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Author Topic: Great sounding Mono Rig?  (Read 3963 times)

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beenjammin

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Great sounding Mono Rig?
« on: January 25, 2011, 05:03:47 PM »
Hi Folks,

I'm posting to solicit advice about a simple, but excellent sounding, mono field recording rig. I'm a musician and want to step up my recording gear. As you can tell, I'm pretty green in this area. I want something that is easy to use and sounds great.

I want to record both acoustic instruments and be able to take mono-nature/ambient/effects recordings to mix into my music.
Ideally, I'd want a few different mics for this -- I know -- and eventually, I'll expand.

Given that I want a natural/neutral, and uncolored/detailed sound, I've settled on an omni mic. I also really like that they are open, more resistant to handling noise and are responsive to up-close micing.

I've had the DPA 4060 and loved the clarity of it, but it sounded a touch harsh in the end for me, and I'd like to dial things back a bit.

Here are some options I'm currently looking at:

Mics: Schoeps MK 2 with the CMBI/CMC6 Body or DPA 4090
Recorders: Oade Sup MOD Marantz PMD 661 or Oade Sup MODE Marantz PMD 620

Apparently the 4090 is smoother than the 4060, so that's why I'm considering it. It's also much cheaper than the MK2. Perhaps this would give me the clarity I'm after but be less harsh as the 4060.

The 661 with the MK2 might be ideal, but it's really out of my budget right now. I could wait to save up, but, uh, I'd rather not...

So for now, this puts me at a choice between:
1) Oade Sup MOD 620 with the MK2 and CMBI body, or
2) Oade Sub MOD 661 with the 4090

I don't think I'll profit much for the 661's 96K option and will record in 24/48 most of the time.

Option 2 is significantly cheaper than 1 and I'm leaning towards it right now, but thought that I'd see what you guys think - maybe the MK 2 is better suited for my needs than the DPA and is worth the extra money?
My instincts tell me to budget mostly for the mic and build off of that as technology of the recorders advance and prices come down.

Any advice or insight you guys have is much appreciated.



Offline illconditioned

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Re: Great sounding Mono Rig?
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2011, 08:57:54 PM »
Really recommend stereo!

Why?  Well, it will give you the feeling of really "being there".  Get in the good sounding spot.  Any stereo technique that includes both split and directional mics will sound great.

While mono is great, just imagine how it sould sound to be in the same room with some of the old jazz or blues artists.  I would much rather hear the spatial texture of real instruments than a studio recording or a mono recording done live, as many of these were.  If you're recording your own music, all the better.  You can get way up close and make it sound fantastic.

Another idea: if you can get great sound when you play (ie., monitors), wear a set of mics on your head (clipped to glasses or on a hat).  Then you can really re-live the experience, exactly as *you* heard it.

  Richard
« Last Edit: January 25, 2011, 09:04:07 PM by illconditioned »
Please DO NOT mail me with tech questions.  I will try to answer in the forums when I get a chance.  Thanks.

Sample recordings at: http://www.soundmann.com.

Offline illconditioned

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Re: Great sounding Mono Rig?
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2011, 08:59:08 PM »
More.  Yes, I agree DPA sound "harsh" to me as well.  The only DPA I like are their omnidirectional line, the ones with metal diaphraghms.  These are expensive, as in $1500-2000 apiece!

If you want small, like the DPA 4060 or 4090, go for Countryman B3 instead.  These sound *fantastic*.  Complete realism and warm/smooth sound.  You can't beat this mic (except with the DPA metal diaphragm above).

If you want small condensors, the best deal around is Beyerdynamic MC930, you can get a stereo matched pair with clips, windscreens, case for approx $800-1000 at fullcompass.com.  These mics sound really nice, as good as any other cardioid mic you will find.  Note that just because a mic is directional (cardioid) doesn't mean it sounds bad.  High quality directional mics will make great recordings, and also allow you to reject noise, such as audience/crowd, if you wish.

