Topic: Sony PCM-M10 discontinued? replaced by Sony ICD SX-2000?

[DancyGeorgia]

Looks like the Sony PCM-M10 has been discontinued. Adorama Camera still has a few units in all colors, but a number of other places I checked were completely out.

Sony has a new hi-res audio recorder being sold in Asia and maybe Europe, the Sony ICD SX-2000. It does not seem to be available yet in the USA, although one can buy it directly from Japan on eBay. Specs are here:

http://www.sony-asia.com/support/product/icd-sx2000

Note that the built-in mics on the ICD SX-2000 are Zoom wide stereo XY rather than the Omnis on the PCM-M10. The SX-2000 also has 16 GB of internal memory vs. 4 GB on the PCM-M10. The ICD SX-2000 is also about 1/2 the thickness of the PCM-M10. The ICD SX-2000 has a hold button, but I do not see a mic sensitivity control. I really like the mic sensitivity control on the PCM-M10 for loud concerts, so I'm wondering why they left it off.

Has anyone tried the new Sony ICD SX-2000? How does it compare to the PCM-M10 in recording quality, both using the internal mics and using external mics and battery box?

[Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B)]

Where did you see it was discontinued? I still see it here:

https://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/cat-audio/cat-recorders/product-PCMM10%2FB/

[DancyGeorgia]

The PCM-M10 is no longer on the following Sony site:

http://www.sony.com/

And the Pro Sony Asia site actually says "DISCONTINUED":

http://pro.sony-asia.com/pro/lang/en/hk/product/broadcast-products-professional-audio-portable/pcm-m10/overview/

And a number of vendors that used to sell the PCM-M10 are no longer selling it, e.g. Sound Professionals and Sweetwater. The official cases have also been discontinued according to several vendors.

It may be that the PCM-M10 is currently only discontinued in Asia with a new model introduced in Asia. But given that a number of the US vendors are no longer carrying the PCM-M10, I suspect that it will soon also be discontinued and the new model eventually available in the US.

[voltronic]

The SX2000 is the successor to the SX1000, and both are from Sony's voice recorder line.  I don't think it's meant to replace the M10.  It looks interesting though, with Bluetooth remote control as a new feature.  No line in, only a mic in jack.  They mention auto gain control, but I would hope it can be deactivated in software.

http://republicaradio.com/sony-icd-sx2000/

[Sebastian]

The ICD SX-2000 indeed looks promising. From browsing the manuals, these points are interesting IMHO:

• Apparently the directivity of the built-in mics can be changed (not that I'll ever use them anyway).
• I couldn't find any specs on the mic input or the available gain, other than the fact that is has a minimum input level of 1.5mV (which is somewhere in the middle of the M10's line and mic inputs).
• There's a remote control app for it (which I find pretty cool).
• It has an internal rechargeable battery with run times over 15 hours, chargeable via USB.
• It supports FLAC files.
• 16 GB of internal memory plus microSD card slot.
• Street price is around 200 GBP in the UK / 280 EUR in Euroland.

Oh, and the app seems to have a frequency analyser. How cool is that?


Call me a slut, but I think I want one!

The SX2000 is the successor to the SX1000, and both are from Sony's voice recorder line.  I don't think it's meant to replace the M10.  It looks interesting though, with Bluetooth remote control as a new feature.  No line in, only a mic in jack.  They mention auto gain control, but I would hope it can be deactivated in software.

If you do a google image search for it, you'll find quite a few promo photos of the unit set up for recording music. The "Hi-Res Audio" logo (whatever that stands for) is placed very prominently on the unit and Sony DE's site. Also, judging from how the app looks, I don't think it's targeted exclusively at voice recording.

[swordfish]

The ICD SX-2000 indeed looks promising. From browsing the manuals, these points are interesting IMHO:

• Apparently the directivity of the built-in mics can be changed (not that I'll ever use them anyway).
• I couldn't find any specs on the mic input or the available gain, other than the fact that is has a minimum input level of 1.5mV (which is somewhere in the middle of the M10's line and mic inputs).
• There's a remote control app for it (which I find pretty cool).
• It has an internal rechargeable battery with run times over 15 hours, chargeable via USB.
• It supports FLAC files.
• 16 GB of internal memory plus microSD card slot.
• Street price is around 200 GBP in the UK / 280 EUR in Euroland.

