Topic: My first digital recorder... one foot in the water

[mark_ivan]

New guy question.

Been reading through this website for the last week or so, lots of cool info here!

I am looking to make a leap forward from my trusty Sony WMD6C (cassette) and ECM999 mic.

Looking at the Busman BRC1 mic kit to augment the ECM999 stereo mic I already have.

Debating between an R44, FR2LE or Sony D50.

D50 has cool features, great battery life, ok internal mics (bright) which are handy sometimes, but no XLR balanced input or phantom power

FR2LE has some limiting features (blocky lcd vu meters, formatted CF cards, lousy int mics) but has XLR and phantom.

R44 has four inputs, FOUR! (ok this is the one I know the least about, but could see advantages to having another channel or two).

TO THE POINT...

There is (was?) a UA5 in the yard sale area.
Would a UA5 into the D50 likely be an improvement in sound over the D50 alone?
(I could always get an ART Phantom II, or any other phantom supply, for that shortcoming)                           

Any opinions on whether it would better the FR2LE?
I rented some mics, and like the sound from the FR2LE SLIGHTLY better than the D50 with ART PhII power (both were being fed by Rode NT1A mics). Both were set to 24/48.

I plan to record occasional unamplified performances of tabla and harmonium, wildlife sounds, ambient sounds, concerts, etc.. (so relative portability and battery options are high priorities, sound quality is the highest)

Any opinions greatly apprectiated!

[JiB97]

That UA-5 is a steal at that price and as you may know the UA-5 has a digital optical output with the ability to run 24-bit into the Sony D50.  I made a bunch of nice recordings with a stock UA-5 before moving on to an FR-2LE, but if you were inclined you could get that UA-5 modded by Busman and have it sound even "better."

That being said, if you are looking for simplicity at the a pretty low cost, and an all-in-one solution, the FR-2LE is a really nice option.  I have had no real problems with it in the two years I have owned it.  Plus, the battery life is ridiculous, I get around 10 hours when using a 4200mAh 7.2v battery.  You can also get this recorder modded by Busman or the Oade brothers(if bought from them).

Also you might want to check out the Marantz PMD 661 which might suit your needs.

[Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B)]

Where do you record most of the time?

If you record where it's easy to get a soundboard patch the R-44 would be my choice since you can mix the board and your mics.

If you mostly record bands without SBD access then, the FR2LE is a nice little machine.

Don't know much about the Sony.

I'm running the FR2LE and I'm happy with it. Very nice to have such a small all in one box.

[Belexes]

I have the D50 for low-pro recording but opt for the FR2-LE for open situations with the BSC1 mics. Check out recordings on Live Music Archive made with this lineage.  For under $1,000, you can make some very impressive recordings.

[mark_ivan]

Thanks for the insights.

It's pretty confusing with all the considerations to make:

[mark_ivan]

ooops, have to be careful with tab and enter keys   

The selection of gear available is incredible, but it also seems hard to make a choice.

Asking around at local music shops, many people have suggested using a laptop and USB or Firewire interface. However, I would like to have the portability of battery operated gear. Can't foresee requiring 'stealth' mode stuff, but relatively smaller packages are easier to have on hand and potentially set up.

(Not unlike cameras, I still enjoy my SLR film camera with a few lenses and flash, but it is much more of a task to lug it all around than having a digital P&S)

Having fooled around with a D50 and FR2LE, I think that, for me, I would supplement a D50 with at least a phantom power with XLR inputs (or UA5 with digimod, but not sure if that would better the D50 pre and A/D). Aside from the balanced issue and the phantom, the mini inputs just seem fragile and less robust in comparison. The internal mics on the D50 are SENSITIVE and DETAILED but not accurate to my ears at least, taking phones on and off while monitoring there is a big difference in sound. They are however head and shoulders above the FR2LE internals, which it seems are there... well... I am not sure why they are there.

Will probably use this recording setup for a variety of purposes, I am learning tabla, and want to record my lessons and my practice for self review. Plus the place that I am taking classes also puts on concerts (tabla, harmonium etc.) where people are open to my taping as well.

