirinthesauce

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Re: Running Omnis???
« Reply #40 on: November 15, 2007, 07:09:44 PM »

 Running the mics at 180 isn't going to do anything for omnis besides distancing the capsules since they have a spherical pickup pattern. 

actually it is.  17cm spacing with caps at 180 degrees is a legitimate A-B stereo technique.  I had Michael Hartkopf's page saved in my favorites that describes this exact spacing (along with all the varying A-B degree of angles based on capsule spacing) but alas, his page has been down for the last few months.  Anyways, omnis are directional in the higher frequency range and this method, also known as healy method by tapers, will provide stereo seperation.  As the spacing between the capsules becomes further apart, the angle between the capsules will get less.





my .002 worth a .000001  :)



ahhhhhhhh, thank you archive.org's wayback machine.  This page is an invaluable resource.

http://web.archive.org/web/20050314085929/members.aol.com/mihartkopf/lexicon.htm



AB Stereo Setup
A setup to record whole ensembles. It uses two omnidirectional microphones, which have a distance from each other. Only the runtime difference between the two mics indicates the position in the stereo image. Runtime difference always means phase difference too. Therefore it is not allowed to convert an AB stereo recording to mono because phase cancellation will cause comb filter effects which will shift through the whole audio spectra. You can bet that this will cause bad sound. AB is prone to over-emphasize the stereo width. To avoid this, you should 1.) be sure that the distance among the mics is smaller than the distance of the source and 2.) the sound source is completely within the recording angle shown in the table below. The table bases on the geometric calculation that when a natural left ear sound from straight left, it takes 17 cm at the speed of sound to reach the right ear. In this distance, the recording angle is 180 degrees. For a larger mic distance the angle is smaller to ensure being inside the "17 cm at the speed of sound" border. It is just a trigonometric calculation that created the table.
Mic distance (cm) Recording angle (degrees)
17 180.0
20 116.4
25 85.7
30 69.0
35 58.1
40 50.3
45 44.4
50 39.8
60 32.9
70 28.1
80 24.5
90 21.8
100 19.6
 Please observe the demandment that distance among the microphones and the corresponding recording angle, and the distance of the sound source from the mics and the corresponding amount of reverb harmonize with each other. Further observe the rule that the mics have to be inside the radius of reverb.

here is his archived page with tons mic info, alot on lesser known or out of production mics. 
http://web.archive.org/web/20050406223334/members.aol.com/mihartkopf/index.htm
 
« Last Edit: November 15, 2007, 07:58:43 PM by stirinthesauce »

Offline Will_S

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Re: Running Omnis???
« Reply #41 on: November 15, 2007, 09:28:40 PM »
But recording angle and the angle between mics are two different things.  Unless I'm badly mistaken, Hartkopf is referring to the angle subtended by the sound sources as viewed from the recording location rather than the angle between the mics.

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,93945.msg1252605.html#msg1252605

Edit:  which is not to say that omnis don't have some directionality at high frequencies, or that the Healy method isn't an established technique.  Just that the table above doesn't say what angle to point your mics based on how far apart they are, rather it says how widely you should space the mics if you want sources separated by x° to spread from one speaker to the other upon playback.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2007, 09:36:08 PM by Will_S »

stirinthesauce

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Re: Running Omnis???
« Reply #42 on: November 15, 2007, 11:02:53 PM »
But recording angle and the angle between mics are two different things.  Unless I'm badly mistaken, Hartkopf is referring to the angle subtended by the sound sources as viewed from the recording location rather than the angle between the mics.

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,93945.msg1252605.html#msg1252605

Edit:  which is not to say that omnis don't have some directionality at high frequencies, or that the Healy method isn't an established technique.  Just that the table above doesn't say what angle to point your mics based on how far apart they are, rather it says how widely you should space the mics if you want sources separated by x° to spread from one speaker to the other upon playback.

 ???

must be the long week and my feeble mind but I'm not quite following.  We are talking about stereophonic recording techniques, correct?

Quote
be sure that the distance among the mics is smaller than the distance of the source and 2.) the sound source is completely within the recording angle shown in the table below. The table bases on the geometric calculation that when a natural left ear sound from straight left, it takes 17 cm at the speed of sound to reach the right ear. In this distance, the recording angle is 180 degrees. For a larger mic distance the angle is smaller to ensure being inside the "17 cm at the speed of sound" border. It is just a trigonometric calculation that created the table.

Quote
Please observe the demandment that distance among the microphones and the corresponding recording angle, and the distance of the sound source from the mics and the corresponding amount of reverb harmonize with each other. Further observe the rule that the mics have to be inside the radius of reverb.