If you want to hear some samples, in a range of settings, visit my website: http://Soundmann.com.

  Richard
« Last Edit: January 25, 2011, 09:09:07 PM by illconditioned »
Please DO NOT mail me with tech questions.  I will try to answer in the forums when I get a chance.  Thanks.

Sample recordings at: http://www.soundmann.com.

beenjammin

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Re: Great sounding Mono Rig?
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2011, 03:47:15 PM »
Thanks very much for the reply! I should have been clearer: I'm not recording live music, but looking to capture instrument tracks and effects to combine and compose into songs. Something like: a few different field recordings combined with instrument tracks, panning done on a computer to create an "artificial" soundscape.

I agree that I'll eventually want to run stereo, but for the time being and given my current needs, I'm thinking of putting more money into a great mic. I'll get the other one later, as my budget and recording needs change.

Offline illconditioned

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Re: Great sounding Mono Rig?
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2011, 05:33:27 PM »
^^ You *may* want to get a stereo rig to start with anyway.  It makes sense to buy mics as a matched pair.  You can use them for (stereo) field recordings.  You can also use a pair of mics to record (complex) acoustic instruments such as cello, piano, drum kit, acoustic guitar, etc.

As far as mixing/processing goes, I would much prefer starting with stereo recordings, and just overlaying one on top of the other.  Well, I'm not a fan of doing a lot of processing.  I would much rather see albums recorded "live off the floor".  Or at least very "lightly" produced.  If you want to do more technical work, I also suggest some other forums, such as Gearslutz.com or homerecording.com.  Of course you're welcome here, but I suspect more people doing production work on some of these other sites.  If you do make any recordings, particularly field recordings, feel free to post here...

Thanks,
  Richard
« Last Edit: January 27, 2011, 05:38:21 PM by illconditioned »
Please DO NOT mail me with tech questions.  I will try to answer in the forums when I get a chance.  Thanks.

Sample recordings at: http://www.soundmann.com.

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Re: Great sounding Mono Rig?
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2011, 07:00:41 PM »
I've had the DPA 4060 and loved the clarity of it, but it sounded a touch harsh in the end for me, and I'd like to dial things back a bit.
..
Apparently the 4090 is smoother than the 4060, so that's why I'm considering it. It's also much cheaper than the MK2. Perhaps this would give me the clarity I'm after but be less harsh as the 4060.

4060 and 4090 use the same capsule, but the special 4090 capsule protection grid produces a flat, measurement mic-like response through the treble range.  Unfortunately that grid is not available for the 4060.

The 4060 series has two interchangable grids, both of which produce a rising treble response.  The longer, high boost grid is designed to compensate for chest worn vocal pickup and produces a peaking +10dB response centered around 10kHz, some people use that for music recording but I find it completely unusable.  The short grid produces a more mild +3db shelf type response that approximates a diffuse-field eq.  Some users record using 4060 series mics without any grid attached to achieve a flatter treble response.  There is no question that the high frequency emphasis is less without the grids, but I have never seen a response graph of the naked capsule in the 4060 housing without a grid so I don't know how flat the response it that way. DPA does not recommend it as the mics are not designed to be used without the grids.

With few exceptions I almost always find that I can improve my recordings with some eq, regardless of the mics or other equipment used, and I'm not averse to doing so.   When I use the 4060s I use them with the short grids.  Sound is subjective, we all have pesonal biasis and I understand that people sometimes hear a harshness in the raw 4060 response, but I find it manageble with some careful eq.  For me, doing so is an acceptable trade for the clarity I have not found in any other miniature omni regarless of what i do with the eq.  Many times I'm actually eq'ing an additional broad shelf boost for general tone, along with a narrower (higher Q) notch to quell that perceived the ringing or resonance that can sound harsh.  Every recording is different so there is no blanket formula that works every time.

