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Gear / Technical Help => Ask The Tapers => Topic started by: Gary Hull on August 08, 2003, 05:39:18 PM
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Here is a question I have been interested in for a while, and I was hoping to get some different peoples opinions on the subject.
I know that with most people transfer to the computer to burn to CD amd you can boost the levels of the recording afterwards. Will the sound quality be better to push the levels during the recording, and not boost the levels on the computer or is it better to be conservative during the recording and boost the levels later???
Also, if it is better to be conservative, is there such a thing as being too conservative?
Thanks for the help
Gary
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My computer sucks so I can't normalize the levels, but I do run with them peaking at -2 on the DAT deck. "Too low" is not as big a deal with DAT as it is with analog, but I definitely boost them if the peaks are at like -6 or anything like that. -2 gives you a little safety cushion if they drop a bomb or anything like that.
Brief, transient peaks (kick drums) for example, will not be as audible if you register an over as sustained peaks. I don't want the kick drum going consistently over, but if it goes over a few times in the course of the set, I am not going to do anything about that.
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yea, it depends on how you do your transfers on your computer, especially the program, on cool edit pro you can up your volume, but it does make a difference in anolog and digital, analog the more you increase the more noise your gonna get. i run just under overload, but yea if it does go over, its ok, unless it stays there, but for a split second its fine you shouldn't be able to hear it.
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I like to run it HOT! When I was running my MP2 I would jack that baby way up....just so it would kiss the over on loud drum beats. Then I would set my deck to average around -6 and peak just under the zero.
My UA5 is a different story. If the red comes on too much the recording is shit....so I set it so it the over light on the UA5 comes on ONLY for a split second during the loudest parts of the show....this gives me levels between -6 and -2 on my deck.
TURN THAT BITCH UP!
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I run haot as all hell too. I truly think that a tape can me made or broken between -6 and -2...that is just my opinion though. I try to peak anywhere between -2 and 0, with a consistent -6 al the time!
It's hard as hell to clip the mme anyway!
Daryan
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run it HOT....using the SBM, I have also learned that minor blinkng is no problem....-2 is where I want to be in most cases. The only diversion I have had from this is acoustic show taping...which can be an issue when the crowd gets loud at the end of a song
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I run haot as all hell too. I truly think that a tape can me made or broken between -6 and -2...that is just my opinion though. I try to peak anywhere between -2 and 0, with a consistent -6 al the time!
It's hard as hell to clip the mme anyway!
Daryan
Yep, hot is the way to go!
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I ran my UA5 @ Alpine Valley Phish with the peak light flashing a few times every couple seconds. I think my tape came out pretty well, actually....
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I like to run it HOT! When I was running my MP2 I would jack that baby way up....just so it would kiss the over on loud drum beats. Then I would set my deck to average around -6 and peak just under the zero.
My UA5 is a different story. If the red comes on too much the recording is shit....so I set it so it the over light on the UA5 comes on ONLY for a split second during the loudest parts of the show....this gives me levels between -6 and -2 on my deck.
TURN THAT BITCH UP!
I can vouch for Becky, she does like it hot. I just transfered one of her shows. In the transfer using WaveLab, I got 11 overs. For grins I did a clip search in CoolEdit Pro. There were thousands, yes, thousands of "potential" clips. Listening back, I did noticed some harsh areas, but it didn't sound as bad as you would think.
I'm more conservative on my levels. I aim for no "overs", but usually end up with 1 or 2. As most have stated, usually on a transient percussive hits.
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im agreeing with calico, using the MD for awhile made me very conservative with levels, b/c of the analog transfers i had to do with it, but with the dat and digital signals, its way hard to get loud clips, and my experience with the mp2 i used at IT and camden, i had the levels on the mp2 hittin the peak, getting action from the 4th light all the way up, mostly in the last 3, i coulnt believe it, way better than my ad20, which with an attenuator for the mics, can be run pretty hot
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the first show i taped i ran hot, with the peaks on the d8 hitting the 0db range but never getting the clipping light. But when I transfered to the audiophile 2496 via coax, even though the d8 didn't show over, the monitors in the m-audio control panel were blinking in the red, and it made for a distast er of a tape. Peak Le did not show overs, but not sure why.
tried all ways to correct it, but finally ran a line out of the d8 into the analog inputs of the card
ever since i have been running a little lower, and averaging at the circle 12 of the d8 dat (midpoint) and i have had no problems with transfers since.
so, i would say, run it as hot as you can without getting any bad effects...
chris k
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i think it has to do with what your transfering with, i have a ua5 that i just use for transfers to my laptops and if you use something like the ua5, its a/d can be different than the one in the dat and this could cause clipping in the unit transfering to pc as i have had experience with this with my MD but if you go digital to your computer, there should be minor issues with clipping unless you were running constant -2 to 0 decibels the whole time, that would do it
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The ULN-2's A/D stage is "optimized" (sounds best) at -6. So I try to stay around there and use that 24th bit for headroom.