Quote
This results in a small loss of trebles. So you have to decide whether you want to use the mic in a distance from the sound source (where is more reverb than direct sound) - e.g. as ambience mic - or inside the radius of reverb, where there is more direct sound than reverb. Diffuse field equalization results in a bit of treble boost. For distant miking, you have to select a diffuse-field equalized omni microphone, and for close miking (including AB setups, OSS/Jecklin discs, MS setups) the correct selection is a free-field equalized omni microphone. However, in fact, the more distant to the sound source, the more treble boost the mic may have.

copied from the above links
« Last Edit: November 15, 2007, 11:07:54 PM by stirinthesauce »

Offline Will_S

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Re: Running Omnis???
« Reply #43 on: November 16, 2007, 12:51:06 AM »
We are talking about stereophonic recording techniques, correct?

Yes.  Maybe someone else can explain this better than I can, for instance what DSatz says in the post I linked to:

The confusion, I think, is between two angles which have a cause-and-effect relationship, but aren't the same thing:

(a) the physical angle between the main axes of a pair of microphones, and

(b) the arc of sound from the original venue which they cover (specified as an angle).

The second of these is what Prof. Williams calls the "stereophonic recording angle," and in general, the wider you make (a), the narrower (b) will be and vice versa. That's the big paradox that I referred to earlier.

Most people assume that the wider they spread their microphones, the wider an arc they will cover. It's as obvious as the observation that the Sun revolves around the Earth ... and just as wrong. The arc that you cover with a stereo pair of microphones (coincident or closely spaced directional microphones, anyway) corresponds more or less to the area of overlap between their polar patterns. The wider you spread them apart, the smaller this area of overlap will be, and thus the narrower the angle of stereo coverage will be.

Whenever a direct sound source is picked up exclusively (or nearly so) by just one of the two microphones, it will appear to come from the location of the corresponding loudspeaker during playback. Usually you only want (at most) the very farthest extreme sound sources to be reproduced that way; often it's preferable for not even the most extreme left and right sound sources seem to come from the location of either loudspeaker. You don't want to "advertise" the loudspeaker's exact position, because stereo sound is an illusion and an auditory awareness of the loudspeaker position tends to spoil that illusion.

You want (this being an esthetic convention, i.e. something subjective that is nonetheless advisable because it's the generally accepted paradigm) the direct sound to be spread across "an appropriate amount" of the space between the loudspeakers, depending on how wide the original direct sound source was. A solo piccolo shouldn't fill the entire soundstage width, and actually neither should a solo piano, even if it's one of those huge, long Bösendorfer concert grands. Your choice of the microphone patterns and geometry (angle and distance between mikes, and distance from mikes to sound sources) determines the audibly "apparent" width (what the Germans call the "stereo basis width") that will be produced later over loudspeakers.

--best regards

But note that DSatz is talking about a pair of directional mics, whereas we are talking about omnis.  But the basic point is the same--the stereo recording angle is not the same thing as the physical angle between the mics.

Imagine you are standing at the apex of an equilateral triangle with a guitar player at the corner of the triangle to your left and a banjo player to the right.  From your position, they describe an angle of 60°.  If you record them using a pair of cardioid mics, but place the mics facing directly ahead and directly on top of them, when you play back the recording both instruments will be equally loud in both speakers, with a mono recording the result.

Now say you keep the mics conincident but widen the physical angle between the mics to 90°.  At this point, the guitar will be louder in the left mic, but still picked up quite a bit by the right mic.  And when you play back this recording, it will image with the guitar to the left and the banjo to the right, but their images will not be spread all the way between the two speakers, instead the guitar will image a bit left of center and the banjo a bit right of center.  This is because the stereo recording angle of cards XY 90° is 180° - sources need to be spread all the way over 180° as seen from the recording position to have their image spread all the way between the two speakers.  As you increase the physical angle between the mics (say, to 135°) the stereo recording angle actually decreases - that is, sound sources don't need to be a full 180° apart to image hard left / hard right.

I believe the reference you sited is also referring to stereo recording angle in this sense.  For ideal omnis, changing the angle between mics won't really affect loudness for sounds coming from the right vs. the left.  All the stereo cues from omni recordings (without a baffle adding directionality, and aside from some directionality in high frequency content) come from timing differences due to the sound hitting one mic before the other.  The further apart the mics are, the bigger the timing difference for the arrival of sounds coming from off axis.  Thus, the farther apart the mics, the smaller angle (in reality) between sound sources needed to produce the same perceived angle between the sound sources on playback.  Thus stereo recording angle decreases as the distance between mics increases.

stirinthesauce

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Re: Running Omnis???
« Reply #44 on: November 16, 2007, 12:55:56 AM »


I believe the reference you sited is also referring to stereo recording angle in this sense.  For ideal omnis, changing the angle between mics won't really affect loudness for sounds coming from the right vs. the left.  All the stereo cues from omni recordings (without a baffle adding directionality, and aside from some directionality in high frequency content) come from timing differences due to the sound hitting one mic before the other.  The further apart the mics are, the bigger the timing difference for the arrival of sounds coming from off axis.  Thus, the farther apart the mics, the smaller angle (in reality) between sound sources needed to produce the same perceived angle between the sound sources on playback.  Thus stereo recording angle decreases as the distance between mics increases.

Exactly! That is what I was talking about.  We are on the same page, maybe it was me who was not clear  :)

 

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