Topic: Don't Judge A Book By Its Cover (Microphones)

[Javier Cinakowski]

These companies found a similar shell, but who has the best parts?

Next question on my mind is:      Are the capsules from each company compatible with bodies of another brand?   Could a Peluso capsule be used with a Charter Oak body?

(no one has had the pleasure of working with the Busman Microphones, but, they have the best paint job, so they made the survey!)

[Teen Wolf Blitzer]

The only difference I would think is all the other Peluso's and Charter Oak's are pricey while the others aren't so much. (although Busman hasn't offered another model yet) so I'd imagine they are different than the Avantones and Busmans.  Hmmm.  Also the Busmans and Avantones are the same body and the Peluso's and Charter Oaks are the same. 

[Shawn]

is anyone here using charter oak mics? I'd love to hear some samples of ambient recordings done with them.

[Teen Wolf Blitzer]

yet another.  Trippy.

http://www.sontronics.com/stc1s.htm

[Javier Cinakowski]

These look slightly different

[bensyverson]

Don't forget the CAD GXL1200, which is the same body as the Avant and Busman but without the pad and rolloff:


All three seem to be based on this mic:


The caps seem to be interchangeable among all of them. They're also available from the factory like this:


Personally, the Busman seems like the most promising -- of the three (Avant, Busman, CAD), only Busman modifies the electronics to improve the sound.

I do have one of the CAD mics, and I have to say, it's pretty nice. If the Busman set is an improvement, I'll be very pleased!

[bgalizio]

Are we supposed to vote based on looks or the sound? If sound, I find it very surprising that the Busman mics are currently tied with the Pelusos. As far as I know, no Busman samples "from the wild" have been released. Granted, they sound good through Chris's stereo test. Can't wait to hear some tapes made with them!

If we're voting on looks, then it's a different story.

[Krispy D]

the peluso gets my vote because it is the only one I have played with personally.

[oleg]

the same as peluso and charter  here in israel with 6 capsules( 2 hypers, 2 cards, 2 omni) - 400usd
no name , but its what make it cheaper - exctly same as sontronics  cpme from FEILO FACTORY , pne of the chinese best
i have apair i use it  for low budget jobs

http://sellbuyexchange-film-videoaudiogear.googlegroups.com/web/chiniz%20mics.zip?gda=4M8OsEAAAAC2Af0jwr3gSIsbfAS5RmpbR9m_pM1Avnrr04GtnNP7d2G1qiJ7UbTIup-M2XPURDR7FpGzTfhqSSB-jigbkFoI

[Javier Cinakowski]

Damn, I like the black, thanks Oleg...

[illconditioned]

Interesting threads.

OK, if any of you are so inclined, I'd like to see pics of the internals (guts!) of these mics.  I'm most curious about the Peluso.  In particular, are they the simple (Scheops) design, or something more complex, with an internal DC-DC converter.

Thanks,
  Richard

[rokpunk]

That CAD mic above.......I wouldn't use that thing to hammer in nails.
I bought into a CAD promotion last year and ended up with a dozen of these mics....I ended up paying somewhere around $10/ea for them, which is about $8 a piece more than they are worth. I sell them to churches who are poor and can't afford a decent condenser.

[oleg]

Damn, I like the black, thanks Oleg...

435 incl shipping to usa

sounds pretty good for what they worth (that's why peluso and charter use them )and frankly i only could imagine that the quality control what matter for the price , i checked with local distributor and he told me that the returns from musicians where under 5% , so there is some satisfaction from these .
one thing , these mics dont behave well with sd preamps -exactly the same behaivier as with blue lines and some sankens which makes the pre go to motor-boating ( known sd problem _ , so you will need use external ph suply or cut the low end ( 80 hz on mixers or 40 on 7xx)
no problem use any other as sqn , wendt , fostex , hhb a@h ( these i checked personally)and many others
the cards  and omni sounds the best , the hypers  quit good but... ( good for voice recordings)
there is  bump in 500hz range - so a bit affecting, not something you cant fix in the post or during the eq

[drewloo]

Damn, I like the black, thanks Oleg...