Generally though, I just get a kick out of recording stuff, and the more realistic the reproduction, the bigger it makes me smile when I listen to it. Whether it's live music, ambient sounds, whatever, there is something really cool about being able to 'recreate' something aurally(?).

I think my budget could stretch to about $1500 for everything, and since I am already pretty much sold on the versatility and learning potential of getting the Busman BSC1 mic kit, that leaves about $1000 for a recorder, or preamp recorder combo.

If I feel that I can get 99% there with spending less, I am certainly ok with that too.

The R44 is interesting in that I could place 3rd and 4th mics in different places and experiment with mixing them into the main stereo pair afterwards. I have read very little about the quality of the R44 sound though, and don't know if the preamps would equal or better the FR2LE, which itself I think might have marginally better sound than the D50 (could be the A/D too, or the balanced ins reducing noise, dunno).

Just need to get past this first step of picking a recorder.

Thanks for creating such a great space for people like me to learn!

[rjp]

Asking around at local music shops, many people have suggested using a laptop and USB or Firewire interface. However, I would like to have the portability of battery operated gear. Can't foresee requiring 'stealth' mode stuff, but relatively smaller packages are easier to have on hand and potentially set up.

I've found that USB audio and laptops can be a very tricky combination. I've had nothing but grief when I've tried to use my E-MU 0404 USB (recording or playback!) with three different laptops, even though it works flawlessly on my usual desktop system. IMO, it's better to get a device that's designed to record audio.

FWIW, the 0404 is at least usable as a standalone analog preamp into my LS-10... but I'm not sure I want to waste my time trying yet again to make it get along with a laptop.

Firewire might be a better bet, but I looked at the Presonus Firebox manual and found all sorts of caveats about incompatible chipsets.

[Fried Chicken Boy]

I have to agree with rjp on using a laptop and USB/Firewire interface.  Thankfully (and before I decided to invest in it myself), a friend of mine was using that type of setup when I helped him record a show.  He had already been using this rig for some time, had tweaked it and there seemed to still be an occasional hiccup.  Powering the whole shebang for a long set and all the additional wires appeared to add to the headache.  This was a couple years ago so maybe things have improved, but I steered clear.

Regarding recorders, I have friends that own FR2-LE's and I've heard some wonderful recordings done with that machine.  Since no one has said too much about the R-44, I'll give it props right now.  I bought one late last year, have recorded about 30+ hours of live music with it (yeah, I know, not much) and have absolutely no regrets about getting one.  Just a stock machine right out of the box and it has 4 very good mic pre's, quality guts, very easy to use and haven't had a single problem with it.  Sound quality, IMHO, is excellent and the general consensus seems to be that, both unmodded, it's a little better quality than the FR2-LE.  If you have the time, there's a long 3-part thread extolling the virtues of the R-44: http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,97214.0.html

As I believe might have been stated earlier, one of the best things for you to do is search through the Live Music Archive for particular mic/recorder combinations, listen to what you find and base your decisions on what sounds good to you.  If you'd like to hear one example of the R-44 in action, I started a thread looking for LD mic help and posted links to the results of AKG 414's straight into an R-44 pre's: http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,115986.0.html

Sorry for the ramble.  Good luck and happy listening!

[mark_ivan]

Thanks for the feedback, leaning towards the FR2LE but it does have some drawbacks:

- headphone amp and playback quality on the unit itself is not fantastic

- can't switch recording quality without changing or reformatting the CF card

- no digital in for things that like digital in

- can't load mp3s onto it from a computer (I think)

and for the life of me, can't figure out what the trim dials are used for given that you have separate gain contols (concentric dials), unless you have two mics of wildly different sensitivity being used at the same time.

[digifish_music]

New guy question.

D50 has cool features, great battery life, ok internal mics (bright) which are handy sometimes, but no XLR balanced input or phantom power

FR2LE has some limiting features (blocky lcd vu meters, formatted CF cards, lousy int mics) but has XLR and phantom.