Oh, and the app seems to have a frequency analyser. How cool is that?


Call me a slut, but I think I want one!

The SX2000 is the successor to the SX1000, and both are from Sony's voice recorder line.  I don't think it's meant to replace the M10.  It looks interesting though, with Bluetooth remote control as a new feature.  No line in, only a mic in jack.  They mention auto gain control, but I would hope it can be deactivated in software.

If you do a google image search for it, you'll find quite a few promo photos of the unit set up for recording music. The "Hi-Res Audio" logo (whatever that stands for) is placed very prominently on the unit and Sony DE's site. Also, judging from how the app looks, I don't think it's targeted exclusively at voice recording.

Will it record in 24bit 48khz and will you be able to change levels when the recordder is locked?

[Sebastian]

Will it record in 24bit 48khz

Looks like it.

and will you be able to change levels when the recordder is locked?

I have no idea.

[aaronji]

The "Hi-Res Audio" logo (whatever that stands for) is placed very prominently on the unit and Sony DE's site.

It stands for "Sony's all-in marketing ploy based on a specious premise"!  It has featured prominently in the advertising for most of their recent audio products...

[Sebastian]

The available recording formats listed in the manual are a bit disappointing:



That would pretty much kill it for me.

However, many more sampling rates are listed in the specs:

[voltronic]

I'm pretty sure that all of those other sampling rates up to 192kHz are for playback only; not recording.  If it can only record 44.1 and 96, and not even do that rate with the external memory, then I think this recorder is not a great choice for what we do here, compared to what other choices are out there.

[dogmusic]

Apparently you can move files internally in the machine between built-in memory and external microSD card. That way, you could record up to 6.5 hours at 24/96 in the internal memory, move them over to the external card, erase the internal, and record another 6.5 hours at 24/96.

Not ideal, but a work-around if the machine sounds good enough to bother about.

[ilduclo]

yeah, 44/24 is my preferred recording settings. Sounds like 24 bit not available unless you go 96?

[ScoobieKW]

I'm pretty sure that all of those other sampling rates up to 192kHz are for playback only; not recording.  If it can only record 44.1 and 96, and not even do that rate with the external memory, then I think this recorder is not a great choice for what we do here, compared to what other choices are out there.

It makes sense from an engineers point of view, especially in the light of the DR70D media hulabaloo, to use internal memory for high bit-rate recording. It's a known bandwidth/performance device. Take the variable away so it just works. With the price of memory dropping, I'm hopeful that this trend continues.

In pro video you can see the variable argument in the approaches of Blackmagic Design and AJA video recorders. Both use large removable media. The Hyperlink from BM uses commodity SSD drives, but with a recommended list. AJA sells their own drives, now 1TB SSD with USB3. Guess which product I've heard stories about involving hard to reproduce record errors?

Also, guess which company has the better warranty policy. Which is rarely needed. (Overnighted replacement after the first phone call with knowledgeable engineer, just send problematic unit back. Out of warranty? They attempt to fix it for free, and apologize for charging you shipping.)

[earmonger]

PCM-M10 is still available at Amazon and B&H.

[nulldogmas]

Didn't we just go through this rumor a year or so ago?

[Lostbrook]

Didn't we just go through this rumor a year or so ago?

And it motivated me to buy another one.  Which is a good thing. 

[LiveWire]

• I couldn't find any specs on the mic input or the available gain, other than the fact that is has a minimum input level of 1.5mV (which is somewhere in the middle of the M10's line and mic inputs).

Can any of our resident boffins comment on the mic in spec above for recording loud live music via a tinybox pre amp into mic in on this device.
I am considering replacing my Edirol R09 at some point and I like the size of this new Sony device and the 16Gb internal memory would suit me well as that is what I have in my R09 now.
Has anyone used one of these yet?

