Topic: wanna help me plan my upgrades?

[daco63]

I've been inspired!

This has been covered from various angles in other posts but the basic idea is:

Build a system up over time and conserve money by trading up.  It works for playback systems the same as it does for recording gear.  Do the required research so that you can select quality gear that has a reputation for being durable and holds resale value.  If you buy well respected gear, you can sell it when you get ready to move up.  Pick the very best components you already have and build around them to start.

I have two basic policies I follow:

1) I research the next upgrade while I'm saving money.  I study audiogon and the prices so that I know how common a good unit is on the market what a good price is.  Then I wait for the right unit to come up and the price I think is fair.  My goal is simply to minimize depreciation. 

2) I try to upgrade two levels of quality when I upgrade any component so that nothing gets out grown soon without having one component way outside the range of the rest of the system.  That reduces churn (saves money) and when one piece jumps ahead of the rest of the system, it usually has some unlocked potential that comes out when another piece is upgraded in the future.  So I get usually get really nice results each upgrade.

There are a lot of differing opinions but if I had to start from scratch today and had a limited budget, I would do something like this and try to do each step every 6-10 months.  Except for the first one, each of these upgrade can be in the $500 range.  Most people throw away more than $50 a month on that last beer or eating out at lunch.

1) get a good pair of monitors and stands and a good solid state integrated with digital inputs.  Use a PC or field recorder to push bits.  start saving for step 2.
2) next upgrade, get a very good DAC and still use PC or recorder for playback.  start saving for step 3.
3) decide if the speakers or integrated is weakest and upgrade the weakest one next. 
4) upgrade what you didn't in step 3.
5) depending on how good the DAC is, either go back to (2) or cycle though (3) and (4) on more time.
6) maybe eventually get a stand alone optical but these days I'd just use a networked storage device or the DVD reader in a PC to feed the DAC.

It is important to keep a synergy between all the pieces.  A $3000 speaker is going to sound not much better than a $300 speaker if its driven by poor upstream gear.  So spread the investment around.  Cables do make an audible difference but initally not so much, so just get some well constructed cables and worry about the esoteric ones later.  At some point, room treatments will be the best upgrade so consider those in there somewhere.

Anybody want to help me out with upgrade planning?

I bought most of my stuff *new* back in the day.  Married, kids, yada yada yada...   Now I'm building a new audio/guitar practice room in my basement.  I need to decide what to keep and what to sell off... and what upgrades to plan for. 

Here's my playback gear:

   Denon PRA-1500 preamp
   Hafler XL-280 amp
   ADS L620 speakers
   JVC L-A31 turntable with Sonus Silver cartridge
   Kenwood DP-57 CD player
   AIWA AD-WX707 dual cassette player (lol)
   Yamaha T-1000 tuner
   Alesis Studio 24 mixing board
   Behringer
   iBasso D2-Viper USB/DAC/headphone amp (with opamp sockets - yay!)
   (no decent interconnects to speak of...)

I'm moving more and more to playback from the laptop, and I'll be playing electric guitar along with this system now and then.  My sources are all 16/44.1 right now.  (In a couple years I'll probably trade up my PMD660 for a FR2LE...)  Should I sell off the Hafler, ADS and Behringer's and get some better powered monitors?  Or...

What do you think? Advice??? 

- Dave

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

Some thoughts:

Since you already have seperates and are comfortable with those, I'd just stay that course for now.

I would hang on to that XL-280 for now.  If you like to play around with solder, there are lots of upgrades for the various hafler amps.  I started with a DH-200.  There is a longer story but in short, I got some great performance using the hafler and a CJ FET pre feeding some refreshed infinity RS6Bs.   My DH-200 was modified with caps and precision resistors by the previous owner.

The Denon is a decent enough unit.  If you were going to replace it, you'll need to find something with an integrated phono preamp or buy an external one.  You should keep your table if you still have vinyl.  There is a CJ SC-1 on agon right now (http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?preatran&1213695788).  It's an older unit, predating the SC25 I had paired with the DH220.  If you feel like trying something along those lines, I would offer the seller $200 but not more.  Don't be ashamed of offering less than what people list, some people have an inflated sense of worth regarding their gear.  I sold my SC25 for $250 without the phono preamp module (phono pre would have added $100).   Another option would have been this CJ PV2Ar (http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?preatube&1213309273) if it had not gone so quickly.  The PV2Ar is one of those classic pieces that just don't lose value.  They have actually been going up the last few years.  I originally heard one with the DH-220 and it was really nice but I went with the FET unit because I was scared to try tubes at the time.