435 incl shipping to usa

sounds pretty good for what they worth (that's why peluso and charter use them )and frankly i only could imagine that the quality control what matter for the price , i checked with local distributor and he told me that the returns from musicians where under 5% , so there is some satisfaction from these .
one thing , these mics dont behave well with sd preamps -exactly the same behaivier as with blue lines and some sankens which makes the pre go to motor-boating ( known sd problem _ , so you will need use external ph suply or cut the low end ( 80 hz on mixers or 40 on 7xx)
no problem use any other as sqn , wendt , fostex , hhb a@h ( these i checked personally)and many others
the cards  and omni sounds the best , the hypers  quit good but... ( good for voice recordings)
there is  bump in 500hz range - so a bit affecting, not something you cant fix in the post or during the eq

I've experienced the motorblading w/ Pelusos > sd mp-2, but only just messing around at home w/ the gain up waaaay high.  It's never been as issue when recording shows (although I'm sure it could be given the right circumstances).

[oleg]

the gain is always high if you recording classical music or dialog - not really a mike problem  but the sd design

[Chilly Brioschi]

FWIW, motorboating is "just" low-frequency feedback.
Instead of a squeal, you get a buzzy, poppy sound at regular intervals that sounds a bit like the "putt-putt" of an small outboard boat engine.
So the problem usually is coupling between amp stages, or more to the point, a lack of adequate decoupling.

Busman, Fred W III, ...someone.... help me out on this.... could it be that the FET amp in the mic isn't properly decoupled from input of the Pre? 

[bensyverson]

OK, if any of you are so inclined, I'd like to see pics of the internals (guts!) of these mics.

Okay, I'll bite. here are shots of the CAD. My hunch is that the Avant internals are largely the same, except with a bit of extra electronics for the pad and cut filters. Anyone care to open theirs up?









I'm anxious to see what Chris has done to the internals of his Busman mics as well...

BTW, anyone interested in Chinese mics marketed in the US should read this extremely hilarious thread on GS, in which the marketing dudes for Karma and sE Electronics get into a very public tiff: 

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-much-gear-so-little-time/59987-se-mics-karma-mics.html

[illconditioned]

^^^ Thanks for the great pics!!!

Waiting for the Pelusos, if anyone is able.

  Richard

[Javier Cinakowski]

That karma vs Se electronics is crazy!

Here is the Karma K10:

[illconditioned]

Keep 'em coming!  I don't judge a mic by the cover, I judge it by the guts!  Excellent...

   Richard

[bensyverson]

Anyone with some EE experience care to comment? Chris/Busman?

[illconditioned]

Anyone with some EE experience care to comment? Chris/Busman?

Comment about what?  The Karma vs CAD mics?  The Karma looks a little suspicious.  I don't mind a transformer, but I don't trust a lowend mic to have a good one.  Also, shouldn't that transformer be inside a case?  I've seen pictures of the guts of Beyerdynamic, for example, and those have a round metal case around the transformer.  Also, the Karma just looks "cheap".  Surface mount parts on the board, all electrolytic caps, thin pin to the capsule, etc.  The CAD mic looks like the standard (very old) Scheops design.  Basically a pair of (matched) transistors driving a balanced output.  Components on the CAD look a little better.  Similar to the Apex/MXL/etc mics of the same type.

I think the main question is the caps, though.  Hard to tell quality on those.  I'm not keen to taking them apart either...

  Richard

[bensyverson]

I think the main question is the caps, though.  Hard to tell quality on those.  I'm not keen to taking them apart either...

+T on that post! I'm not knowledgeable enough to see anything but a circuitboard with some components, so it's interesting to get the opinion of someone with experience.

I wonder if swapping the caps out on the CAD might be worthwhile... They're only $44 new on eBay, so it might be worth the risk (my soldering skills are pretty terrible)!

[illconditioned]

I think the main question is the caps, though.  Hard to tell quality on those.  I'm not keen to taking them apart either...

+T on that post! I'm not knowledgeable enough to see anything but a circuitboard with some components, so it's interesting to get the opinion of someone with experience.

I wonder if swapping the caps out on the CAD might be worthwhile... They're only $44 new on eBay, so it might be worth the risk (my soldering skills are pretty terrible)!

When I said "caps" I meant capsules.  That is where the quality comes from I would say.  But I don't want to disassemble these...

