Topic: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 3)

[Artstar]

I was able to discover some "secrets" of M10: 

#1: The AD/DA-converter, the headphone amp and the mic amp is all together combined in just one chip: the Cirrus Logic CS42L52. I don't know if this can be interpreted as good ore bad, because the specs are not that stunning. Nevertheless the sq says: good.

I noticed that chip when I opened mine up. The specs may not be as stunning as you might like to expect but for portable equipment, it's about as good as it gets and that's pretty damn good!

#2: The M10 contains a lithium battery for memory backup purposes, type MS614SE. When emptied one day, good luck replacing it. 

Saw that in there too. With the right tools and skills, no problem.

Have you managed to gain access to a service manual for this unit? I'm looking at buying it soon if I have to but would have preferred a PDF or scan of it from somewhere.

[illconditioned]

I was able to discover some "secrets" of M10: 

#1: The AD/DA-converter, the headphone amp and the mic amp is all together combined in just one chip: the Cirrus Logic CS42L52. I don't know if this can be interpreted as good ore bad, because the specs are not that stunning. Nevertheless the sq says: good.

#2: The M10 contains a lithium battery for memory backup purposes, type MS614SE. When emptied one day, good luck replacing it. 

#3: The mic capsules have the marking H9804, diameter 10mm, thickness 4.7mm. Unfortunately I could not find out the manufacturer or any technical specification until now.

Cheers,

Martin

Thanks for the information.


Question: are there any opamps in there?  In the PCM-D50 there are opamps for both mic (preamp) and line level (buffer before ADC).  I expect there is something, because of the analog level control, and also the very low noise on the mic inputs.


  Richard

[M-chen]

Question: are there any opamps in there?  In the PCM-D50 there are opamps for both mic (preamp) and line level (buffer before ADC).  I expect there is something, because of the analog level control, and also the very low noise on the mic inputs.

Yes, there is. On the audio board there are three or four different opamps, but I do not know what type and for what exactly.

Have you managed to gain access to a service manual for this unit?

Unfortunately not, but I also would appreciate that very much.

Cheers,

Martin

[twoheadedboy]

I've researched all these threads and I'm either not finding the answer to the question I have or not understanding what I'm seeing, so I'm asking it now...between the D10 and R-09HR, which performs better through the LINE input? I've seen a lot of comparisons of mic input noise (mostly Leonard's), but not line. I use a preamp so I'm not concerned with the mic input.

Any answers, or responses pointing me to where this was answered previously, would be most appreciated.

[illconditioned]

I've researched all these threads and I'm either not finding the answer to the question I have or not understanding what I'm seeing, so I'm asking it now...between the D10 and R-09HR, which performs better through the LINE input? I've seen a lot of comparisons of mic input noise (mostly Leonard's), but not line. I use a preamp so I'm not concerned with the mic input.

Any answers, or responses pointing me to where this was answered previously, would be most appreciated.

I think there are a lot of advantages to the M10, including battery life (12hrs continuous recording, stays in "standby" mode forever) and ergonomics (leds on the top to watch in your pocket).  I also think the preamp will turn out to useful.  In fact, Guysonic himself suggests it can power his mics directly, without a preamp or battery box, so this setup would be ideal for you.  In my opinion, the less in the input chain, the better.  Also you don't have to worry about extra connections or and batteries in your preamp.  I run Countryman B3 directly into the M10 and love it!


  Richard

[twoheadedboy]

I've researched all these threads and I'm either not finding the answer to the question I have or not understanding what I'm seeing, so I'm asking it now...between the D10 and R-09HR, which performs better through the LINE input? I've seen a lot of comparisons of mic input noise (mostly Leonard's), but not line. I use a preamp so I'm not concerned with the mic input.

Any answers, or responses pointing me to where this was answered previously, would be most appreciated.

I think there are a lot of advantages to the M10, including battery life (12hrs continuous recording, stays in "standby" mode forever) and ergonomics (leds on the top to watch in your pocket).  I also think the preamp will turn out to useful.  In fact, Guysonic himself suggests it can power his mics directly, without a preamp or battery box, so this setup would be ideal for you.  In my opinion, the less in the input chain, the better.  Also you don't have to worry about extra connections or and batteries in your preamp.  I run Countryman B3 directly into the M10 and love it!


  Richard

I'm quite aware of the benefits of the M10 vs. R-09HR (and vice versa) at this point...I'm just curious about line-in performance (self-noise/noise floor, frequency response/coloration) between the two as all the data I've seen focuses on mic in only.

[earmonger]

I'm just curious about line-in performance (self-noise/noise floor, frequency response/coloration) between the two as all the data I've seen focuses on mic in only.

Guysonic to the rescue:

http://taperssection.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=5168d7cba3720ca7e4ba64e8cccaeae5&topic=124639.msg1722123#msg1722123

[Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B)]

Had a little issue today with the maiden voyage with my M10 (at least for music).