The ADS L620 are probably more than 20 years old now.  If they have not been rebuilt, they are probably the first thing I would consider trading.  There are other monitors, but I really like the von schweikert stuff right now.  The VR-1s come up less often now and seem to sell pretty quickly.  I think they are discontinued.  These http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrmoni&1213369135 went for $600 as new but I've seen really nice pairs go for $450.  You have to be patient and ready to jump when they come up.  Some people here have them and can comment on how they sound. 

How are you playing your recordings now?  If you make CDs, does your transport have an SPDIF out?  You might find that even a moderately priced outboard DAC could make a big improvement.   The CAL alpha is a great DAC for 16/44 (http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?dgtlconv&1213309405) and you could use it for some time before needing to upgrade it.  It has a tube gain stage so you can tube role.  CAL is out of business but some of the people from CAL are still around and servicing these.  I had a Sigma for years and never had any issue with it.  The ad doesn't say if this one has the 24/96 upgrade but I read some reviews that the stock one sounds better than the upgraded unit.  Only issue with this one is the seller has no feedback and there are no photos so I'd proceed with due caution but it is a good price on a very sweet DAC.   There is also this Musical Fidelity unit (http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?dgtlconv&1213068426) but I have not tried it, just their headphone amp which I like.  Either of these DACs would last through a few other compoent upgrades.

In your case I would probably go speakers, DAC, preamp and then reevaluate.  Note that I recommend from a limited number of makes because those are where I have experience.  Other people have wider experience and can provide a wider range of options.  Also check out nickspicks for reviews.

[StuStu]

I was running 2 Hafler 9130 with a vintage CJ PV11. I just picked some Cary monos, but I thought the Haflers were decent. I'd keep the Hafler amp for now as well. I think the audible difference in sound that you'll notice most is speakers. That being said, I would only take that step when I had enough money to purchase something high-end that you won't want to upgrade for a long time. I'm currently running vintage Legacy Audio Signature II's. They've been and still are fantastic speakers. But after sixteen years, it's time for me to start thinking ahead. I've even thought about adding mods and updating a few drivers. But sadly it's probably time to move on. IMO speaker technology seems to change much more rapidly than say amps and pres. And by all means, don't fear buying used gear. Audiophiles, like tapers, tend to baby their gear. In fact, the Cary's I just picked up came with some nice mods and lots of spare tubes from the previous owner. My first decent playback system took about two years to piece together. I suggest patiently researching and taking each step when feasible to do such. Best of luck to you!     

[daco63]

Thanks so much, guys.  I really appreciate the guidance.

I haven't even looked into buying speakers for more than a decade.  I see audiogon has a subscription service for bluebook values.  Sounds worthwhile for me to pay it in order to get up to speed with values... 

Von Schweikert, Legacy Audio...  any other "standard" speaker names out there for me to research that hold their value? 

Yeah, I like to solder, but I'm not knowledgable enough to plan my own mods.  I found diyaudio.com - any other recommended resources before I go hunting for info on Hafler upgrades?

How are you playing your recordings now?  If you make CDs, does your transport have an SPDIF out?  You might find that even a moderately priced outboard DAC could make a big improvement.

I used a modded UA-5 for years, typcially laptop > UA-5 > headphones or Behringer active monitors.  Just recently sold it, but I'll have a new USB/DAC/headphone amp all-in-one showing up this week (iBasso D2-Viper with swapped opamps) -- no SPDIF in or out.  My understanding is that the output levels aren't too far off, so that I should be able to send it to line-ins without pads.  I thought I'd wait for more 24/96+ USB 2.0 transports to show up on the market before I take the step into a new DAC, but I need to check my CD deck... if it has digi-out, I might look into the DAC sooner.  Otherwise for now I think laptop CD > Viper > pre-amp would be better than the Kenwood CD via RCA's.

Another planning question: How important are interconnects for where I'm at right now?  When the time comes, I'll most likely make my own, but for now I'm just using cheapies.  Where should interconnect upgrades fit in my priority list with this level of gear?  Which interconnects are most critical?

thanks again!!!

Dave

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

Von Schweikert, Legacy Audio...  any other "standard" speaker names out there for me to research that hold their value? 

Be careful about assuming a well respected piece will hold value.  imo opinion speakers lose value faster than active components because of the point posted above and because they are more easily abused.

