Topic: Portable recorder for loud music

[skern49]

Hi all,

Preface: I'm not that technologically savvy!

I'm in the market for a portable recorder (preferably no more than $200, though I can be persuaded), and I'd only be using the internal mics. I would use it primarily to record 1) myself, on solo guitar, which can be loud/distorted/piercing and 2) record rehearsals/jams of jazz and jazz-ish music. This can be loud as well, with a drum set, and I might be playing distorted here as well. I'm not playing heavy metal or anything, but I imagine snare drums and/or loud electric guitar could pose a problem. Thus, I'm mainly concerned with the maximum SPL.

I'm leaning toward the Zoom H2n, though I've been looking at similarly priced Tascams (DR-100, DR-40, DR-07MKII, DR-08, DR-05, GT-R1) and the Olympus LS-10 and Olympus- LS-11 (both discontinued?) and the Sony M10. Some of these (DR-100, LS-11, M10) are a little too expensive, but like I said, I can be persuaded, if they happen to be the best fit for me.

Anyway, as mentioned, I'm concerned with the SPL. I've read that a max SPL of 120 dB (which the H2n has) is plenty high, but I've also read that it is impossible to have absolutely no gain on the H2n, which might be a problem. Besides this, when jamming or rehearsing, you can never predict what arrangement the musicians will end up in, so I'd want the recorder to be flexible in this regard (one of the reasons I'm leaning towards H2n).

Audio quality is really the next priority. Honestly, the H2n probably has more features than I'd use (though I can see myself getting into the audio interface side of things), so that's not really why I'm going for it.

Thoughts?

Thanks,
Sasha

[TimeBandit]

Tascam Dr-05 gets up to 125 dB Spl.

The olympus ls100 up to 140dB Spl.

Oly ls100 out of your budget range ... and don'T know if Tascam and Oly used the same definitions for measuring the SPL.

maybe safer a to get some discontinued recorder used for less then 100 dollars, maybe the old DR 07 and invest the rest into Batterybox / Preamp and external mics.
even with externals you have more options to place them to fit good with the room acoustics.

[earmonger]

There are many complaints about the build quality of the Zoom line. If you have to replace the whole recorder it's not a bargain.

Meanwhile, the brick-like PCM-M10 is down to $229 at B&H.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/638090-REG/Sony_PCM_M10_BLACK_PCM_M10_Portable_Audio_Recorder.html

I have recorded loud concerts (Kings of Leon at Bonnaroo main stage)  with its internal mics. They sound good. It should be OK for your rehearsals unless you are completely caving in your eardrums. 120dB is an airplane landing nearby. Obviously you'd place the recorder at whatever distance you can get from the drums.

But as suggested above, take up a collection from your bandmates and get externals and a battery box. It doesn't have to be fancy:

Mics:
http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-BMC-2
(with standard option, which is low-sensitivity)

I would suggest getting the extended warranty if they are leaving the rehearsal room, since they are on thin wires for stealth, susceptible to wear before the warranty expires. You can even skip the extended warranty if they are going to be babied.

Battery Box:
http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-SPSB-8
(no bass roll-off or other "upgrades")

I did just try the website and it's behaving a little wonky in my browser, which is unusual. If you have the same problem call them--they're actual human beings.

Mic-->battery box-->Line-in. Gain on the input volume knob at about 4. It will handle your band and give you better recordings than internals.

Total for mics/battbox is about $120 and will bring great joy.

[YYzepp]

Roland R-05.

[skern49]

Thank you for your replies.

The thing is, I'm really looking to just use the recorder and its internal mics, rather than dealing with other equipment, even if it means compromising sound quality. I appreciate the idea, but in the situations I'm in, quickness and ease is of paramount importance.

Though I'm not too familiar with this, it seems that the Tascam DR-05, Sony M10 and Roland R-05, which (correct me if I'm wrong) all have omnidirectional mics, might not be as adaptable to different and unexpected musician arrangements? This is one of the reasons the H2n was attractive, because of the various mic settings. I guess it comes down to this: I'm not in need of perfect, professional sounding recordings. However, it is very important to be able to capture each instrument as equally as possible regardless, and perhaps despite of, the arrangement.

