Topic: Best Pres on Portable Recorders?

[TAlderson]

I know this is like asking who the best player is in the minor leagues, but does anyone know/have an opinion on the portable digital recorder/field recorder with the best mic preamps? I've never found internal mic quality or number of xlr vs 1/8" jacks or 48 vs 96 khz or any of those usual hangups to be a problem, since I usually use just one external mic and it's mostly for personal use (some student radio use as well- but it's student radio), but the preamps on my DR-07 (bought about a year and a half ago) can get a bit noisy/buzzy (I record a lot of interviews and classical music, among many other things, both of which can get quite soft). I'm not really looking to buy per se, as I am pretty satisfied with what I've got, but if I could get a much better sound for a couple hundred bucks, I might bite. I know I could use an external preamp, but that would sacrifice the portability that I love about the whole field recorder thing in the first place.

Anyway, any thoughts?

-Tyler

EDIT: Just so you know, I'm usually either using a set of Sound Professional SP-TFB-02 in-ear binaurals, or an Audio Technica ATM10a w/internal battery for power.

[hi and lo]

The Sony M10 has a better internal pre than just about any other hand-held recorder out there.

[John Willett]

The best mic. pres. IMHO are on the Nagra VI - the new EMP has the same mic. pres. as the Nagra VI.

[rastasean]

The best mic. pres. IMHO are on the Nagra VI - the new EMP has the same mic. pres. as the Nagra VI.

And it's portable. 

[John Willett]

The best mic. pres. IMHO are on the Nagra VI - the new EMP has the same mic. pres. as the Nagra VI.

And it's portable. 

Yes - of course it is, it's a battery powered location recorder. 

The EMP is much smaller and has a built-in recorder (only 16-bit, though).   

Well - the OP didn't say a budget, he only said "Re: Best Pres on Portable Recorders?" 

[TAlderson]

While that does sound like a nice preamp/recorder, it does fall outside of my stated budget of a couple hundred dollars... The problems of being a student.

I've heard good things here and elsewhere about the M10, I think I'll listen to some samples to check it out...

-Tyler

[WiFiJeff]

The EMP is much smaller and has a built-in recorder (only 16-bit, though).   

I'm finding it hard to get info on the EMP, some places say it gets 4 hours from 4 AAs, some 8 hours.  Size, weight?

Jeff

[John Willett]

The EMP is much smaller and has a built-in recorder (only 16-bit, though).   

I'm finding it hard to get info on the EMP, some places say it gets 4 hours from 4 AAs, some 8 hours.  Size, weight?

Jeff

The following is copy/pasted from a scanned pdf of the info. sheet I picked up in Frankfurt in May.

I hope it answers your questions (I really hope it does, it has taken me over half an hour to post this).



NAGRA EMP portable dual microphone pre-amplifier

The Nagra-EMP is a custom built external stereo microphone preamplifier. Using principally the same electronic schematic as the renowned preamplifiers of the Nagra Vl, it runs of 4 AA batteries. Equipped with a small built-in audio recorder, this extremely high quality preamplifier can be used in numerous different situations.



The Nagra-EMP is a stereo / 2 channel portable preamplifier designed for classical music and film / TV location recording. An 16-bit solid-state 2-track digital audio recorder is built-in (2 GB memory). lt is designed and built as an "on-location" recorder with the traditional Nagra ruggedness. All controls as audio limilers, filters, Phantom power, record are controlled lrom the front.

The front panel, chassis and features were all designed using the experience of previous NAGRA recorders which render the Nagra-EMP to very user-friendly and comfortable to operate even in harsh environmental conditions. lt is powered by a 4 AA cells. The autonomy without recording is approximalely 4 hours (No Phantom, no record). lt is equipped with one Hirose connector allowing external power.

The Nagra EMP has two analogue inputs on XLR connectors, equipped with extremely high quality microphone pre-amplifiers. They include, as one expects, +48 V phantom powering and in-house wound NAGRA transformers offering an improvement of +6 dB in the noise floor when set to the 2 mV/Pa (for dynamic microphones) position.

Equipped with a low cut filter as well as a Vortex filter and limiters.

Technical specifications

lnputs
Analogue inputs.................................. 2 x symmetrical XLR Microphone (Dynamic, +48V Phantom)
Microphone input sensitivity................. 2.8, 10 and 30 mV/Pa selectable
Limiters............................................. Selectable on microphone inputs, individual or in pairs.  Active at -9.5dBFS, max +40dB for -2 dBFS
THD at 1 kHz..................................... <0.15 % Mic, <0.01% line
Frequency response............................ 10Hz - 48k + 0.5 dB
lnput noise with condenser mic............. 0.88 uV (-119 dBm)
lnput noise with dynamic mic............... 4 dB (measured ASA "A" loaded 200Ω)
Signal-to-noise ratio........................... >114 dB
lnput level adjustment range................ 50 dB Mic
lnput filters........................................ LFA (with vortex filtering), Low cut
External power................................... Hirose 4 pin connector (9 to 13 V, 3.5W)

Outputs
Analogue line output........................... 2 x XLR 4.4Y max., selectable 0 dBm, +6 dBm or +15 dBm
Headphones....................................... Stereo 6.3mm (¼") Jack 50Ω

