Topic: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 3)

[rastasean]

another reason it may not work is because it is in upside down, the metal prongs actually go in facing up.

[spyder9]

so i know its been said that as low as 3 was "normal" with no gain or attenuation but i was much higher then that

I might have missed it, but I never heard of anyone saying that. Guysonic did his famous tests on the M10 and said the unity gain setting was about 6 which is pretty close to the results you got.

I compared the unity gain of the M10 to the Edirol R09HR recently.  The HR set at 40 and the M10 set at 5.  M10's files were about 1 db louder than R09HR.  Did Guysonic measure the HR' sunity gain?

[fmaderjr]

Did Guysonic measure the HR's unity gain?

I'm not aware that he did, but Chris Church once posted this:
"Unity gain on the R-09 HR is a setting -38 with a -10 db input with a 5k
output impedance from the source. So setting #38 for most sources via the
line input will produce a wav file of the same amplitude of the input signal
as seen at the line input".

[crbatt]

Thank you very much U~Ca^ and fmaderjr for the replies and recommendations. I'll use them to research a little further. I really appreciate your time!

[Artstar]

I cannot get the m10 to recognize my brand new Sandisk 8gb micro sd. Pretty sure it's class 2 but I don't see why that would matter as it should still be plenty fast for even the highest bit rate and sampling rate.

WTF? I am a Sandisk diehard but this is just crap. What sd card will work with the m10?

I use a 16GB Sandisk Mobile Ultra which is recognised every time without fail. Either you got a dud card or the unit is just being really picky.

[willndmb]

so i know its been said that as low as 3 was "normal" with no gain or attenuation but i was much higher then that

I might have missed it, but I never heard of anyone saying that. Guysonic did his famous tests on the M10 and said the unity gain setting was about 6 which is pretty close to the results you got.

I compared the unity gain of the M10 to the Edirol R09HR recently.  The HR set at 40 and the M10 set at 5.  M10's files were about 1 db louder than R09HR.  Did Guysonic measure the HR' sunity gain?

i knew i read people getting different results
some as low as 3 or 4 if i recall
for me i got 6.5 if i was on 4 i would have dropped down 4 to 6db

silver - you have to change the hrs from whatever it is on now to go around the clock
ie if it says 3:30:am you need to change the 3 past 12 and back to 3, it will change the am to pm automatically

[morst]

another reason it may not work is because it is in upside down, the metal prongs actually go in facing up.

Yep, there's a diagram on the back cover showing exactly which way to insert the MicroSD or M2 cards.

Got my case in the mail yesterday. Nice case, certainly better than nothing. I'd be pissed if I paid $30 for it though.

Is the the "freebate" case? How long ago did you send off for it? They say 8-12 weeks, I'm wondering when to "expect" mine. Thanks.

[Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B)]

Mine took a couple of months to arrive.

[aaronji]

ok so i finally got around to running my own line in test on the levels...
i made a white noise file in audacity and ran it to my svu1
the svu1 was showing me -3db
i unhooked the svu1 and replaced it with the m10
in order to get the m10 to show me -3db i had to set it on 6.5
for every number i went down the db went down 2 to 3

Doesn't this assume that 0 dB on both the SVU-1 and the M10 are with respect to the same reference point?  I am not so sure that's a good assumption.  Beechtek says that 0 dB on the meter is -10 dBu (http://www.beachtek.com/pdf/SVU-1instructions.pdf), but I haven't seen a similar number for the M10.  I seem to recall reading somewhere here that the M10 can take a pretty hot line-in signal (somewhere north of 20 dBu?); if that's true, it would suggest that -3 dB on the M10 is hotter than -3 dB on the SVU-1...Or am I completely missing something here?

so i know its been said that as low as 3 was "normal" with no gain or attenuation but i was much higher then that

I might have missed it, but I never heard of anyone saying that.

johnw posted it in another thread:  http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=138489.msg1795110#msg1795110

[willndmb]

i have no clue aaron
anyone else???

EDIT - aaron is onto somethign with my test
this time i put the white noise file on a cd and played it on the stereo
the m10 was set at 4 for unity

[Geissler]

Just got the M10 and this is by far the most extensive discussion on the thing, so I have a couple of questions:

1. Why can't I browse my folders while playing back music?
2. Is there any way to set the recording folder, so I can record to "2" instead of "1", for example, or is the next one only used when the first one is full with 99 tracks?
3. regarding cross-memory recording, is there any way to show all the files (both internal and external) while browsing? When internal memory is exceeded, what happens? Is the track split? Would you still have to change the view in the menu to see the excess files?

A couple of other things I've noticed disappoint me, coming from a MZ-R50 minidisc:
1. t-mark adds an entirely useless pseudo-marker instead of actually splitting the track. A real split requires extensive and tedious menu-digging which discourages one from using the feature altogether.
2. tracks can't be renamed on the fly.

On the other hand, the battery life is monstrous, sound quality is fantastic, huge amounts of memory and being able to plug into a computer is glorious. It's quite sad that sony still hasn't managed to release a player that matches their best minidiscs (because let's face it, if anyone is going to do it it's sony).
I'm seriously considering returning it and waiting for the next generation, especially since the firmware can't be upgraded.
Anyone want to talk me out of it?

[illconditioned]

Just got the M10 and this is by far the most extensive discussion on the thing, so I have a couple of questions:

1. Why can't I browse my folders while playing back music?
2. Is there any way to set the recording folder, so I can record to "2" instead of "1", for example, or is the next one only used when the first one is full with 99 tracks?
3. regarding cross-memory recording, is there any way to show all the files (both internal and external) while browsing? When internal memory is exceeded, what happens? Is the track split? Would you still have to change the view in the menu to see the excess files?