When you say build quality, do you mean it can't withstand abuse? That might be a problem, but I'm a pretty careful (read: paranoid) person.

[F.O.Bean]

What about Tascam DR2D

[DigiGal]

You might be interested in Tascam's new product - iM2 iPhone & iPad Stereo Condenser Microphone if you've already got a compatible iOS device, it might suit your needs to get you started in recording.

http://tascam.com/product/im2/

   

[jbou]

What about Tascam DR2D

I would check this out to. They can be had for about $120 now and I believe it has card mics, not omni

[earmonger]

I just want to point out that cardioid mics are directional. If your band is set up in a circle in the rehearsal room, the cards are going to pick up much less of the sound behind them.

Omnis pick up in all directions. They work more like your ears.

The Zoom has a lot of internal mics but its basic X/Y stereo recording is cardioid (directional).  I guess its two-channel surround sound is something like omni.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/indepth/audio/hands-reviews/new-zoom-h2n-rewrites-book-portable-recording

It does have other possibilities but I doubt you would be using them. M/S and four-channel are aimed at film and broadcast location recording, getting files that can be tweaked in post-processing. I trust you do not want to be mixing down four channels after you record.

Anyway, cards and omnis both have their uses. If you are going to get a recorder and stick with internal mics, make sure that the pickup pattern is best for your setup.

And yes, do look at that Tascam Dr2D. Its internal mics are cardioids, FYI.  Its big selling point as a rehearsal recorder is that it makes two recordings at once--one 20dB quieter, so if you do overload at your usual levels, there's another undistorted copy as well.

The PCM-M10 and other recorders generally handle overloads with limiters, which (if you enable them) will kick in when things get too loud.

[aaronji]

Omnis pick up in all directions. They work more like your ears.

Ears aren't really omnis, though.  They can be highly directional, especially at some frequencies...

[skern49]

I just want to point out that cardioid mics are directional. If your band is set up in a circle in the rehearsal room, the cards are going to pick up much less of the sound behind them.

Omnis pick up in all directions. They work more like your ears.

The Zoom has a lot of internal mics but its basic X/Y stereo recording is cardioid (directional).  I guess its two-channel surround sound is something like omni.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/indepth/audio/hands-reviews/new-zoom-h2n-rewrites-book-portable-recording

It does have other possibilities but I doubt you would be using them. M/S and four-channel are aimed at film and broadcast location recording, getting files that can be tweaked in post-processing. I trust you do not want to be mixing down four channels after you record.

Anyway, cards and omnis both have their uses. If you are going to get a recorder and stick with internal mics, make sure that the pickup pattern is best for your setup.

And yes, do look at that Tascam Dr2D. Its internal mics are cardioids, FYI.  Its big selling point as a rehearsal recorder is that it makes two recordings at once--one 20dB quieter, so if you do overload at your usual levels, there's another undistorted copy as well.

The PCM-M10 and other recorders generally handle overloads with limiters, which (if you enable them) will kick in when things get too loud.

I suppose the reason I was leaning towards cards, and the H2n in particular, was because of flexibility. You're right, in the case where the musicians are scattered in some sort of circle around the room, omnis would work best. However, some sort of semicircle is much more common, or anything in between. Also, I plan on recording myself, solo. It seems to me that, taking into account all possible playing situations, then on average cards would be better suited. But maybe I have a faulty impression of how flexible the H2n is? Like I've said, I'm not too familiar with recording, but is it wrong to think that the M/S option would come in handy in my case? Or is it really only for those purposes you mentioned?

The M10 definitely looks good, but it might be just barely out of my price range. As for the DR2D, I did some minimal research and found that battery life seems to be an issue. And researching the H2n a little more, people echoed your previous point about its poor build quality. But if I had to choose between poor battery life and poor build quality, I'd choose poor build quality, if only because I completely overestimate my caretaking abilities. But hey, what can you do?