I bought a 8GB MicroSD card, and it gave me some issues when I put it in the deck. Tried to format in the deck, no go (gave me an error). Put it in my desktop and formatted without issue. Put it back in the M10 and formatted it again (worked fine). So I thought I was good to go. Nope.

Ran for Drive-By Truckers today and recorded for at least a few minutes fine (it was working when I checked my levels during the first song). At the end of the set it said something like File Error.

So...moral of the story:

ALWAYS TEST ALL NEW GEAR for the time of an actual show. I should have made a test recording. I didn't and it bit me in the ass.

I'm certain it was the external card, as after the DBT set I moved over to the internal memory and recorded the rest of the day (this was at MHMF) without issue.

[Artstar]

Had a little issue today with the maiden voyage with my M10 (at least for music).

I bought a 8GB MicroSD card, and it gave me some issues when I put it in the deck. Tried to format in the deck, no go (gave me an error). Put it in my desktop and formatted without issue. Put it back in the M10 and formatted it again (worked fine). So I thought I was good to go. Nope.

What brand card? I'm very firm on my choice of memory cards and have always used Sandisk for all my memory card needs as they've always been very reliable. I have a Sandisk Mobile Ultra 16GB card in mine and it hasn't skipped a beat in the 9 months I've been using it.

[twoheadedboy]

I'm just curious about line-in performance (self-noise/noise floor, frequency response/coloration) between the two as all the data I've seen focuses on mic in only.

Guysonic to the rescue:

http://taperssection.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=5168d7cba3720ca7e4ba64e8cccaeae5&topic=124639.msg1722123#msg1722123

Looks like that's mic vs. line dangit. Am I interpreting right to say that the baseline noise on the D10 is lower, but the bass rolls off a little quicker, however the R-09HR has a "lot" (relative) more noise above 10khz? I'm looking at the red line on picture 1 and the yellow one on picture 2.

[guysonic]

Fortunately, 09HR LINE input with your external preamplifier has NO high frequency noise issues only experienced with the Edirol's mic input.  The 09HR with PA-3SX or PA-24 model preamp is my choice of top quality portable configuration for doing 24bit 88.2K mode recording. 

The Sony's have no 88.2K mode, but the M10 is my choice for smallest size, longest running 2-piece DSM mic+flash deck rig when 24bit 44.1K for audio only recording is plenty good enough, or 24bit 48/96K sound for video is required.

[Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B)]

Had a little issue today with the maiden voyage with my M10 (at least for music).

I bought a 8GB MicroSD card, and it gave me some issues when I put it in the deck. Tried to format in the deck, no go (gave me an error). Put it in my desktop and formatted without issue. Put it back in the M10 and formatted it again (worked fine). So I thought I was good to go. Nope.

What brand card? I'm very firm on my choice of memory cards and have always used Sandisk for all my memory card needs as they've always been very reliable. I have a Sandisk Mobile Ultra 16GB card in mine and it hasn't skipped a beat in the 9 months I've been using it.

Kingston. It's this one:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820134717

Maybe I just got a dud. It's a Class 4 card. I'm under the impression that is fast enough (or do I need something faster).

[Artstar]

The Sandisk is also a class 4 and is more than adequate for even the highest recording bitrates. In fact, class 4 is actually good for low-bitrate video recording so it's all good.

I'm quite surprised with your Kingston and I'd be inclined to think that you've just got a dud. I'd look at getting it replaced under warranty if that's the case or otherwise see if you can exchange it for the same card as mine.

[kleiner Rainer]

I was able to discover some "secrets" of M10: 

...

#2: The M10 contains a lithium battery for memory backup purposes, type MS614SE. When emptied one day, good luck replacing it. 

Hi Martin,

from my knowledge of the internals of such devices, the Lithium battery is there to power the built in real time clock only if the main batteries fail. Real time clock chips are designed for ultra low current consumption during standby, so the lifetime of a standard Lithium battery is measured in years (in fact, the self discharge of those batteries can be higher than the current consumption of the RTC chip!)

Your info was very valuable, since I could find the data sheet for the battery:
http://speed.sii.co.jp/data/file_PRODUCT_MASTER_50112_TITLE_IMAGESP.pdf

The battery is made by a japanese company named Seiko Instruments. As you can see, the battery is rechargeable, and the worst case lifetime is 100 full charge/discharge cycles, or 1000 cycles with 20% discharge. All in all, I expect it to last many years (but there is always a statistical risk of early failure). Since Seiko Instruments is no chinese backyard operation, but a very renowned manufacturer, I trust the data in the data sheet.

Greetings,

Rainer

[guysonic]

I would guess that kind of battery should last for well over 10 years, easily exceeding the service life of the deck when the mechanical buttons wear out or something else fails to work anylonger.