R44 has four inputs, FOUR! (ok this is the one I know the least about, but could see advantages to having another channel or two).

..

Any opinions greatly apprectiated!

R44 has LOUSY internal mics too

...

www.digifishmusic.com/public/articles/edirol_recorder_mics.htm

digifish

[Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B)]

Thanks for the feedback, leaning towards the FR2LE but it does have some drawbacks:

- headphone amp and playback quality on the unit itself is not fantastic

- can't switch recording quality without changing or reformatting the CF card

- no digital in for things that like digital in

- can't load mp3s onto it from a computer (I think)

and for the life of me, can't figure out what the trim dials are used for given that you have separate gain contols (concentric dials), unless you have two mics of wildly different sensitivity being used at the same time.

1. Headphone amp...not something I look for in a recorder. If you really want you can go RCA out of the FR2LE into a better headphone amp.

2. Formatting the CF card takes about 1 minute (tops). I always run 24/48 now, and I just make sure I format all of the cards I plan on using for the night at home.

3. No digi in's suck, but if you want a small all in one box they aren't needed. If you want to run an external pre / A>D then yes they would be handy.

4. I don't understand why you'd want to load MP3's onto it. It's pretty large for a MP3 player. Not something I'd want to tote around.

5. I set the trim knobs to about 1 o'clock. Haven't touched them since. If someone else can give a more detailed explanation for them...I'd love to hear it. I rarely have to adjust my levels. Seems like I can just leave them the same way everytime and peak between -12 and -6db

All of that being said...I'd like to upgrade to a R-44 sometime in the near future. I frequently get to run on stage and mix with the SBD at one venue...also I record at Red Rocks a lot and would love to run omnis + cards (or hypers) > 4 channels.

If cost were no option...I'd get the R-44. If it is, and you don't need 4 channels often...the FR2LE is a great little box. Like I said before, I don't know shit about the D50.

I love the all in one box option. So easy to carry everything. Good luck with your search.

[mark_ivan]

Thanks for the info!

Making progress as I ordered the BSC1 mike kit from Busman audio today.

A bit of a leap for me in itself since I have never played with them, or seen them reviewed or commented on other than this site!

However, have listened online to recordings made with them, which sound pretty good, and the interchangeable caps will allow me experiment and learn about different patterns.

Now for the recorder...

Fostex issues I mentioned above.

Sony D50 has really good (but not excellent) internal mics, smaller size, astounding battery life, great headphone amp, good user menus/interface, and really good sound with an external battery box powering Rode condensers. The VU meters are fast and show peak, it has built in memory, and file transfer between PC and recorder back and forth is fast and easy.
But ultimately the external mic sound is not as open or dynamic as the Fostex, and the mini connectors durability worry me more on this unit than it ever did with my WMD6C (this just seems prettier and more delicate).

UA5 and JB3/MTII/H120 - have considered and made offers on a few of these combinations, predominantly because of the number of people here still using some variation of this combo.
Concerns for me are slower transfer speed, multiple rechargeables to manage, lack of 24bit in some cases, and frankly, a dependance on hard drives, pots, switches and other mechanical hardware that were manufactured many moons ago, and in most cases have seen lots of use.

If this is the biggest dilemma of my life though, I guess I can't complain too much.

[setboy]

1. Headphone amp...not something I look for in a recorder. If you really want you can go RCA out of the FR2LE into a better headphone amp.

the headphone out is not that bad either.

[dorrcoq]

Making progress as I ordered the BSC1 mike kit from Busman audio today.

I'm waiting for mine to arrive!  Hard to beat what he includes for the price.

[Panthro10]

I'm hoping mine come in today. I was in the same situation these past 2 weeks - trying to decide on what to buy for my first rig. I went with the fr2le because of the price and it being my first rig. I think if I really enjoy it I may upgrade to an r-4 in a year or so.. But I didn't want to spend that much justto get started. I found an fr2le on clearance at guitar center for $350!