The CAD mics have pretty good parts (from the picture, anyways).  Nothing obvious to fix there.  Some people might are that different capacitors are needed in this place or that, but I really don't expect that to make much difference.  One thing I *might* consider is those 1G resistors, and the FET.  *Maybe* worth replacing with metal film.  I don't know.  But probably not needed.

  Richard

[bensyverson]

D'oh! Of course, the caps. The FET and resistors look sort of sketchy to you?

[illconditioned]

D'oh! Of course, the caps. The FET and resistors look sort of sketchy to you?

The resistors look sketchy.  The FET, I would have to get the part #.  They all look the same.

That said, I don't think there would be much difference with replacement.  Maybe a slight reduction in self-noise.  But not change in sound, I expect.

  Richard

[bensyverson]

Interesting... thanks Richard!

[Javier Cinakowski]

I noticed that the Karma's distort slightly with really loud bass (think Phil Lesh Bombs)...  Do you think that is due to the transformer?

[illconditioned]

I noticed that the Karma's distort slightly with really loud bass (think Phil Lesh Bombs)...  Do you think that is due to the transformer?

Yeah, probably due to the tranformer.

An interesting hack would be to put an Audio Technica transformer in there.  But really, I wouldn't bother.  Is there a low-cut switch?  Use that when recording bass-heavy shows.  Most shows have too much bass anyways, so low-cut is not a disadvantage.

  Richard

[Javier Cinakowski]

This is no hpf switch, but I only had the bass distort on a outrageously loud show.

I just took the other mic apart of the pair and the boards are a different color and there is a different part near the capsule pin.  That is strange considering they are supposed to be a match pair.....

[Busman Audio]

The FET in the CAD, Avantone, and mine are the sk170BL, well mine have the BL which is the lower noise model.

As I stated about mine before and this is true of most. A lot of the mics come from the same initial manufacturer. We can provide different design specs to the manufacturer to get what we want in the circuitry. Personally I prefer to go through the mics myself so I know the quality of the solder and so I get the exact components I want.
When I requested specific capacitors they wanted me to send some so they could test them. That made me just think it is better for me and my product to do the work myself. It is also what separates my mics from the others. Not that the others are bad but definitely different sound and quality.

The Karma10 mics are from a separate manufacturer and use SMD components.

All of these use the cheapest components possible to achieve the price they want. Again this is where I differ. I want to provide quality and price which CAN be done.



One other thing is that the transformer does not need to be in a casing. Even my KM84i which are regarded as some of the best SD mics made do not have casing over the transformers.

[bensyverson]

FYI, here is a shot of the FET from the CAD... the numbering reads:
K170
BL 6E

[bensyverson]

Come on Peluso owners... Open em up. 

[bensyverson]

A company in Europe using the same base mic:


http://www.microphonedeals.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=26

[DSatz]

Well, sure--I mean, what do people imagine? The manufacturer would gladly put your name on them, too, if you'd just buy 100 or more, pay cash up front, and not try to return any for reasons of poor quality control.

I suppose it's an open secret that some people organize private "group buys" from these same manufacturers. For a lark, I was in on one that very nearly went through this past year, but fell apart at the last minute; the same Chinese-made stereo ribbon microphone that is widely sold for $600 under a semi-respectable brand name was going to cost us each around $230, shipping included.

You may think that these microphones are quite a bargain, in other words--but you ain't seen nothin' until you realize what kind of bargain they must be for the dozens of companies who are selling them to you with their name on them.

--best regards

[illconditioned]

Well, sure--I mean, what do people imagine? The manufacturer would gladly put your name on them, too, if you'd just buy 100 or more, pay cash up front, and not try to return any for reasons of poor quality control.

I suppose it's an open secret that some people organize private "group buys" from these same manufacturers. For a lark, I was in on one that very nearly went through this past year, but fell apart at the last minute; the same Chinese-made stereo ribbon microphone that is widely sold for $600 under a semi-respectable brand name was going to cost us each around $230, shipping included.

You may think that these microphones are quite a bargain, in other words--but you ain't seen nothin' until you realize what kind of bargain they must be for the dozens of companies who are selling them to you with their name on them.