After some more thought, I really can't justify spending more than $200. And anyway, if I did, I'd go for the M10, so this basically rules out the Olympus recorders and the DR100. So that leaves the H2n and all the other Tascams (and maybe the Roland R-05? still need to look into that one...). I guess my question would be, for the cheaper Tascams (05, 08, and to a lesser extent 07 and DR2D), is there a notable difference in sound quality in the internal mics when compared to DR40, H2n, R-05, etc.? I've listened to a few AB tests (such as http://www.wingfieldaudio.com/portable-recorder-sound-samples.html) and it seemed, for example, that the M10 is more dynamic than the Zooms and Tascams, but AB tests don't really represent real life situations, do they? I know I'm just blabbering by now, but I guess what I'm trying to ask is whether or not I should be concerned with such small differences that can only be appreciated in an AB test, when I'm certainly not trying to produce professional quality recordings. I merely want quasi-professional quality recordings to, say, upload to my website, use as demos, and (even more merely) to listen to after rehearsals for critiquing purposes. The quality of the mics is important to me only with regard to their ability to capture all instruments as equally as possible, no matter the setup, and their tolerance of high volumes. Hence my hesitancy to buy a recorder with omnis, and hence my attraction to the H2n, whose official website wowed (tricked?) me with claims of the recorder's high level of adaptability.

Thoughts? 

[F.O.Bean]

I feel your pain bro! If I were you tho, I would DEF choose the M10! Thats why I have 2 of them and a DR2D. The battery runtimes arent THAT BAD w/ the DR2D. I get around 4.5>5hrs w/ 2300mah Energizer rechargeables. Thats PLENTY of time for most shows

[jbou]

Since he plans on using the internal mics, does the M-10 provide additional benefit over some of the cheaper recorders he mentioned? I know the M-10 is great for what most people here do, but if only using internal mics, I feel like the M-10 might be overkill.

[F.O.Bean]

No, I would say its build quality and battery runtimes are the M10s major differences vs. whatever else is out there

[jbou]

No, I would say its build quality and battery runtimes are the M10s major differences vs. whatever else is out there

But isn't the key how the M-10s internals stack up against the internals of the other recorders? I think there is a thread somewhere about the Tascam DR-05's internals being decent. How would you say the DR-2d's internals are? I know the M-10 is awesome, but for using the internals is it really worth paying 2 or 3 times as much as some of the other recorders? I'm just wondering because I think the OP can get what he needs without going over his budget.

[Cheesecadet]

I think the M10 internals sound nice.  I would go M10 and not look back. Solid recorder.

[earmonger]

I merely want quasi-professional quality recordings to, say, upload to my website, use as demos, and (even more merely) to listen to after rehearsals for critiquing purposes. The quality of the mics is important to me only with regard to their ability to capture all instruments as equally as possible, no matter the setup, and their tolerance of high volumes. Hence my hesitancy to buy a recorder with omnis, and hence my attraction to the H2n, whose official website wowed (tricked?) me with claims of the recorder's high level of adaptability.

Thoughts? 

We are living in a golden age of hi-fi. Probably any recorder you grabbed would give you a recording that you would be happy with as a quick-and-dirty rehearsal recording, assuming

(1) that you place it well, where the mix it is recording sounds good
 and
(2) that it doesn't overload.

I know you have researched unto insanity but do look at that B&H roundup that digifish music just posted:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/indepth/audio/hands-reviews/portable-digital-recorder-roundup

It does note that the Tascam DR-05--all of $83--is made not to overload in a rehearsal-room situation.

I don't understand why you think cards would be better. Cardioid means heart-shaped. Imagine a valentine with its point at the mic and the wider area unfolding in front. Suppose your instruments are outside that heart shape (which varies depending on the mic--there are hypercardioids that are extra narrow, but none of the internals are hypercardioids.) Omnis will behave much more like your ears....really, aaronji, we don't disagree.

Decide what features are important. If it's battery life, just get the PCM-M10. If it's multiple mic setup possibilities, get the H2N (but be gentle with it). If it's high volume, maybe you should look at the Tascams.






B

[F.O.Bean]

I personally would go the Tascam DR2D route[which does 4 channel, runs on 2xAA, and is only $125.00] or the Sony PCM-M10[which does 2 channel, runs FOREVER on 2xAA, and has an EXCELLENT Preamp/ADC Stage, at least IMHO}

While the M0 costs a bit more[$230.00], I would DEFINITELY rate the M10 Numero Uno[#1]!