[morst]

I never use the mic in, but the LINE IN on the PCM-M10 can handle a VERY HOT signal of 2.0 volts. Awesome.
PCM-M10 only has 4 GB internal memory but takes microSD cards up to 32GB I think. I know 16's work.

[MakersMarc]

I run 32 without issue.

[adrianb]

And I run 64GB without issue.

[Brian G]

And I run 64GB without issue.

Interesting, I've tried three different 64gb cards in it, and none would work...32 worked fine.

[voltronic]

I think 32GB is the largest that is officially supported, which is what I use.

Shouldn't we be doing this discussion in the M10 discussion thread?  Have we confirmed that it is still being manufactured?

[dogmusic]

Have we confirmed that it is still being manufactured?

It's still listed here: https://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/cat-audio/cat-recorders/product-PCMM10%2FB/

and here: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/638090-REG/Sony_PCM_M10_BLACK_PCM_M10_Portable_Audio_Recorder.html

[lsd2525]

Have we confirmed that it is still being manufactured?

It's still listed here: https://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/cat-audio/cat-recorders/product-PCMM10%2FB/

and here: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/638090-REG/Sony_PCM_M10_BLACK_PCM_M10_Portable_Audio_Recorder.html

Huh. The red one at B & H is $199; white and black are $229. Weird

[down2earthlandscaper]

Didn't we just go through this rumor a year or so ago?

And it motivated me to buy another one.  Which is a good thing.

Yes, Indeed!

[adrianb]

And I run 64GB without issue.

Interesting, I've tried three different 64gb cards in it, and none would work...32 worked fine.

I'm using a Samsung Memory 64 GB EVO MicroSDXC card in both my PCM-M10 and PCM-D100 (+card adapter) with no issues.

I think I followed some recommended way to format them that I read here. The card in the M10 is swapped out almost every week. Never had any problems.

[Jonas Karlsson]

True it IS discontinued - so - what to buy instead?!

I need to get a new one soon, need a back-up, just in case... Love everything about the M10....

/Jonas

[thomasdk7]

I took a look at the manual for the ICD SX2000. From what I read in the manual, you need to pause the recording before adjusting the recording level: http://helpguide.sony.net/icd/s20/v1/en2/contents/TP0001036875.html
This sounds a bit old-fashioned, like something you would find on an old Sony minidisc recorder
Installing the app and looking in the help section further supports this: "Pressing the pause button activates the manual recording level controls (+ and -)"
Have anyone tried out the SX2000 yet?

Btw, mic in also works as line in by setting it to "Audio IN" http://helpguide.sony.net/icd/s20/v1/en2/contents/TP0000831192.html

[tomy01]

Just purchased another PCM-M10 (Black) from B&H - the Red and White versions are gone - and when the Black versions are gone that is IT!  Would advise anyone who loves this model to purchase another one ASAP and leave it in the box as a spare.

[beatkilla]

i hope that means the Sony PCM M20 is coming soon with:

-Slim profile
-DSD
-Built in 64GB
-Switchable PIP 3v,5v,9v

[2manyrocks]

All this time I have yet to see any fanfare PR telling us there is a replacement.  The sx2000 features seem more like a hot rod dictation recorder and it lacks the "m" designation in the name (m10, m50, ...).  I don't know that we have seen what the successor will be or if there will be a successor.

[voltronic]

All this time I have yet to see any fanfare PR telling us there is a replacement.  The sx2000 features seem more like a hot rod dictation recorder and it lacks the "m" designation in the name (m10, m50, ...).  I don't know that we have seen what the successor will be or if there will be a successor.

Agreed, no way that the SX-2000 is a replacement for the M10. 

I wonder how well (or not) the D100 has been selling.  Hopefully that's not going to be Sony's only handheld recorder going forward.  It's a pretty high price to charge for a 2-channel recorder that doesn't even have a pair of XLR inputs like most of the competition does for much less.  I know some here have it and love it, but DSD and 192kHz PCM do nothing for me - I want better functionality for my money and 96kHz is more than anyone needs.  Consider that a Roland R-44 can be had for the price of a D100.

They would need to, at minimum, make a product with the features of the Tascam DR-44WL for me to be interested (minus the WiFi control).