--best regards

Yep, I was in not one, but two group buys of electret capsules from China.  It turns out that none of them were great for music, but I found one that was *excellent* for voice or sound effects, etc.  Great sounding mic, very low self-noise, and excellent price.  I actually trust the electrets for quality control more than the "standard" externally polarized capsules.

  Richard

[bensyverson]

You may think that these microphones are quite a bargain, in other words--but you ain't seen nothin' until you realize what kind of bargain they must be for the dozens of companies who are selling them to you with their name on them.

True -- and I do like the thought of 100 mics with my menacing face screenprinted on them.

But I guess I'd gladly pay the markup not to have to organize the distribution of 50 - 100 mics.

[Church-Audio]

The main problem with "trusting" the quality from China is this. As a manufacturer of preamps and mics my self. I would never send my items over to China for assembly. For one simple reason... They change things on you all the time. The way it works over there with most of the mic companies is you specify a design and components you want and they build it.. Only one little problem the second they dont have the parts they need they will "change" the design on you and guess what? They wont bother to tell you that they did change the design until its to late and you already have 500 of them in inventory. That's how they operate. They are cheap and sometimes you get great quality for very little $$$.. But its not by design its like throwing a dart at a dartboard with a blindfold on. Sometimes you get a bullseye sometimes not. I think its not fair to generalize but I would say 90% of the companies in China will do what ever it takes to make a quick buck..  at the expense of quality every time.

I once was working with a company from China as a consultant * a nameless microphone company * They sent me some samples of the tube mics they were making.. I opened up the high voltage power supplies, only to find out that a 250 volt 1.4A fuse was present on the circuit board but it was only there for show. As it was simply not wired to anything at all.. This is a very typical example of the kind of stuff being exported to North America. When I told the company that this was a major safety issue that they should stop selling these to The US/CAN they said "after we sell all of our old stock they would change the design" No concern for safety there at all.

You get what you pay for in the end. I agree with Bussman in the way that he is doing things. If your willing to "do the work here" you can then guarantee the quality. If you trust the guys in China you never know what you will get.


Chris

[bensyverson]

+T

Interesting stuff

[blindman]

This is the inside of my CK-1 BEFORE the Busman mod.

http://fecundswamp.peanutonastring.com/ck1/ck1_inside001.jpg

there more even higher res images here http://fecundswamp.peanutonastring.com/ck1/ look for ck1_inside00*.jpg's

I have not opened them up after the modding because I was not able to get it back together with the plastic switch covers in place the first time I opened the mic... Chris had to put them back in for me when he modded the mic.

This topic reminded me, I had an odd dream the other night that I made replacement switch covers out of hardwood... I had one of those eye loupes and a tiny file and I was carving tiny little replacement switch covers out of some kind of exotic hard wood. Don't ask me why I had the dream or why I mentioned it now... I remember waking up and thinking what a weird f*cking dream.

I am not opening my Peluso's... sorry.

[bensyverson]

+T for posting the CK-1 shot!
-T for not opening your mics 

j/k...

as I suspected, the internals of the CK-1 look pretty similar to the CAD.

[illconditioned]

+T for posting the CK-1 shot!
-T for not opening your mics 

j/k...

as I suspected, the internals of the CK-1 look pretty similar to the CAD.

Yep, it looks like the Chinese makers have finally perfected the "Scheops circuit" that Scott Dorsey wrote about.  He is a guy over at micbuilders (yahoo group) and rec.audio.pro (usenet) that suggested modding the poor (at the time) circuits in various Chinese mics.  Looks like they've all copied this design now.

I guess there are gains to be made, by: 1. quality control (ie., opening every shipment of mics), and 2. replacing some sketchy components.  I'm still thinking capsules make the difference between mics, and there are no ways to really fix capsules.

Thanks for the pics!!!

  Richard

[bensyverson]

Yeah, I've read a lot of Scott's posts over the years. He has some good stuff on RAMPS (rec.audio.movies.production.sound) as well. If the Chinese plants are getting their circuit designs from Scott, I guess I have to take back all the negative things I've said about USENET. Maybe it's not all flame wars and scheisse porn.