[rastasean]

the R44 is very tempting but I think the price of it will come down pretty soon to make it more tempting BUT then you have to make sure you're using decent mics in it in order to balance out the price. Why spend $800 on a recorder and then $200 on a pair of mics. Don't get me wrong, you can get great sound from the $200 pair but don't spend $800 on a recorder then.

Quite honestly, all your choices are great and now its just a matter of the size you want to lug around. Owning the 2LE, its very light and probably about the same as D50.

- can't switch recording quality without changing or reformatting the CF card [on the 2LE]

I do understand that frustration but if you have a large enough card, format it the way you want (16/44, 24/48) and forget about it.

[stevetoney]

^ I'll differ a little bit on your 'why spend $800' comment above, Rasta.  The appeal of the R44 of course is 4 channels and most people use the second set of channels for the occasions that they can get SBD access.  If you matrix a SBD together with ANY ambient sound source, whether from a $200 pair of mics or a $2000 pair, the results usually sound really great!  It's pretty nice having those two extra channels available for the times when they might be needed.  The other thing is that the next more expensive 4 channel recorder is the 744, at $3600 or so!  I was actaully thinking for that reason that the price of the R44 might creep upward a bit...as it has since it was first introduced.  Demand still seems quite high for the R44 too.  But who knows?

There's also the benefit that the R-44s stock preamps have been critiqued by our members and they're reporting them as being very quiet and nice sounding, although I think the FR2LEs stock electronics hold their own also.

[sunjan]

The other thing is that the next more expensive 4 channel recorder is the 744, at $3600 or so! 

Don't forget about R-4 and R-4 Pro... But they're not as portable, I guess that disqualifies them in this respect.

[mark_ivan]

The R44 is getting more investigation/consideration, based on a the following few facts:

- I could spend up to about $1000 on a recorder or pre/recorder combo so it is within budget (R4 Pro and SD items are unfortunately too much for me right now)
- higher gain than the FR2LE (56dB vs 40bB I think) which would be handy for VERY quiet or distant sources, or quiet mics like my Sony ECM999 (-48dB)
- comments on the preamp quality put the R44 at or above the FR2LE
- digital in (not sure if I would use this, but like having the option)
- usb transfer (although reportedly a bit sluggish) vs firewire as on the HP-D2 (another interest)
- still pretty small and decent battery time
- like the idea of being able to set up two 'instrument' (?) mics and two 'room' (?) mics and mix together afterwards.

Four channels does however feel a bit like overkill for my first digital recorder, and distracting from the fundamentals of getting good sound from a stereo pair.

Still feel good about my Busman BSC1 mic decision, after a moments hesitation over the lower sensitivity (9mV from 94dB @ 1KHz). They should be in hand next week.
Ordering some Canare Quad and Neutriks from FullCompass to make cables, but the recorder selection is still a horse race....

[stevetoney]

- digital in (not sure if I would use this, but like having the option)

This is indeed a nice to have feature, if only to provide added flexibility for your recorder.

- still pretty small and decent battery time

I've had both and I'd say that the FR2LE and R-44 are pretty close to the same overall size.

- like the idea of being able to set up two 'instrument' (?) mics and two 'room' (?) mics and mix together afterwards.

For sure a nice feature.

Four channels does however feel a bit like overkill for my first digital recorder, and distracting from the fundamentals of getting good sound from a stereo pair.

I personally wouldn't consider it overkill or distracting...I mean you haven't considered going for a mic set with a full compliment of capsules to be overkill over distracting, have you.  I think it's good decision making whereas lots of us went through a progression to get to the point where you are now!  Look at it this way...basically for another couple bills you're adding two more channels.  Otherwise it's just a nice low profile recorder with a great feature set.  It's hard to argue with people that suggest that the R-44 provides the best bang for buck out there right now.

[notlance]

Still feel good about my Busman BSC1 mic decision, after a moments hesitation over the lower sensitivity (9mV from 94dB @ 1KHz).

Recording classical music with the Busman mics I have not had a problem with low sensitivity.  I you want low sensitivity, take a look at  some (but not all) of the ribbon mics out there.