[tnelson]

It would be interesting to know what Sony's current market analysis is for the M10 niche. From our perspective, they got so much just right with the M10, and we'd like them just to tweak it and continue. However, there's so much competition in this lower end of the handheld recorder market, it's maybe not worth it for Sony anymore. There's also the growth of smartphone add-on mic systems that I'm guessing is causing all audio manufacturers to think pretty hard about continuing to develop these standalone consumer products. I hope Sony produces a replacement, but I really doubt it's coming.

[colargol]

It would be interesting to know what Sony's current market analysis is for the M10 niche. From our perspective, they got so much just right with the M10, and we'd like them just to tweak it and continue. However, there's so much competition in this lower end of the handheld recorder market, it's maybe not worth it for Sony anymore. There's also the growth of smartphone add-on mic systems that I'm guessing is causing all audio manufacturers to think pretty hard about continuing to develop these standalone consumer products. I hope Sony produces a replacement, but I really doubt it's coming.

I am guessing (and hoping) that you are wrong. I don't see why Sony would have a professional recorder and a super lineup of voice recorders, but choose to skip this section. I think Sony has sold quite a few of the PCM-M10. We'll see. I might just be biased because I really want to see an improved version of M10. I'm not betting that I am right, so I've got two M10s ;-)
In Sony's camera business it seems they many times choose to wait releasing a new model if the competition is not that strong with the current model. And if I were to get a new recorder today, I would still get an M10, so maybe that is why they are not in a hurry...

[rastasean]

Throughout the years I've been on this board, most of us can't agree on a good record, mic, pre-amp, cable, etc. However, the m10 is still held up as a good recorder. Not perfect, but after years since it's been released, we still seem to like it.
It's hard to say what prosumer lines of Sony, roland and tascam will do to stay relevant in face of everyone using iphones to record with. I simply like different devices for different things, so I hope there will be an m20 soon.

[MakersMarc]

The question probably is, who the hell needs a compact recorder when they can use an iPhone and an app. Even governments that bought 661s and m10s for law enforcement might go cheap and just use government issued cells to record.

[Drewskers]

The question probably is, who the hell needs a compact recorder when they can use an iPhone and an app.

Battery life would be one reason.

[nulldogmas]

Hey look, it's back in stock:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/638090-REG/Sony_PCM_M10_BLACK_PCM_M10_Portable_Audio_Recorder.html

Maybe just the other colors were discontinued?

[Drewskers]

The black one hasn't been out of stock at B&H yet. I know, because I've been watching like a nervous nellie the past couple of months as I have been planning to purchase one for a project later this summer. Meanwhile the price on Amazon has increased substantially ($245), and Adorama started saying, "Limited Quantity, Buy Now":

http://www.adorama.com/sopcmm10bk.html

Then I noticed Sony UK says it is discontinued:

http://www.sony.co.uk/pro/product/broadcast-products-professional-audio-portable/pcm-m10/overview/

So I pulled the trigger and nabbed one from B&H.

[voltronic]

The question probably is, who the hell needs a compact recorder when they can use an iPhone and an app.

Battery life would be one reason.

Also:
- input options for external mics / line sources
- open ecosystem for connecting those external devices
- mic powering
- high reliability (not busy with other tasks during recording)
- expandable storage (available less and less on phones)

I haven't seen a phone-based solution that even begins to come close to replacing a dedicated recorder.  If phone manufacturers made audio recording as much as a priority as they do photo / video, things would probably be different, but in our visual-dominant world, this is what we have.

[voltronic]

Just a suggestion, but we have a long-established M10 discussion thread.  We should probably move discussion over there, especially for the benefit of new members / users of the M10 who may not know it's being discontinued.

[2manyrocks]

If the m10 is discontinued, we should have a special thread to memorialize its passing.

[MakersMarc]

Really should, love this deck. Glad I have two.