I suspect you're right about the capsules -- and I imagine that if there are QC issues with the Chinese mics, this is where you'd see it most. I'm not sure how much "by-hand" labor goes into capsule manufacture. If it's mostly automated, then I have more hope for the consistency. If it's mostly by-hand, well... let's just say that many years of programming has taught me much about human error.

Yep, it looks like the Chinese makers have finally perfected the "Scheops circuit" that Scott Dorsey wrote about.  He is a guy over at micbuilders (yahoo group) and rec.audio.pro (usenet) that suggested modding the poor (at the time) circuits in various Chinese mics.  Looks like they've all copied this design now.

I guess there are gains to be made, by: 1. quality control (ie., opening every shipment of mics), and 2. replacing some sketchy components.  I'm still thinking capsules make the difference between mics, and there are no ways to really fix capsules.

Thanks for the pics!!!

  Richard

[Busman Audio]

All of these quality issues are why I work on each and every microphone I receive. I found one that had a short before even testing it already. The wire coming from the capsule connection point was connected to one of the terminals on the -10db pad switch. That was pretty bad.
I check the sound quality of all my mics before putting them in the case as done.

You can say what you want about the mics before they come to me but after they go through my shop they are quality mics with the highest quality components and solder.

I asked my manufacturer if they could use good quality halogen free silver solder and they said, "Oh, we have been thinking about it but it can't happen now"

so when they said I could tell them what components to use I thought there is no way I trust that I will get the quality that I expect.

[Javier Cinakowski]

I just ran these Karma's through some tests.  Despite the visible differences on each circuit board the mics are very closely matched.  The frquency anyalizer shows little differences between the two, they dance perfectly together.  The amplitud statistics show they are close too.  The capsules must be the important part becasue the parts in the body look cheap and there are even a few different components in each...

   Left   Right
Min Sample Value:   -21477   -21760
Max Sample Value:   21449   22525
Peak Amplitude:   -3.67 dB   -3.26 dB
Possibly Clipped:   0   0
DC Offset:   0    0
Minimum RMS Power:   -29.26 dB   -29.47 dB
Maximum RMS Power:   -11.64 dB   -11.28 dB
Average RMS Power:   -18.62 dB   -18.5 dB
Total RMS Power:   -18.12 dB   -17.97 dB
Actual Bit Depth:   16 Bits   16 Bits

Using RMS Window of 50 ms

[Church-Audio]

I just ran these Karma's through some tests.  Despite the visible differences on each circuit board the mics are very closely matched.  The frquency anyalizer shows little differences between the two, they dance perfectly together.  The amplitud statistics show they are close too.  The capsules must be the important part becasue the parts in the body look cheap and there are even a few different components in each...

   Left   Right
Min Sample Value:   -21477   -21760
Max Sample Value:   21449   22525
Peak Amplitude:   -3.67 dB   -3.26 dB
Possibly Clipped:   0   0
DC Offset:   0    0
Minimum RMS Power:   -29.26 dB   -29.47 dB
Maximum RMS Power:   -11.64 dB   -11.28 dB
Average RMS Power:   -18.62 dB   -18.5 dB
Total RMS Power:   -18.12 dB   -17.97 dB
Actual Bit Depth:   16 Bits   16 Bits

Using RMS Window of 50 ms

How did you adjust the gain for both mics? Did you use a 1k test tone to set the levels and then run a wide band frequency response test? If not then your measurements might be off. You need to set the sensitivity of the mics so that they are exactly the same at 1k then do a wide band frequency response test. Try also using a MLS measurement so you can subtract what the room is doing to your measurements.

[Javier Cinakowski]

I wasn't that scientific, but I just wanted to get some rough results...    I tested the amplitude/sensitivity of the mics by just recording some x-mass music and running the statistics generator on the resulting waveforms.  For the frequency I recorded two tests, one of the x-mas music and one with the CEP tone generater.  I used the "out of control" preset.  Both mics gave similar results...  Thanks for the suggestions Chris, perhaps I'll give them some more proper tests soon..

Anyone see anything in the karma's that could be modified?  I like how they sound enough that I would be willing to throw some more money at them.  This is my second pair, I only bought this pair because they are on sale for dirt cheap.  The paint easily comes off the bodies and so does the Karma emblem.  I am going to sand them down and get them powder coated with some glow- in the dark paint! 