I can vouch for dB swings eating you for lunch. I was doing some unamped jazz shows where everything would be nice and pretty until the drum solo, and those transients popped red every time. Lesson learned ... aim for -12 at shows like that!
-Matt
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HOT!! I run my V3 so the over lights blink a few times a song - a few minor, inaudible overs are worth it IMO for getting the overall levels higher.
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i try to push the levels so that i might get a one channel over maybe 4 times a set. and usually wavlab shows peaks at -1 or less than that. i can always do a channel copy if the clip is audible, i dont like having both channels clip, bc it is harder to fix those.
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With the V3 I run it hot, always pushing it, I never understood normalizing the sound after wards, get it while your there, more natural, less fucking with it.
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The only diversion I have had from this is acoustic show taping...which can be an issue when the crowd gets loud at the end of a song
That's why I like the soft limit feature on the MiniMe.
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I'm also a Hot Boy! Just like Brian S., I like to hit "over" a few times a song.
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Like reaching into the yellows on the 500e on most of the time, with the reds coming on once or twice a song. If the mix is on and the compression works, it sounds great. Other times (ABB last night comes to mind) it's hard to get it dialed in.
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If recording in 16 bit it is very important to push levels as high as possible this link explains in detail.
http://www.24bitfaq.org/#Q0_1_1
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Great link. BTW, I am loving the hypers...especially indoors. My bsico midx tape is a testament to that for sure!
Daryan
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I ran extremely hot last night....very quick, faint blinks on the SBM, no registered overs on the DAT meter that I was watching...sounds great. Will have to report back if the .wav tells me anything different!
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i run my v3 hot hot hot!! But have found it is definately necessary with the hypers on the mbhos, never had probs with it going over, at least not audible ones
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Very hot. Lately I've just been using the levels meters on the V3. I try to get it hitting -3db, but usually have a few overs during a show.
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when i ran a dat deck i ran alot hotter than now because i run a nomad it seems that the UA5>JB3 combo seems to be real sesitive as far as levels go so i try not to let it get too hot good luck ;D ;D ;Dmike
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just put the AD-20 through its paces tonight for a comparison to how i usually run more conservatively and i must say, oh what a difference, its hot for me from now on, -2 really makes or brakes the sound quality
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Lee-
did you say compression? you run soft limit on the ad500e?
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must be a mod. ad500 if its got soft limit.
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Agree with the UA-5ers. I run my with the light coming on just briefly(no continuous on) during louder parts. Very rarely get any clips on the D7 that way.
-Kevin
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500e has soft limit stock.
I'm not sure what the hell I was talking about... I think it had something to do with the "compression" (if that's the right word) in the PA that keeps the dynamic range smaller and the SPL out of the system fairly constant. That is compression, right?
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my bad. I thought that was the diff between the 500 and the 1000. Is the diff the pre?
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oh smaller dynamic range? I'm not so sure thats a good thing for a heavier hitting band
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oh smaller dynamic range? I'm not so sure thats a good thing for a heavier hitting band
I'll agree, but it's just the nature of the beast sometimes it seems. I could definately be wrong on this one though. I'm just saying it's easier to peg the level when there isn't too much dynamic range.
as for AD's, the pre is the difference, in that the ad1k has one and the 500e don't
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for the bands I enjoy, dynamic range is the key. I like the ebb and flow of the sounds. I don't want the Old Joe to be as loud as the Chilly either through the PA or on my tape through the soft limit. That is an issue I am dealing with right now on a conversion project someone sent me. Sure, its nice that nothing clips, but the .wav files look like blocks with everything being of very similar volume. Its a nice feature, but one that I feel can be abused.
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Yeah, I don't use SL unless I feel it's warranted (which is almost never), and don't touch the wavform (except splitting CD tracks) once it hits the HD
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Sure, its nice that nothing clips, but the .wav files look like blocks with everything being of very similar volume. Its a nice feature, but one that I feel can be abused.
Absolutely...I use the compression feature of the Waves package on some of my stealth tapes to balance out the sound. Can't always get the levels just right when you are being watched like a hawk (unless your name is xxxxx or Wang of course ;D). And while it is a great tool and definitely helps boost your levels to where the tape sounds really solid on most playback systems, you can get out of control with it. I did it once playing with my Sheryl Crow tape and my wav file when I was done looked like a skyline...all blocky
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