In the case of VSA, I bought my speakers used at a 30% discount to retail about a year after they were released.  Within 6 months the rumors of a revised version got around and the market price dropped to 45% discount to retail where it sits today (though occasionally less).  But I accepted that I would take a hit going in early and I expect that I won't out grow these for many years, so for me it's a fair trade-off.  You have to make that judgement.

any other recommended resources before I go hunting for info on Hafler upgrades?

audioCircle.com
goolge

seriously, if you type in "hafler upgrade", google will return enough for you to waste a weekend reading.  many of the upgrades are based on replacing the "cost efficient" capacitors with better caps like blackgates or auricaps

Another planning question: How important are interconnects for where I'm at right now?  When the time comes, I'll most likely make my own, but for now I'm just using cheapies.  Where should interconnect upgrades fit in my priority list with this level of gear?  Which interconnects are most critical?

Interconnects are important but not so much right now.  If you are using the thin little RCA interconnects with molded plastic connectors that come in the box with your VCR, you would be well served to get some cables (it's like 10 guys on here who make and sell them) that have decent wire, good shielding, sturdy connectors that make a good connection, and a durable sheath.  I would get two pair ICs for your main path DAC->pre->amp and wait until later to upgrade the rest.  I hear cable differences in my system with repeatable results.  Price is not always an indicator of how well the cable will perform.  I sold some MIT330SII Shotguns for $350 that I replaced with a VenHaus pulsar cable I bought used for ~$90 because the pulsars sounded (subtley) better.  I've never tried any of the mega expensive cables but I tell my self I'm not missing anything ;-)

Don't forget good speaker wire.  Many have reported good results using a particular wire sold for extension cords at home depot.  Some guys here have used it.  I would use that with your new speakers before I spent any money on fancy cables. 

Just get some well constructed durable cables and you'll be fine for quite a while.  When you are ready to explore higher end ICs, there are lending libraries from which you can "rent" cables to try and the rent applies to purchsase.  That is a great option to try different cables in your target price range if you can't find someone local to loan you some cables.
 

[daco63]

Be careful about assuming a well respected piece will hold value.  imo opinion speakers lose value faster than active components because of the point posted above and because they are more easily abused.

In the case of VSA, I bought my speakers used at a 30% discount to retail about a year after they were released.  Within 6 months the rumors of a revised version got around and the market price dropped to 45% discount to retail where it sits today (though occasionally less).  But I accepted that I would take a hit going in early and I expect that I won't out grow these for many years, so for me it's a fair trade-off.  You have to make that judgement.

I'm going to buy used speakers for sure, and I'm really interested in the audiogon bluebook pricing charts and trends.  I'm hoping to find something a few years old at least with some semi-stable pricing history...  (sounds good in theory anyway , I haven't subscribed yet)

audioCircle.com
goolge

seriously, if you type in "hafler upgrade", google will return enough for you to waste a weekend reading. 

LOL.  I did google - that's why I thought I'd ask for shortcuts!    Thx for the audiocircle tip.

If you are using the thin little RCA interconnects with molded plastic connectors that come in the box with your VCR, you would be well served to get some cables...

I am, as a matter of fact.       I did a quick check and I see people use Canare StarQuad...  Cool! cuz I'm already into Canare for building mic and guitar cables.  I'll go ahead and build up some interconnects when I assemble the gear in the new room.     If I ever get it finished, that is.   

Don't forget good speaker wire.  Many have reported good results using a particular wire sold for extension cords at home depot.  Some guys here have used it.  I would use that with your new speakers before I spent any money on fancy cables. 

I do have some heavy guage speaker wire that I bought way back when.  I'll double check the specs and probably just put some new ends on that for now.

Piles of +T's for the piles of tips!   Big thanks.

[BC]

Not sure what your budget is, but some good speaker brands to consider are:

Paradigm
PSB
NHT
Von Schweikert
Monitor audio
B&W
Magnepan
Martin Logan
JM lab/focal
KEF
Epos
Sololoquy
Splendor
Joseph Audio

[daco63]

Terrific!  Thank you!

I don't know my speaker budget yet either.    Just trying to get a plan together...  I suppose I should plan for something that's on par with the quality of my amp and pre, but I haven't started looking and I haven't figured it out yet. 

Anyone want to recommended an appropriate budget for used speakers to match with a Hafler XL-280 and Denon PRA-1500?

Mostly makes a difference on how long I'll have to wait before I can do it.  I have some patience. 

[StuStu]

Terrific!  Thank you!

I don't know my speaker budget yet either.    Just trying to get a plan together...  I suppose I should plan for something that's on par with the quality of my amp and pre, but I haven't started looking and I haven't figured it out yet. 

Anyone want to recommended an appropriate budget for used speakers to match with a Hafler XL-280 and Denon PRA-1500?

Mostly makes a difference on how long I'll have to wait before I can do it.  I have some patience. 

If you know you'll eventually be upgrading your pre and amp, I'd think about higher end speakers that will be on par with the pre and amp you're planning on upgrading to. Ah, decisions...decisions...