[deadheadcorey]

the prices for the ua-5's are a freaking steal, pick one up if you can....


busman mics totaly kick ass

[mark_ivan]

An X2 came up on YS, so I bought it.

Have the impression, that although it does not have digital out, it is a very good sounding pre.
Not sure if it is better than a modded (not just digi) UA-5, but hoping it might be (?)

So.

BUSMAN BSC1 KIT >> X2 >> ??

Still hunting, FR2LE is a nice sounding recorder but is a bit bulky, H120 etc only has 16bit, MTII sounds like it comes with occasional freeze issues.

Would like to find something small with good sounding line inputs (XLR or 1/4" ideally, phantom not required), 24 bit capability, and that can function on its own as a good portable playback unit with headphones.

[Brian Skalinder]

For small with good sound, the Edirol R-09HR is tough to beat.  Two "drawbacks":  <1>  less robust 1/8" stereo input (though not really an issue, there are lots of people using this recorder!), and <2> you can't run your mics directly into the recorder;  you'll always have to use the X2 or other device(s) that provide phantom power and gain.  If you want the option of slimming down and leaving the X2 at home sometimes, you can't do it with this option.

In order of smaller to bigger, there's also the Tascam DR-100, Marantz PMD-661, and FR-2LE.  All three will allow you to slim down the gear -- leave the X2 at home -- for those occasions (if) you wish to do so.  All three devices support playback, but I can't speak to specific playback quality.  What kind of playback are we talking?  Monitoring recordings, listening to recordings in the field,  portable / personal music player?

[DSatz]

mark_ivan, I know nothing about Busman mikes, but 9 mV/Pa (1 Pa = ca. 94 dB SPL) is NOT a low level of sensitivity; it is an absolutely typical level of sensitivity for professional studio condenser microphones.

Let me see if I can put this into some perspective. Every mike preamp, and the mike input circuit of every recorder or mixer, has some voltage that is the maximum it can accept without distorting. The designers have some idea in mind as to how their equipment will be used and what kinds of microphones it will be used with, and they make their design choices on that basis, which may or may not be an accurate guess as to how you or I will use their gear.

The choices that they make vary all over the lot--some preamps and recorders overload at 50 - 100 mV because they were built on the assumption that consumer (dynamic or low-output electret) microphones would be used and/or only moderate sound levels would be picked up. Others who know the professional environment a little better might set that limit at around half a Volt; still others go even higher (I like those people)--there are even a few preamps that can take 10 Volts of "microphone-level" input without flinching.

Keep in mind that this input voltage limit can be (and very often is) completely independent of how the gain controls of the unit are set. When too high a voltage is coming in, the first active device in the circuit is being pushed into clipping, and in many/most microphone input circuits that's before the point where the gain control has any effect at all. So at that point you could say that the gain control is merely deciding how much to amplify an already distorted signal.

For example, with the portable Sony DAT recorders TCD-D7 and TCD-D8, if you have to set the gain knob below about 3-1/2 to prevent the meters from reaching 0 dB, the mike inputs are being overloaded. As far as sound quality is concerned, you're no better off reducing the levels on the meter, because the signals are already distorted just as badly at the first circuit stage. This unfortunately is typical of what happens when consumer recording equipment is used with microphones that have professional sensitivity levels.

Now, why would people want microphones to have even higher sensitivity? The reason most often given is to drown out the noise of a microphone preamp. People don't want to crank the gain up too high on their preamp or recorder because they'll hear some hiss that way. But the venue where you're recording has some ambient noise level and your microphones have an "ambient" noise level, and it's important to be realistic about those two sources of noise in relation to the preamp noise.

I'm not saying that preamp noise is never a factor, but I am saying that (a) the level of hiss you hear when you turn up the gain on a recorder with no microphone connected (which is what a lot of people use as their point of reference) can be much higher than the hiss you would hear if an impedance similar to that of a microphone was plugged in to the mike inputs of the recorder, so one's fear of turning up the gain knob can get exaggerated that way; (b) good studio condenser microphones may well have output noise levels 15 to 20 dB higher than the input noise levels of good preamps, especially at low and mid frequencies; by the time you account for this, there isn't nearly as much difference among the combined noise levels of microphone and preamp combinations as you might expect if you consider the two components separately; and (c) the noise of almost any live recording venue I've ever worked in (and I'm a classical music engineer) swamps both of those other noise sources by a country mile, especially if there's an audience.