[daspyknows]

I personally like the Tascam DR-2D which was discontinued.  If Sony does what Tascam did, the "replacement" will be have a few new bells and whistles but lack certain aspects we all need.  When tat happened I was able to grab a backup and 2 backups to the backup just to be set for as long as I am taping.  If something better comes out I will purchase but it was like the cassette days.  The Sony TC-D5M was as good as it got and the subsequent analog products were a step down.  While available it is worth the investment to get at least a backup.

[tim in jersey]

Really should, love this deck. Glad I have two.

I've got my original deck which I purchased in 2010 and is still working flawlessly. And 2 more NOS units in boxes waiting to be deployed should the need arise.

Achilles' heel on these is the 1/8" line-input jack, IME. I've taken great care to make sure I don't plug anything in that can cantilever and compromise the mini jack.

I've currently got an nbox>2xRCA>Neutrik RA 1/8" cable>M-10. I wrapped the Neutrik connector in gaff so it sits flat against the deck and can't "rock" either way and bend the internal contacts on the deck.

I've since located this connector http://www.switchcraft.com/productsummary.aspx?Parent=992

Sits lower and is less likely to bend the contacts on any small hand-held deck with a 3.5mm input...

[dactylus]

Really should, love this deck. Glad I have two.

I've since located this connector http://www.switchcraft.com/productsummary.aspx?Parent=992

Sits lower and is less likely to bend the contacts on any small hand-held deck with a 3.5mm input...

Thanks for the link to this RA connector!

[mnm207]

Was at B&H last week on another errand and, since the power switch on my M10 is getting sticky, stopped by the audio department to askeabout any talk of a replacement for the M10 (or its discontinuation).

No official word on either according the salesman I spoke with. He did note that their system has the red version listed as discontinued. The black version is in stock but with Izotope RX bundled with it. The bundle reminded him of what he saw with Zoom's H4n: B&H bought the remaining stock of that popular recorder and then bundled it to move them quickly before their being discontinued and replaced by the H4n PRO. Approximately 1000 units is the number he guessed at.

So, no official discontinuation but probably approaching it.

At any rate, B&H has them in stock.

[Brian G]

I grabbed a new in box sealed  Red one on Ebay for BIN $150 last week. Keep your eyes open.

[su6oxone]

Achilles' heel on these is the 1/8" line-input jack, IME. I've taken great care to make sure I don't plug anything in that can cantilever and compromise the mini jack.

Is this a known issue, like the old Edirol R-09 where the jack was "lightly glued" to the board?  Anyone know if the miniplug jack is mechanically attached (not glued) to the board?

[tim in jersey]

Achilles' heel on these is the 1/8" line-input jack, IME. I've taken great care to make sure I don't plug anything in that can cantilever and compromise the mini jack.

Is this a known issue, like the old Edirol R-09 where the jack was "lightly glued" to the board?  Anyone know if the miniplug jack is mechanically attached (not glued) to the board?

I don't have an answer to that. I'm just paranoid about 3.5mm jacks in general...

[nulldogmas]

No official word on either according the salesman I spoke with. He did note that their system has the red version listed as discontinued. The black version is in stock but with Izotope RX bundled with it. The bundle reminded him of what he saw with Zoom's H4n: B&H bought the remaining stock of that popular recorder and then bundled it to move them quickly before their being discontinued and replaced by the H4n PRO. Approximately 1000 units is the number he guessed at.

Thanks, good to know. I have two already so probably won't pick up a third as a backup backup, but don't quote me on that.

[colargol]

Was at B&H last week on another errand and, since the power switch on my M10 is getting sticky, stopped by the audio department to askeabout any talk of a replacement for the M10 (or its discontinuation).

No official word on either according the salesman I spoke with. He did note that their system has the red version listed as discontinued. The black version is in stock but with Izotope RX bundled with it. The bundle reminded him of what he saw with Zoom's H4n: B&H bought the remaining stock of that popular recorder and then bundled it to move them quickly before their being discontinued and replaced by the H4n PRO. Approximately 1000 units is the number he guessed at.

So, no official discontinuation but probably approaching it.

At any rate, B&H has them in stock.

I checked B&H today, seems like they no longer sell any version of the M10...

[TheMetalist]

I checked B&H today, seems like they no longer sell any version of the M10...