[daco63]

If you know you'll eventually be upgrading your pre and amp, I'd think about higher end speakers that will be on par with the pre and amp you're planning on upgrading to. Ah, decisions...decisions...

Oh yeah, that's right!  Policy #2...

So how much?  Go ahead, I can take it...    :grimace:

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

If you know you'll eventually be upgrading your pre and amp, I'd think about higher end speakers that will be on par with the pre and amp you're planning on upgrading to.

This is exactly what I was going to post.  See my "policy #2"


You can get some killer monitors in the $600 range, like the VR1s in the link I posted.  If you can go as high as $1000, you're into heady floor stander category. 

[daco63]

This is exactly what I was going to post.  See my "policy #2"

You can get some killer monitors in the $600 range, like the VR1s in the link I posted.  If you can go as high as $1000, you're into heady floor stander category. 

The VR1 link is expired, and I missed the $600 comment first time...  A little slow today I guess  .  A lot to absorb too.  Yeah! Yeah, that's it.

I'll have to see, but "heady floor stander category" sure sounds gooood.   Hmmmm.  And my Hafler will do them justice?

I have to say, I was thinking active-monitor-direction before your advice, so I'm having to adjust my thinking here...  It makes sense that the steps are smaller with separate components, so upgrades are easier.  But as a check here, how do you think my hafler plus $600-$1000 (used) speakers would compare SQ-wise to trade in for actives?  Is there any advantages SQ-wise?

[edit: more plainer and understandabler writing-type words]

[StuStu]

This is exactly what I was going to post.  See my "policy #2"

You can get some killer monitors in the $600 range, like the VR1s in the link I posted.  If you can go as high as $1000, you're into heady floor stander category. 

The VR1 link is expired, and I missed the $600 comment first time...  A little slow today I guess  .  A lot to absorb too.  Yeah! Yeah, that's it.

I'll have to see, but "heady floor stander category" sure sounds gooood.   Hmmmm.  And my Hafler will do them justice?

I have to say, I was thinking active-monitor-direction before your advice, so I'm having to adjust my thinking here...  It makes sense that the steps are smaller with separate components, so upgrades are easier.  But as a check here, how do you think my hafler + 700 (used) speakers would compare SQ-wise trade in for actives?  Is there any advantages SQ-wise?

I advise going with the separate component mindset. If you were to buy killer speakers tomorrow with your current setup, you'd notice a HUGE difference right away. I assure you it will motivate you to start thinking about your next upgrade. I speak from experience there. As for what to spend...that's your call. If you initially think (E.G) $650, think about waiting a few extra months and spending $900 (E.G.)? IMO you should build your system around your speakers. If you think you'll be content with shelf speakers as opposed to towers, you can have a great system at a reasonable cost*. #2 way of thinking is very good advice.

*Reasonable cost is very subjective. Reasonable cost is something my brain seemingly fails to comprehend.      

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

If you go with powered speakers, combine your speaker and amp budget.  There are advantages to self powered speakers.  A normal amplifier has design tradeoffs to get a good linear response across the intended range.  The higher end self powered speakers use multiple amplifiers behind a crossover so they are internally an active bi-amp configuration with each amp specifically matched to the driver.  You can get some insane active speakers, like the Agantgarde Solo but I'm guessing you're budget is closer to mine.  I like having a seperate amp because I can try different amps or different speakers.  Also there are fewer options for high end self powered speakers and eventually I want to go multi channel.

So now that your head is spinning let me throw out something else to think about - multi channel.  There are a of really excellent 5.1 field recordings coming out now.  There are more people running 4 channels - just look at some of the recent threads about MS multi channel and mixing 2ch with sbd.  There are some really beautiful aud+sbd mixes of dead shows circulating as 5.1 mixes (props to dan). 

When I initially suggesting an integrated I was thinking of something like the sony str da-3000 that can be a really good option for 2-ch with a path towards 5.1.  When you find a line of speakers that you like, you can start with the monitors and have a very nice 2-ch system then add a matching sub to fill out the lower range.  Eventually, just add the matching towers and you have 4.1 using two of the remaining three power channels to bi-amp the main speakers.     

[daco63]

...think about waiting a few extra months and spending $900 (E.G.)? IMO you should build your system around your speakers.

Yep, I think that's what I'll do.  Gives me a little time to sell off some various things and get the room construction completed as well.  I'll have to see, but I'm pretty sure I can find a way to get into the upper end of that price range. I was afraid you guys were going to tell me $2k, which wouldn't fly.

Wow, I'm getting excited about this.  Extra motivation to get that room done.