A couple of other things I've noticed disappoint me, coming from a MZ-R50 minidisc:
1. t-mark adds an entirely useless pseudo-marker instead of actually splitting the track. A real split requires extensive and tedious menu-digging which discourages one from using the feature altogether.
2. tracks can't be renamed on the fly.

On the other hand, the battery life is monstrous, sound quality is fantastic, huge amounts of memory and being able to plug into a computer is glorious. It's quite sad that sony still hasn't managed to release a player that matches their best minidiscs (because let's face it, if anyone is going to do it it's sony).
I'm seriously considering returning it and waiting for the next generation, especially since the firmware can't be upgraded.
Anyone want to talk me out of it?

If you add track marks they show up in some programs.  I think Adobe Audition shows them.  Maybe other software as well.  The question of marks vs. splitting I think is a matter of preference -- some people might want marks and not splits.  I agree, there should be a separate button for splits, though.


  Richard

[Geissler]

Thanks, Richard. I found the track splitting really useful for discarding dead time at the start and end of tracks. Then again, I suppose onboard editing HAD to be more elegant with the R50 because there was no way of connecting it to a computer...

[Artstar]

Just got the M10 and this is by far the most extensive discussion on the thing, so I have a couple of questions:

1. Why can't I browse my folders while playing back music?

Firmware limitation I suppose. Perhaps it was considered an unnecessary feature?

2. Is there any way to set the recording folder, so I can record to "2" instead of "1", for example, or is the next one only used when the first one is full with 99 tracks?

Of course you can. While the unit is stopped, hit the folder button, choose which folder you want to record into and away you go.

3. regarding cross-memory recording, is there any way to show all the files (both internal and external) while browsing?

Not really. The best overview you'll get of that nature is when it's plugged into your PC and you're browsing the volumes.

When internal memory is exceeded, what happens? Is the track split?

If you mean going from internal to external memory, of course it is. Same applies if it's vice versa.

Would you still have to change the view in the menu to see the excess files?

If you mean the view from internal to external memory (or vice versa), yes.

A couple of other things I've noticed disappoint me, coming from a MZ-R50 minidisc:
1. t-mark adds an entirely useless pseudo-marker instead of actually splitting the track. A real split requires extensive and tedious menu-digging which discourages one from using the feature altogether.

Having started with an MZ-R50 back in 1998 and moving on to an MZ-NH1 in 2004 (followed by an MZ-RH1 in 2007), I know what you mean but this is a more professional device compared to the MD units (even though they've been used by many a professional in various industries). As such, it is assumed that you will be editing the recordings using equally professional software which supports the markers and from which you can create your physical tracks if writing to CD or splitting out to separate files.

2. tracks can't be renamed on the fly.

Never really cared for it since I'm mainly stealth recording. I'm happy to rename after all is said and done with the recording.

On the other hand, the battery life is monstrous, sound quality is fantastic, huge amounts of memory and being able to plug into a computer is glorious.

Correct.

It's quite sad that sony still hasn't managed to release a player that matches their best minidiscs (because let's face it, if anyone is going to do it it's sony).

Being the proud owner of their best Minidisc units, I really don't see what it is that makes you hold them in higher regard than the PCM-M10 or even the PCM-D50 (I have both). The fact of the matter is, Minidisc is limited to recording 44.1kHz at 16 bit. As much as it had its professional applications, it was never a true professional recorder given its limited technical capability. That's not to say that Minidisc was crap. In fact, I still don't use anything other than my MDX-C8900 head unit in my car! I have produced some spectacular recordings with all my Minidisc units but the PCM-M10/D50 just takes it far beyond that and best of all, when travelling overseas, I don't have to worry about stocking up on Minidiscs, particularly with it now being a dead format. Yes, I was saddened when Sony announced they were going to kill off the format - though it would've been nice if they retained ATRAC in their car audio department as it is by far the most superior compression algorithm. That said, despite having lost the ideal replacement for cassettes and being an excellent (and more rugged) alternative to CDs, Sony did well to replace them with flash-based recorders which not only fit the bill but exceeded it with higher sampling and bit resolutions.

I'm seriously considering returning it and waiting for the next generation, especially since the firmware can't be upgraded.
Anyone want to talk me out of it?

No. Only you know what's right for you. You don't need anyone to talk you out of anything. You just need to determine if it's really going to do what you expect it to or not. If you're not getting the functionality you need from it, then it's clearly not suitable for you. There's no right or wrong to this. I just have a different view to you because it does precisely what I need it to and that makes it the perfect unit for me. That doesn't mean I know better than you or otherwise. It just means that my needs are different to yours, that's all.

[Geissler]

Brilliant response Artstar, thanks. I'm well aware that the PCM series is technically and sonically lightyears ahead of MD, but being an ex-R50 user you surely understand my affection towards that unit. It was a triumph of usability, simplicity and ergonomics. Interacting with it had become an extremely personal experience for me, probably due in part to the fact that it's what first drove me to start composing. I was sad to see it go because the object itself was an inspiration to me.

The additional benefits of the digital realm come at the expense of simplicity, but despite that I'm convinced this is the way ahead.
I'm quite sure I'll get used to it and find ways to work around my gripes. As silly as it may sound, I only hope that over time I can develop as strong a bond with the M10 as I had with my R50.