So I don't wish that my microphones had higher sensitivity. I actually have recorded a lot of early music, including instruments such as the clavichord which never put out more sound volume than a quiet speaking voice, but I'm not fool enough to mike them from 30 feet away with a pair of Beyer M 160s (1 mV/Pa ribbons which are actually very nice mikes, apart from that) and if I were fool enough, I wouldn't blame my equipment. Nor would select my equipment so that I could make such a foolish engineering choice, at the cost of not being able to record things at normally high volume levels.

Does that make sense?

--best regards

[mark_ivan]

Thanks very much for the information.

I think my earlier statement was based on my limited knowledge:
- Rode NT1A have 25mV sensitivity
- Oade site recommends mics with at least 15mV sensitivity for 'ambient' recording
- I have a Fostex FR2LE temporarily in my clutches, and it has only 40dB gain (I think)

In some of the recording situations that I anticipate, I might not always be able to close mic the acoustic instruments I would like to record, and thought that higher sensitivity mics would 'compensate' for the low(?!) gain of the fostex pre.

Recently I have purchased a used Wendt X2 pre, which I am hoping will provide clean gain in excess of what the Fostex (if that is what I end up buying) would provide for situations of low volume recording with insufficient access to the source.

I recently found out about the open circuit preamp noise vs mic loaded noise issue, and made some 500ohm stubs to listen to a Sony DC50s internal noise, and you are right, there is a big difference.

However, if looking for manufacturing variations between the same products (two D50s lets say, and there were significant differences), wouldn't comparing unloaded mic noise from one unit to the other be as valid as loaded noise to see if one is overall quieter?

In the end though, your sobering comments about overall system noise (inherrent mic noise etc.) would appear to make a search for low noise, beyond a reasonable point (the noisiest link in the chain), wasted cost and effort.

I guess at this point I am looking for a recorder with :
- digital input (just in case)
- excellent sound using line in (for with the X2)
- phantom would be nice but not required
- xlr or 1/4" inputs (balanced ideally) would appear to be more reliable over time
- USB 2.0 transfer
- 24 bit (sounds like there are good reasons to go this way if it is available)
- ability to act as a stand alone portable playback system with high quality headphone amp

Alternatively, if I can find a smokin deal on an FR2LE, I might get that AND a used H120 for portable quality playback of wav/mp3 and potential recording.

[DSatz]

mark_ivan, I think you understood everything I was saying quite well, and your list of features you want in a recorder makes good sense to me, too.

I own a number of professional-quality mike preamps, some of which are highly portable and others of which are, shall we say, "luggable" at best. Not long ago I set up an experiment in which I measured the noise of about ten different models, when all of them were set for the same level of gain--around the gain level I most often find myself using for live concert recording.

What I connected to the inputs of all the preamps was an actual microphone body with a "measurement test head" (basically, a well-shielded capacitor with the right connectors attached) substituted for the capsule. Not only does this present the same output impedance to the mike preamp as would usually be in place during a recording, but the phantom powering was turned on, so the microphone was actually generating the same noise levels that it always does.

The result was that under those conditions, to my surprise, all the preamps came out within 2 dB of one another in their unweighted rms noise voltage. If weighting was applied, the differences increased somewhat, and the particulars of the weighting could determine the relative ranking of the preamps. But there were no "night and day" differences, despite rather large differences in cost and reputation.

I think a big part of the reason is that I wasn't using extreme gain settings. Most preamps get their best noise specifications at their maximum gain settings, so that's what you always see listed on the spec sheet. But I was operating some 20-25 dB below that in general, as I think most people do most of the time. So I find that the search for the very quietest preamp may be less important than it might seem.

--best regards