I highly respect Righard's opinion and expertice and I've picked up 3 pair of Countryman B3 to do my own subjective comparisons.  They are nice mics and though I've not used them enough to make any conclusive decisions yet, at this point I still prefer the 4060 clarity.  Perhaps it all comes down to personal preference, or perhaps it's dependant on the required eq work I feel is necessary and am willing to do regardless of the mic used.  I look forward to experimenting with them further and may well change my mind.  The B3 is certainly more attractively priced than any other mentioned here.

All the mics mentioned are good quality and can produce excellent recordings.  If you can, try them yourself and decide what works best for you, your recording style, your production chain, your ears and your ultimate finished recordings. 

BTW, I second the notion of recording in stereo over mono at least for the ambient portions of your sonic constructions.  Panned mono instuments can work well in combination with that, though it might help to use a touch of some appropriate stereo reverb to help place the mono bits in the same 'imaginary acoustic space'.  That sense of space, of 'being there', is a big part of what it's all about for me.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Church-Audio

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Re: Great sounding Mono Rig?
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2011, 07:24:45 PM »
Hi Folks,

I'm posting to solicit advice about a simple, but excellent sounding, mono field recording rig. I'm a musician and want to step up my recording gear. As you can tell, I'm pretty green in this area. I want something that is easy to use and sounds great.

I want to record both acoustic instruments and be able to take mono-nature/ambient/effects recordings to mix into my music.
Ideally, I'd want a few different mics for this -- I know -- and eventually, I'll expand.

Given that I want a natural/neutral, and uncolored/detailed sound, I've settled on an omni mic. I also really like that they are open, more resistant to handling noise and are responsive to up-close micing.

I've had the DPA 4060 and loved the clarity of it, but it sounded a touch harsh in the end for me, and I'd like to dial things back a bit.

Here are some options I'm currently looking at:

Mics: Schoeps MK 2 with the CMBI/CMC6 Body or DPA 4090
Recorders: Oade Sup MOD Marantz PMD 661 or Oade Sup MODE Marantz PMD 620

Apparently the 4090 is smoother than the 4060, so that's why I'm considering it. It's also much cheaper than the MK2. Perhaps this would give me the clarity I'm after but be less harsh as the 4060.

The 661 with the MK2 might be ideal, but it's really out of my budget right now. I could wait to save up, but, uh, I'd rather not...

So for now, this puts me at a choice between:
1) Oade Sup MOD 620 with the MK2 and CMBI body, or
2) Oade Sub MOD 661 with the 4090

I don't think I'll profit much for the 661's 96K option and will record in 24/48 most of the time.

Option 2 is significantly cheaper than 1 and I'm leaning towards it right now, but thought that I'd see what you guys think - maybe the MK 2 is better suited for my needs than the DPA and is worth the extra money?
My instincts tell me to budget mostly for the mic and build off of that as technology of the recorders advance and prices come down.

Any advice or insight you guys have is much appreciated.

DPA 4006 When I recorded my acoustic with that mic my jaw hit the floor.. That is quite simply the best mic in the world for recording anything and capturing it like it is.. If you can find one I highly recommend it. I have been mixing live bands for over 20 years I have had my hands on the best mics you can get.. The DPA 4007 still blows everything out of the water for capturing sound like you hear it. If you have to go with a single mic this is the one to get. I have a Meyer sound 4006 New the DPA 4006 Can be had for $1699.  I also liked the 4090 I had for a while it was a nice flat mic not quite as deep as the 4006 but quite good for the money.
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beenjammin

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Re: Great sounding Mono Rig?
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2011, 08:04:18 PM »
Hmm. The 4006 would be ideal but I've only seen it for way more than that. Where can you get it for 1699? Used?

Offline illconditioned

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Re: Great sounding Mono Rig?
« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2011, 09:14:20 PM »
I've had the DPA 4060 and loved the clarity of it, but it sounded a touch harsh in the end for me, and I'd like to dial things back a bit.
..
Apparently the 4090 is smoother than the 4060, so that's why I'm considering it. It's also much cheaper than the MK2. Perhaps this would give me the clarity I'm after but be less harsh as the 4060.