Recorder
File type............................................ PCM BWF or MPEG 1 L ll, 16 bit, 32 to 48 kHz, Stereo / Mono
Memory size...................................... 2 GB (corresponds to 2h 53min in PCM BWF 48kHz stereo)

Other
USB Host.......................................... USB 2.0 connector type "mini USB"

General
Dimensions....................................... 190 x 50 x 175 mm (W x H x D) / 7.5 x 2 x 6.9"(W x H x D)
Weight............................................. 1 Kg (2.2lbs), including batteries
Power supply.................................... 4 Dry cells / NimH cells "AA" type or external 9 - 13V
External power consumption............... Approximately 2.8 W (2 Phantom mic. & record) 
Battery consumption.......................... Approximately 2.6 W (2 Phantom mic. & record) / Approximately 1.5 W at 6 V (no Phantom, no record)
Battery autonomy.............................. Approximately 2 hours (2 Phantom mic. & record) / Approximately 4 hours (no Phantom, no record)
Relative humidity............................... From 10% to 99% (non condensing)

[Gutbucket]

I bet that sounds great.  I wonder how it handles transport controls for the recorder since there appears to be no recorder interface on the front panel.

What is a Vortex filter? sounds psychedelic.

[John Willett]

Nagra have just put details of the EMP up on their website HERE. 

You can also download the user manual if you want to know more.  You go to the Pro Section - Support and select "Nagra EMP".

[John Willett]

I bet that sounds great.  I wonder how it handles transport controls for the recorder since there appears to be no recorder interface on the front panel.

You can read the manual - it's downloadable from the Nagra website.

What is a Vortex filter? sounds psychedelic.

Quote from the manual:-

"The Vortex filter specifically designed to give ultimate protection against wind / boom microphone noise. This filter is designed to allow the Nagra EMP to be used in the most difficult conditions on location.

The input filter on the Nagra EMP is a hardware filter and is therefore not software programmable. The reason for this choice is simple. A software programmable filter is a digital filter in the heart of the digital part of the audio chain. Wind noise coming into the preamplifier will already have done its distortion and overloading directly in the preamplifier long before it gets to the digital filtering stage. The filters in the Nagra EMP roll off -3 dB at 150 Hz and then at 12 dB per octave. If an alternative curve is required, then provision is made on the input circuit board to add capacitors accordingly and the necessary values can be supplied if necessary.

The low cut filter roll off -3 dB at approximately 60 Hz."

[Gutbucket]

Interesting thanks.

Although their justification for implementing the input filter in the analog input stage as 'hardware' is well founded and I think we would all agree it's the best choice, they could of course still switch that via software if they chose to.  Though I don't see a reason why software switching of it would be needed , and sort of wonder why they make a hollow excuse for not doing so. 

[TNJazz]

In this day and age why would they produce a new device with a 16 bit A/D ?  That just makes no sense to me.

[George2]

GOOD NEWS Nagra says 24bit for the EMP on their website.

http://www.nagraaudio.com/pro/pages/products_nagra_EMP.php

[it-goes-to-eleven]

They wouldn't.  MPEG is 16 bit.

[John Willett]

GOOD NEWS Nagra says 24bit for the EMP on their website.

http://www.nagraaudio.com/pro/pages/products_nagra_EMP.php

Unfortunately this was a copy/paste error and is now being corrected.

It is 16-bit only, I'm afraid.   

[it-goes-to-eleven]

It is 16-bit only, I'm afraid.   

That makes no sense.  They say they use a 24 bit converter.. Why would they force dither it to 16?

[H₂O]

GOOD NEWS Nagra says 24bit for the EMP on their website.

http://www.nagraaudio.com/pro/pages/products_nagra_EMP.php

Unfortunately this was a copy/paste error and is now being corrected.

It is 16-bit only, I'm afraid.   

Will the USB interface support 24bit?  And the internal recorder support 16bit?

[John Willett]

It is 16-bit only, I'm afraid.   

That makes no sense.  They say they use a 24 bit converter.. Why would they force dither it to 16?

They don't say that - I said it was a copy/paste error when they compiled the page.

It has now been corrected - see HERE.

[John Willett]

GOOD NEWS Nagra says 24bit for the EMP on their website.

http://www.nagraaudio.com/pro/pages/products_nagra_EMP.php

Unfortunately this was a copy/paste error and is now being corrected.

It is 16-bit only, I'm afraid.   

Will the USB interface support 24bit?  And the internal recorder support 16bit?

The EMP is really a top quality analogue 2-channel pre-amp.  It has some internal software control and needed a USB socket to be able to update it.

So they just included a basic 16-bit recorder at the same time.  It was designed as a pre-amp. first and foremost.

I don't get mine until tomorrow, so I will learn more later.

[hi and lo]

So they just included a basic 16-bit recorder at the same time.  It was designed as a pre-amp. first and foremost.

Not to be skeptical, but seems more likely they just didn't want it cutting into the sales of their high-end recorders. I'm guessing the cost/labor/design differences between a 16 and 24 recording stage are negligible.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

So they just included a basic 16-bit recorder at the same time.