[Church-Audio]

I wasn't that scientific, but I just wanted to get some rough results...    I tested the amplitude/sensitivity of the mics by just recording some x-mass music and running the statistics generator on the resulting waveforms.  For the frequency I recorded two tests, one of the x-mas music and one with the CEP tone generater.  I used the "out of control" preset.  Both mics gave similar results...  Thanks for the suggestions Chris, perhaps I'll give them some more proper tests soon..

Anyone see anything in the karma's that could be modified?  I like how they sound enough that I would be willing to throw some more money at them.  This is my second pair, I only bought this pair because they are on sale for dirt cheap.  The paint easily comes off the bodies and so does the Karma emblem.  I am going to sand them down and get them powder coated with some glow- in the dark paint! 

I was just saying that when you do a wide band frequency response test you Must match both levels of both mics exactly at a center frequency the industry standard is 1k DPA uses 250hz and or 1k. But I prefer just 1k once you match both mics up at a center frequency then you can see if there is deviation between the two really easily. If you try and match both mics at there full frequency response what you end up doing is matching the wide band frequency response this tricks you into thinking that the mics are very close when in fact they can be very far apart.

Chris

[Javier Cinakowski]

Oh, I see what your sayin.  Let me give this a try.   Thanks!

[Church-Audio]

Oh, I see what your sayin.  Let me give this a try.   Thanks!

Not a problem

Chris

[bensyverson]

so when they said I could tell them what components to use I thought there is no way I trust that I will get the quality that I expect.

Awesome I'm very curious to hear the CK-1 against the Busman!

[Roving Sign]

Have only seen these on ebay...

http://cgi.ebay.com/CL-K1-Small-Diaphragm-Condenser-Mic-w-three-capsules_W0QQitemZ230205558589

[oleg]

http://www.fostexinternational.com/docs/pro_products/mc10m.shtml
this is probably the same shit under fostex name . one of the worst i ever cjecked lately
i dont think it is relative to peluso or sontronics as it back electret elements

[bensyverson]

Yeah, the TOM is electret too:
http://tom-audio.com/index.php?id=kondensatormikrofon

And not to belabor the point, but the following mics also share bodies with the Avant/Busman/CAD/microphonedeals models:
MXL 604 http://www.mxlmics.com/condenser_mic/mxl604/mxl604.htm
Cascade M39 http://www.cascademicrophones.com/cascade_M39.html

Neither includes the other caps, but they're obviously compatible.


And while we're at it, here's a Peluso-alike:

http://www.aamicrophones.com/fet_mics/cm_54.htm


The Peluso has a good rep, but let's see what it looks like inside.

[oleg]

the mxl looks like 747 factory
and the 54 is the feilo old desighn  as peluso and these which i have
its not sounds like schoeps  but its quit good for what it worth
i use my for gun shots and loud sfx where the self noise less important , but also ran it for commercials and other stuff just for fun
the feilo are quit good for low budget recordings

[bgalizio]

The Peluso has a good rep, but let's see what it looks like inside.

As far as they go, this is from Nick's review of the CEMC6:

The body of the preamp assembly is from a chinese mic. The elements are mylar from Germany. The others parts and pieces come from all around. John refereed to these as truly a "world mic", with all the parts being the cream of the crop from various venders around the globe. All of these parts are then assembled by hand at Peluso Labs.

[bensyverson]

I'm sure the Peluso is great...

I'd still like to see the PCB. 

Edit: is the Peluso transformerless?

[Chuck]

Old thread, I know...

Can someone confirm that all these microphones have the same body, basic wiring (old Scheops circuit) and capsules?

Apex 180/185
Avantone CK-1
Busman BSC1
CAD GXL1200
Marshall MXL 603
Nady CM-90

Also, are the capsules exchangeable between the brands?


Edit to add:
Cascade M39

[rastasean]

good update.

I'm particularly interested Avantone ck-1 and busman bsc1 mics so hopefully we can get some answers.

[Chuck]

We have pictures of the internals on some of them:
Top to bottom:

Apex 180
Avantone CK-1
CAD GXL1200
Marshall MXL 603s