4060 and 4090 use the same capsule, but the special 4090 capsule protection grid produces a flat, measurement mic-like response through the treble range.  Unfortunately that grid is not available for the 4060.

The 4060 series has two interchangable grids, both of which produce a rising treble response.  The longer, high boost grid is designed to compensate for chest worn vocal pickup and produces a peaking +10dB response centered around 10kHz, some people use that for music recording but I find it completely unusable.  The short grid produces a more mild +3db shelf type response that approximates a diffuse-field eq.  Some users record using 4060 series mics without any grid attached to achieve a flatter treble response.  There is no question that the high frequency emphasis is less without the grids, but I have never seen a response graph of the naked capsule in the 4060 housing without a grid so I don't know how flat the response it that way. DPA does not recommend it as the mics are not designed to be used without the grids.

With few exceptions I almost always find that I can improve my recordings with some eq, regardless of the mics or other equipment used, and I'm not averse to doing so.   When I use the 4060s I use them with the short grids.  Sound is subjective, we all have pesonal biasis and I understand that people sometimes hear a harshness in the raw 4060 response, but I find it manageble with some careful eq.  For me, doing so is an acceptable trade for the clarity I have not found in any other miniature omni regarless of what i do with the eq.  Many times I'm actually eq'ing an additional broad shelf boost for general tone, along with a narrower (higher Q) notch to quell that perceived the ringing or resonance that can sound harsh.  Every recording is different so there is no blanket formula that works every time.

I highly respect Righard's opinion and expertice and I've picked up 3 pair of Countryman B3 to do my own subjective comparisons.  They are nice mics and though I've not used them enough to make any conclusive decisions yet, at this point I still prefer the 4060 clarity.  Perhaps it all comes down to personal preference, or perhaps it's dependant on the required eq work I feel is necessary and am willing to do regardless of the mic used.  I look forward to experimenting with them further and may well change my mind.  The B3 is certainly more attractively priced than any other mentioned here.

All the mics mentioned are good quality and can produce excellent recordings.  If you can, try them yourself and decide what works best for you, your recording style, your production chain, your ears and your ultimate finished recordings. 

BTW, I second the notion of recording in stereo over mono at least for the ambient portions of your sonic constructions.  Panned mono instuments can work well in combination with that, though it might help to use a touch of some appropriate stereo reverb to help place the mono bits in the same 'imaginary acoustic space'.  That sense of space, of 'being there', is a big part of what it's all about for me.
I'd be curious to hear your opinions B3 vs 4060 over a long period, and for different sounds.

I'd also like to compare music samples, both home stereo and live shows.  I want to listen and see how comfortable listening is over a relatively long period, more than just a minute (or less).

  Richard

PS: My own experience is that 4060 has perfect realism, and sounds fantastic for ambient sounds, but somehow I find it hard to listen to music.  There is an "edginess" there, comapared to a "smoother" sound on the B3.

Please DO NOT mail me with tech questions.  I will try to answer in the forums when I get a chance.  Thanks.

Sample recordings at: http://www.soundmann.com.

Offline illconditioned

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Re: Great sounding Mono Rig?
« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2011, 09:16:56 PM »
Hi Folks,

I'm posting to solicit advice about a simple, but excellent sounding, mono field recording rig. I'm a musician and want to step up my recording gear. As you can tell, I'm pretty green in this area. I want something that is easy to use and sounds great.

I want to record both acoustic instruments and be able to take mono-nature/ambient/effects recordings to mix into my music.
Ideally, I'd want a few different mics for this -- I know -- and eventually, I'll expand.

Given that I want a natural/neutral, and uncolored/detailed sound, I've settled on an omni mic. I also really like that they are open, more resistant to handling noise and are responsive to up-close micing.

I've had the DPA 4060 and loved the clarity of it, but it sounded a touch harsh in the end for me, and I'd like to dial things back a bit.