Unfortunately. It was changed to 'Discontinued' last weekend. I was supposed to order one but came too late to the party.

Adorama still have the red version. Ordered one a few days ago. According to Amazon they have 20 left in stock. Not sure how accurate that is. They also have the black one on Amazon with only 12 left in stock but it's not available at their website so I doubt that is correct.

Tried to find an EU reseller but no luck. Seems like it's gone forever.

[adrianb]

Sob 

[TheMetalist]

Did anyone ask Sony for a successor? I just e-mailed Sony in my country. We'll see what they have to say about it.

[Brian G]

Full Compass has them for $219

http://www.fullcompass.com/prod/151904-Sony-PCM-M10-B?utm_source=googleps&utm_medium=shopping&utm_campaign=googleps&st-t=googleshopping-audio_all_day_long&vt-k=&vt-mt=&vt-pti=151904&gclid=CjwKEAjwrvq9BRD5gLyrufTqg0YSJACcuF81PuU4qiDLtlayxAsUa8Xa1MMBJgN4myIBVCDRTgK9lRoCVGjw_wcB

[2manyrocks]

The last price B & H had that I saw was $216 before they went "discontinued."  So if you're on the fence about buying, you'd better get off it if you want one from Full Compass.o one

Puzzling what Sony is thinking.

[adrianb]

Puzzling what Sony is thinking.

Thinking people should buy the much more expensive D100?

[dank]

Just ordered a backup from Full Compass.   Just got my first M10 last week and really like it and do not like having to change gear that I like, so glad to have a backup (Shit happens when you stealth sometimes)

[Brian G]

Full Compass has them for $219

http://www.fullcompass.com/prod/151904-Sony-PCM-M10-B?utm_source=googleps&utm_medium=shopping&utm_campaign=googleps&st-t=googleshopping-audio_all_day_long&vt-k=&vt-mt=&vt-pti=151904&gclid=CjwKEAjwrvq9BRD5gLyrufTqg0YSJACcuF81PuU4qiDLtlayxAsUa8Xa1MMBJgN4myIBVCDRTgK9lRoCVGjw_wcB

They are on sale today from Full Compass for $211

[jibanes]

I think fullcompass doesn't have any left as of August 27th.
How does the SX-2000 compares to the M10?
And when will the SX-2000 be available in the USA?

[voltronic]

I think fullcompass doesn't have any left as of August 27th.
How does the SX-2000 compares to the M10?
And when will the SX-2000 be available in the USA?

Its recording capabilities are much more limited compared to the M10.  Just take a look at this post from Sebastian.  With all due respect to the OP, I think this thread should have been locked long ago; it's confusing people.

As has been said several times before, the ICD SX-2000 is from Sony's voice recorder line and is most definitely not a replacement for the M10, which is from the Pro Audio line.  It's not even for sale anywhere in the US, as far as I can find.

The only recorder Sony has that's close to the M10 right now is the PCM-D100, which is of course much more expensive.  There may never be a direct replacement for the M10, and given what they've done with the PCM-D100 I don't hold out much hope that they're going to come out with anything innovative at a reasonable price point.

In the interest of not confusing any more people, can we please put an end to this false rumor, and continue in the M10 discussion thread?  Even for those of us who know what's going on, it gets hard to follow when things are fragmented between multiple simultaneous threads.

[Not_JoeKing]

I've been a out of the loop for a while regarding the latest gear news and am just learning that the M10 has been discontinued.  What's up with that?!  The "replacement" does not look like a good alternative IMO.  I wonder who Sony gave it the axe.  The M10 was such a great size, the built-in mics did not protrude, and it was a total workhorse. 

[voltronic]

I've been a out of the loop for a while regarding the latest gear news and am just learning that the M10 has been discontinued.  What's up with that?!  The "replacement" does not look like a good alternative IMO.  I wonder who Sony gave it the axe.  The M10 was such a great size, the built-in mics did not protrude, and it was a total workhorse.

That's because the recorder being talked about in this thread is not a replacement for the M10.  There is no replacement on the horizon it seems.

Here's the current PCM-M10 discussion thread:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=170179.210