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Author Topic: KORG PROMO: TALK TO KORG  (Read 18958 times)

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Offline dream

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Re: KORG PROMO: TALK TO KORG
« Reply #15 on: February 24, 2012, 12:06:59 AM »
Sure it was meant as a provocative joke. I just ask how much 'real' audio information is there to convert up or down?
Where starts this 'down conversion'? I cannot imagine any audio that could need 56 bit and 384 kHz. So the Korg rep must be joking too.
The question that popped into my head was: what PCM specification is equivalent in Rich's view to be equal in quality to DSD?
You just can name some impressing numbers and tell the audience you're down converting. If DSD can be 'down' converted to 56 bit 384 kHz
in a quality sense and not just as data conversions and manipulations, then it must be better than even this PCM equivalent. This would be then
a bold statement form a rep.

Offline aegert

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Re: KORG PROMO: TALK TO KORG
« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2012, 08:55:47 AM »
Sure it was meant as a provocative joke. I just ask how much 'real' audio information is there to convert up or down?
Where starts this 'down conversion'? I cannot imagine any audio that could need 56 bit and 384 kHz. So the Korg rep must be joking too.
The question that popped into my head was: what PCM specification is equivalent in Rich's view to be equal in quality to DSD?
You just can name some impressing numbers and tell the audience you're down converting. If DSD can be 'down' converted to 56 bit 384 kHz
in a quality sense and not just as data conversions and manipulations, then it must be better than even this PCM equivalent. This would be then
a bold statement form a rep.

the 1 bit stream is the first step in what most a/d converters do the next step is dissemination where the bits get 'dealt out ' from the single stream to words with a certain bit depth. 16/20/24 bit etc... this process involves Technology. As time moves on this process will get better. Better for 16 24 what ever... Higher Bit depths will start to sound more 'Analog'.  This is the Archival point to DSD. So all of your masters have the longest possible shelf life.

It's flexibility long term in a better sounding format... I would ask KORG to add more editing capabilities to AudioGate: maybe plug ins for Mid Side, Compression, Limiting Which would enable a more polished dsd end product... Then adding a more Itunes like media interface for playback.. At that point I could use the DSD's anywhere in my home listening system. I could use the MR2 as an ipod of sorts too.. :-)

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Offline aaronji

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Re: KORG PROMO: TALK TO KORG
« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2012, 09:14:47 AM »
Sure it was meant as a provocative joke. I just ask how much 'real' audio information is there to convert up or down?
Where starts this 'down conversion'? I cannot imagine any audio that could need 56 bit and 384 kHz. So the Korg rep must be joking too.
The question that popped into my head was: what PCM specification is equivalent in Rich's view to be equal in quality to DSD?
You just can name some impressing numbers and tell the audience you're down converting. If DSD can be 'down' converted to 56 bit 384 kHz
in a quality sense and not just as data conversions and manipulations, then it must be better than even this PCM equivalent. This would be then
a bold statement form a rep.

the 1 bit stream is the first step in what most a/d converters do the next step is dissemination where the bits get 'dealt out ' from the single stream to words with a certain bit depth. 16/20/24 bit etc... this process involves Technology. As time moves on this process will get better. Better for 16 24 what ever... Higher Bit depths will start to sound more 'Analog'.  This is the Archival point to DSD. So all of your masters have the longest possible shelf life.

How will higher bit depths "sound more analog"?  PCM at, say, 24/96, already provides more bits than our gear can provide and goes way into ultrasonic territory.  It will take a whole lot of evolution before our ears/hearing (not to mention brain) can detect flaws in that audio...

And, really, why isn't this thread in the Retail Space?

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: KORG PROMO: TALK TO KORG
« Reply #18 on: February 24, 2012, 10:24:56 AM »
The dissemination in audio gate is phenomenal. the one bit files have mor information and are more like analog recordings without the draw backs..

..but for a bit bucket, size and recoding technology there is not much better than the KORG...

..this process involves Technology. As time moves on this process will get better. Better for 16 24 what ever... Higher Bit depths will start to sound more 'Analog'.  This is the Archival point to DSD. So all of your masters have the longest possible shelf life.

It's flexibility long term in a better sounding format... I would ask KORG to add more editing capabilities to AudioGate: maybe plug ins for Mid Side, Compression, Limiting Which would enable a more polished dsd end product...

Many unsubstantiated claims being made here as well as some outright errors.  I don't mean to quench your personal enthusiasm, but most of this is evangelical marketing hyperbole being presented as fact, some of it simply incorrect.

I’d also feel more comfortable with this thread moved to the Retail Space.
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Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: KORG PROMO: TALK TO KORG
« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2012, 11:22:04 AM »
And, really, why isn't this thread in the Retail Space?

I suggested placement of this thread here, and the MR2 deal thread in the Retail forum.  The MR2 deal thread is strictly a retail offering, and as such belongs purely in the Retail forum.  This thread represents more of a knowledge sharing / question asking & answering / informational thread about the unit, and therefore I feel it belongs in this forum.
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Re: KORG PROMO: TALK TO KORG
« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2012, 11:27:46 AM »
To my ears, DSD sounds slightly different than hi-rez PCM.  I'll leave it to those more knowledgeable about the "Technology" ;) but I think comparing them may be more like asking how far do you have to swim to equal to running a marathon.

When it comes to archiving, yes I want the highest reasonable quality, but I don't necessarily want it in a (seemingly) closed format with limited penetration.

That doesn't mean I wouldn't use DSD to record masters if it produced the best quality, considering costs and convenience, as a 2nd gen PCM.