Here are some options I'm currently looking at:

Mics: Schoeps MK 2 with the CMBI/CMC6 Body or DPA 4090
Recorders: Oade Sup MOD Marantz PMD 661 or Oade Sup MODE Marantz PMD 620

Apparently the 4090 is smoother than the 4060, so that's why I'm considering it. It's also much cheaper than the MK2. Perhaps this would give me the clarity I'm after but be less harsh as the 4060.

The 661 with the MK2 might be ideal, but it's really out of my budget right now. I could wait to save up, but, uh, I'd rather not...

So for now, this puts me at a choice between:
1) Oade Sup MOD 620 with the MK2 and CMBI body, or
2) Oade Sub MOD 661 with the 4090

I don't think I'll profit much for the 661's 96K option and will record in 24/48 most of the time.

Option 2 is significantly cheaper than 1 and I'm leaning towards it right now, but thought that I'd see what you guys think - maybe the MK 2 is better suited for my needs than the DPA and is worth the extra money?
My instincts tell me to budget mostly for the mic and build off of that as technology of the recorders advance and prices come down.

Any advice or insight you guys have is much appreciated.

DPA 4006 When I recorded my acoustic with that mic my jaw hit the floor.. That is quite simply the best mic in the world for recording anything and capturing it like it is.. If you can find one I highly recommend it. I have been mixing live bands for over 20 years I have had my hands on the best mics you can get.. The DPA 4007 still blows everything out of the water for capturing sound like you hear it. If you have to go with a single mic this is the one to get. I have a Meyer sound 4006 New the DPA 4006 Can be had for $1699.  I also liked the 4090 I had for a while it was a nice flat mic not quite as deep as the 4006 but quite good for the money.
Yes, these are the best mics (measurement mic, nickel or stainless? diaphragm).  Should sound great!

By the way, how do the DPA compare to your THE measurement mic?  That has a 1/2" measurement capsule made by ACO-pacific, and is approx $600 each.

  Richard
Please DO NOT mail me with tech questions.  I will try to answer in the forums when I get a chance.  Thanks.

Sample recordings at: http://www.soundmann.com.

Offline Church-Audio

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Re: Great sounding Mono Rig?
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2011, 11:20:15 AM »
Hi Folks,

I'm posting to solicit advice about a simple, but excellent sounding, mono field recording rig. I'm a musician and want to step up my recording gear. As you can tell, I'm pretty green in this area. I want something that is easy to use and sounds great.

I want to record both acoustic instruments and be able to take mono-nature/ambient/effects recordings to mix into my music.
Ideally, I'd want a few different mics for this -- I know -- and eventually, I'll expand.

Given that I want a natural/neutral, and uncolored/detailed sound, I've settled on an omni mic. I also really like that they are open, more resistant to handling noise and are responsive to up-close micing.

I've had the DPA 4060 and loved the clarity of it, but it sounded a touch harsh in the end for me, and I'd like to dial things back a bit.

Here are some options I'm currently looking at:

Mics: Schoeps MK 2 with the CMBI/CMC6 Body or DPA 4090
Recorders: Oade Sup MOD Marantz PMD 661 or Oade Sup MODE Marantz PMD 620

Apparently the 4090 is smoother than the 4060, so that's why I'm considering it. It's also much cheaper than the MK2. Perhaps this would give me the clarity I'm after but be less harsh as the 4060.

The 661 with the MK2 might be ideal, but it's really out of my budget right now. I could wait to save up, but, uh, I'd rather not...

So for now, this puts me at a choice between:
1) Oade Sup MOD 620 with the MK2 and CMBI body, or
2) Oade Sub MOD 661 with the 4090

I don't think I'll profit much for the 661's 96K option and will record in 24/48 most of the time.

Option 2 is significantly cheaper than 1 and I'm leaning towards it right now, but thought that I'd see what you guys think - maybe the MK 2 is better suited for my needs than the DPA and is worth the extra money?
My instincts tell me to budget mostly for the mic and build off of that as technology of the recorders advance and prices come down.