Yeah, but a minidisc?

[John Willett]

So they just included a basic 16-bit recorder at the same time.  It was designed as a pre-amp. first and foremost.

Not to be skeptical, but seems more likely they just didn't want it cutting into the sales of their high-end recorders. I'm guessing the cost/labor/design differences between a 16 and 24 recording stage are negligible.

More like to make it a proper 24/96 recorder would cost a lot more and make it more expensive than the LD and not get many sales.

They included an existing 16-bit circuit into a superb pre-amp without upping the projected price of the pre-amp.

I am betting that a 16-bit recording on the EMP will sound better than a 24-bit recording on an inexpensive pocket recorder.

Anyway - I gate my EMP today and I'll see how it sounds.

[George2]

Yep.. 16bit.. 24bit.. probably doesn't make a difference.....
Looks great. What is the price?

[Gutbucket]

The price is probably 48bit/fixed. 

[AB52]

Where does it say 24bit on the website???  I did not find it on the page you refer to.

GOOD NEWS Nagra says 24bit for the EMP on their website.

http://www.nagraaudio.com/pro/pages/products_nagra_EMP.php

[flipp]

Where does it say 24bit on the website???  I did not find it on the page you refer to.

GOOD NEWS Nagra says 24bit for the EMP on their website.

http://www.nagraaudio.com/pro/pages/products_nagra_EMP.php

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=148254.msg1897379#msg1897379

GOOD NEWS Nagra says 24bit for the EMP on their website.

http://www.nagraaudio.com/pro/pages/products_nagra_EMP.php

Unfortunately this was a copy/paste error and is now being corrected.

It is 16-bit only, I'm afraid.   

[stevetoney]

I know I could use an external preamp, but that would sacrifice the portability that I love about the whole field recorder thing in the first place.

Anyway, any thoughts?

Tyler, I haven't done any personal testing, but Doug Oade does upgrade mods to the pre's inside the PMD-620.  That should probably put it up there with anything you could get in a stock unit, but you'd probably want to confirm this with someone that owns a modded unit.

http://oade.com/digital_recorders/hard_disc_recorders/PMD-620MODS.html

[Todd R]

I am betting that a 16-bit recording on the EMP will sound better than a 24-bit recording on an inexpensive pocket recorder.

But will it sound better than a Grace Lunatec V3?

Given typical pricing on Nagras, I'm betting a Lunatec V3 (digital) > Sony D50 setup will cost less than an EMP and will record in 24 bits.

[hi and lo]

I am betting that a 16-bit recording on the EMP will sound better than a 24-bit recording on an inexpensive pocket recorder.

But will it sound better than a Grace Lunatec V3?

Given typical pricing on Nagras, I'm betting a Lunatec V3 (digital) > Sony D50 setup will cost less than an EMP and will record in 24 bits.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

I completely disagree that a 24/96 recorder would "cost a lost more." Sure... they'll charge more, but the materials and design costs to a company like Nagra are negligible.

[John Willett]

Where does it say 24bit on the website???  I did not find it on the page you refer to.

GOOD NEWS Nagra says 24bit for the EMP on their website.

http://www.nagraaudio.com/pro/pages/products_nagra_EMP.php

You won't find the page, it's been deleted.

It was a mistake that Nagra corrected when they realised the mistake.

The EMP page is HERE - this is the corrected version.

[John Willett]

I am betting that a 16-bit recording on the EMP will sound better than a 24-bit recording on an inexpensive pocket recorder.

But will it sound better than a Grace Lunatec V3?

Given typical pricing on Nagras, I'm betting a Lunatec V3 (digital) > Sony D50 setup will cost less than an EMP and will record in 24 bits.

It depends where you are - Grace also make superb gear (I have some myself).  But what makes Nagra expensive in the USA makes Grace expensive in the UK and Europe.

I think the Grace is more expensive than the Nagra EMP in the UK - so it will probably work out about equal on balance.

[John Willett]

I am betting that a 16-bit recording on the EMP will sound better than a 24-bit recording on an inexpensive pocket recorder.

But will it sound better than a Grace Lunatec V3?

Given typical pricing on Nagras, I'm betting a Lunatec V3 (digital) > Sony D50 setup will cost less than an EMP and will record in 24 bits.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

I completely disagree that a 24/96 recorder would "cost a lost more." Sure... they'll charge more, but the materials and design costs to a company like Nagra are negligible.

The EMP was designed as a top quality mic. pre. to match the Nagra VI.  It has no recording controls other than an on/off record switch.

To make it a 24/96 recorder (which I personally would have liked) would have meant transport controls and a lot more work.

My understanding is that some of the internals are software controlled and they took an existing board to do this.  As that board already had 16-bit recording on it, they allowed it's use rather than leaving it on the board unused - that is my understanding of the situation.

Yes, I would have loved it to have been 24/96 and I conveyed this to Nagra at the time - but the EMP is a great mic. pre. equal to and cheaper than the Grace Lunatec (in Europe at least).

Funny - it would have cause less angst if Nagra had left the EMP as a mic. pre. only and not activated the recording feature - the price would have been the same.