[skern49]

I don't understand why you think cards would be better. Cardioid means heart-shaped. Imagine a valentine with its point at the mic and the wider area unfolding in front. Suppose your instruments are outside that heart shape (which varies depending on the mic--there are hypercardioids that are extra narrow, but none of the internals are hypercardioids.) Omnis will behave much more like your ears....really, aaronji, we don't disagree.

Decide what features are important. If it's battery life, just get the PCM-M10. If it's multiple mic setup possibilities, get the H2N (but be gentle with it). If it's high volume, maybe you should look at the Tascams.

Thank you for your response. Now that I think about it, it's not that I want cards for the sake of cards, but many of the recorders with cards can further adjust the mics' angles or positioning. My main concern is that I'll be using the same recorder to record rehearsals with several musicians as well as to record myself, solo guitar. So to sum up everything up until this point, I have the following questions/thoughts. And believe me, I'm not trying to have you convince me that the H2n is the best choice...I'd much rather be convinced that the DR-05 is the best choice because I'm broke!

1) If I used omnidirectional mics (DR-05) to record solo guitar, would this result in a poor quality recording in relation to using, say, a 90 degree X/Y configuration?

2) When recording solo guitar, would it make any sense to use the M/S feature on H2n, with absolutely no Side mic (thus resulting in a 30 degree angle from the Mid mic only, according to Zoom's website)? Rephrased: Is it correct to assume that, when recording a solo instrument, the narrower the angle the better? Or does it give the recording some pleasing sense of "breadth" when I use a wider angle (say, again, 90 degrees)?

3) If I'm recording a band with M/S, would the ability to adjust the stereo width after the fact give me more control over making sure certain instruments were captured equally? Or am I completely misunderstanding the use of M/S?

4) You mentioned the H2n's ability to simulate omnidirectional mics with its 2- or 4-channel surround sound recording. In the case of musicians spread all around the room, would this be a good choice or is it just a poor imitation of actual omnis?

Thank you.

[earmonger]

Whoa, wait a minute. I've never used the H2N, so maybe someone who has can chime in. But your questions suggest you're ready to do a bunch of post-processing that wasn't part of the original question--and really, for what you want to do, shouldn't be necessary.

There should be no problem recording your solo guitar with omnis. For more focus, put them up close. For more room reverberation, move them back.  Do a little experimenting--you know the guitarist personally, right?--and you'll find a good spot.

Mic placement is an art and science that recording engineers spend a lifetime studying, but omnis do indeed give you more of a sense of breadth.

[aaronji]

<snip>
Omnis will behave much more like your ears....really, aaronji, we don't disagree.

OK, except that I really don't think omnis behave much like your ears!   Sure, the way they work is very similar (like a pressure microphone), but the way they behave is very different.  The polar pattern of an ear is extremely complicated and highly frequency dependent.  None of the microphone patterns represent an ear well, but, if I had to pick, I'd say that at lower frequencies (maybe less than 1 kHz or so) they aren't too far from a wide card and that they get much more directional after that (by ~ 2 kHz, the ear's pick-up looks kind of like that same wide card at ~ 15 kHz).  Plus, omnis typically have extended, flat low frequency response while ears have a pretty steep low cut...

[skern49]

Whoa, wait a minute. I've never used the H2N, so maybe someone who has can chime in. But your questions suggest you're ready to do a bunch of post-processing that wasn't part of the original question--and really, for what you want to do, shouldn't be necessary.

Hmmm...I didn't mean to give off that impression. The only thing I was thinking of doing is using the H2n's ability to adjust the Side mic after recording, which seemed like a pretty useful feature. I really have no experience with this sort of stuff, because....

you know the guitarist personally, right?

I am the guitarist. I barely have the slightest idea of what post-processing even entails, and all I'd have to work with is Audacity. But it seemed like adjusting the Side mic after the fact would be easy because it's one of the features of the product itself.

Is anyone around that owns the H2n that could answer my above questions? Perhaps I should start another thread....