Any advice or insight you guys have is much appreciated.

DPA 4006 When I recorded my acoustic with that mic my jaw hit the floor.. That is quite simply the best mic in the world for recording anything and capturing it like it is.. If you can find one I highly recommend it. I have been mixing live bands for over 20 years I have had my hands on the best mics you can get.. The DPA 4007 still blows everything out of the water for capturing sound like you hear it. If you have to go with a single mic this is the one to get. I have a Meyer sound 4006 New the DPA 4006 Can be had for $1699.  I also liked the 4090 I had for a while it was a nice flat mic not quite as deep as the 4006 but quite good for the money.
Yes, these are the best mics (measurement mic, nickel or stainless? diaphragm).  Should sound great!

By the way, how do the DPA compare to your THE measurement mic?  That has a 1/2" measurement capsule made by ACO-pacific, and is approx $600 each.

  Richard
Its funny the "the" mic is not as musical sounding as the DPA the DPA is much more msusical sounding. both are very acurate the ACO capsule is very flat like the DPA..but not out to 40k like the DPA is.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2011, 11:23:24 AM by Church-Audio »
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Re: Great sounding Mono Rig?
« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2011, 12:04:27 PM »
I'd be curious to hear your opinions B3 vs 4060 over a long period, and for different sounds.

I'd also like to compare music samples, both home stereo and live shows.  I want to listen and see how comfortable listening is over a relatively long period, more than just a minute (or less).

  Richard

PS: My own experience is that 4060 has perfect realism, and sounds fantastic for ambient sounds, but somehow I find it hard to listen to music.  There is an "edginess" there, comapared to a "smoother" sound on the B3.

Certainly, I hesitate to even comment at this point before spending enough time with them.

Seems there is some psycoacoustic something or other going on which makes it hard to objectively nail down.  I recognize this in my own listening. Long term listening, non-critical 'simply in the same room' type listening and just general familiarity over time seems to help me to balance a bias connected with concentrated critical-listening and immediate short-term impressions.  I will note that simply as a personal preference I tend to gravitate to 'open' less cluttered sounding music where each instrument is distinct and I can hear the space around the notes and the music interacting with the performance space more than dense 'wall of sound' bar-rock type stuff these days, so in that light, much of what I tend to record may lean more toward the 'ambient' type material which you find the 4060s well suited for.

In my limited experience with the B3s, I can definitely hear an attractive smoothness, both in timbre and also in an even soundstage- like they are very well matched (and I'm pleased that the 2 pairs I've wired up and tested so far do seem pretty close matched.  I paired the ones with consecutive serial numbers but have not matched them otherwise as yet)

BTW, Pretty sure the 4006 uses a stainless as its diaphram material.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline RichT

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Re: Great sounding Mono Rig?
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2011, 08:59:42 AM »
I studied acoustics as my undergrad and had a go at music recording with Bruel and Kjaer Measurement mics, it just didn't sound 'right'.  DPA are actually the 'music' subsiduary (they may be a separate company now) to Bruel and Kjaer, who are pretty much the industry standard for acoustic measurement equipment. There are still 4006's knocking around (quite a lot with the BBC) labelled Bruel and Kjaer.

Omni's are generally going to have a flatter response, with no proximity effect and lower sensitivity to wind and handling noise. If you can get reasonably close to sound sources, or there is no/low background noise, this is great- however if you need to isolate sounds you'll need to use a directional mic. This can be an issue, especially outdoors if recording effects. Indoors a hypercardioid's probably your best bet and outside, a shotgun (or even parabolic) mic.

If you can afford it I'd be more inclined to go with the Schoeps as it's modular and you can get more capsules later.  DPA are now also making their 'reference standard' mics modular (including the 4006).

Also, if you're going from mono to stereo (or surround) you can get a figure 8 mic and run M/S

 

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