Offline aegert

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Re: KORG PROMO: TALK TO KORG
« Reply #21 on: February 24, 2012, 02:13:59 PM »
Deleted to let the thread get back to where it needs to be. Your opportunity to talk to KORG My Opinions deleted..


:D


« Last Edit: February 24, 2012, 03:10:15 PM by aegert »
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Offline hi and lo

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Re: KORG PROMO: TALK TO KORG
« Reply #22 on: February 24, 2012, 02:39:07 PM »
First off, cheers to Aegert and Korg for opening this discussion! Already seeing some great things come from it if MR1 owners can now get some replacement batteries.

However, I think I have to strongly, no, absolutely, agree with Gutbucket. The statement that most clearly rings with me as being an outright error is that a DSD recorder somehow translates to better long-term archival. That might be true in a perfect world and I'm not here to argue the merits of recording and archival formats, but I can definitively say that there is not a single DSD recorder on the market (accessible to tapers) with the same quality of analog mic and line inputs when compared to the best PCM recorders available. Simply put, unless every single piece of analog equipment upstream of the A/D converter is of the absolute highest quality, there is absolutely no benefit in recording to DSD when a linear PCM recorder with superior mic/line inputs and A/D exists. Any quality difference between DSD and 24/48 PCM is trumped exponentially by the preceding analog stages.

There have been a few comps, one fairly recently, pitting DSD recorders against the most well known and regarded A/Ds around. IIRC, most everyone preferred the PCM variants.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: KORG PROMO: TALK TO KORG
« Reply #23 on: February 24, 2012, 03:52:47 PM »
I mean no personal animosity and I'm also happy to have any manufacturer posting here to discuss our needs and concerns- that's great!  It's just that this thread seems to play loose muddling factual information with opinions, and muddies the line between product marketing and enthusiastic independant end users.  I'm just raising caution flags for others who might be less discerning and questioning of the claims stated here.

I don't want to get into technical arguments on this, especially about opinion claims that can't be otherwise confirmed by objective testing or industry standard use, but suffice it to say that there are numerous experts who would argue against your claims of superiority of DSD for a number of reasons, inclulding the claim that it is superior for archival use.  The issues are not as simple as you make it out to be.  A big one is doing any editing to the files.  As far as I am aware, all editing outside of simple summing and fades (and even that on most sytems that can handle DSD processing) must be done in PCM format.  If DSD must be converted to PCM to do anything to the content, including simply playing it in many pieces of hardware, where's the advantage? If counting how many more angels fit on the head of the pin with future high res file conversion, there is essentially no difference in storing very high resolution PCM or very high resolution DSD.  There are various technical arguments to be made for the superiority of either over the other, but those have mimimal practical implications.  The practical issues are much more important and seem to me a difficult hurdle for DSD, starting with the issues at the very begining of the signal chain chain hi and lo mentioned, but also at almost every other step: storage, editing, playback, compatibility, etc.

A couple of the factual errors- I was not aware this recorder had a digital input? If it doesn't calling it a bit bucket is a misnomer.  DSD files do not have the ability to store more information than PCM files, both are ulimately limited by the data-rates of the files.  Higher bit depths do not sound 'more analog', if they did that would be an argument against one bit delta-sigma DSD encoding.  In PCM encoding, higher bit depth provides a format in which a larger range of possible signal levels can be stored.  It does not increase the resolution of information within the range covered by a lower bit depth. I won't begin to get into the claims about sounding closer to analog or audio quality, especially if the basics of digital audio are misunderstood.  The mathmatics behind sampling theorem are 100 years old, proven and beyond argument.  There are engineering tradeoffs made in it's application, but the mathmatics are beyond dispute.

These are good recorders that work well for many users here and help them to make great recordings.  That's the most important thing and I don't mean to detract from that, but they'll do that just as well without the hyperbole. 

Thanks for opening the dialog and bringing Korg onboard!
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Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline aaronji

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Re: KORG PROMO: TALK TO KORG
« Reply #24 on: February 24, 2012, 04:57:17 PM »
In addition to the points raised by hi and lo and Gutbucket, I think it is also useful to consider the limitations of our hearing.  24-bit audio has a dynamic range of ~ 144 dB, while hearing has a dynamic range of ~ 140 dB (and that's under ideal circumstances).  Sampling at 96 kHz can reproduce frequencies up to 48 kHz, while hearing maxes out at around 20 kHz.  Even if you account for uncanny hearing or bandwidth required for filtering or the like, 24/96 will amply cover the range of what we can actually hear...I have yet to hear a compelling argument for why DSD would improve things in the audible range.

By the way, thanks, Adam, for setting this up!  Don't interpret natural (and, in my opinion, justified) criticism as "putting a target on your back"...It's a generally skeptical bunch here...

And, really, why isn't this thread in the Retail Space?

I suggested placement of this thread here, and the MR2 deal thread in the Retail forum.  The MR2 deal thread is strictly a retail offering, and as such belongs purely in the Retail forum.  This thread represents more of a knowledge sharing / question asking & answering / informational thread about the unit, and therefore I feel it belongs in this forum.

Fair enough; thanks for the explanation.

Offline RichF

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Re: KORG PROMO: TALK TO KORG
« Reply #25 on: February 24, 2012, 05:06:18 PM »
I was not aware this recorder had a digital input? If it doesn't calling it a bit bucket is a misnomer.

Just to clarify, the MR2 doesn't have a digital input. The rackmountable MR-2000S does include S/PDIF I/O, which is used primarily for multi-bit PCM formats, and for syncing multiple units together. With the MR2, you're either recording from the built-in mics or the line in.

Thanks,
-Rich
Richard Formidoni
Technology Product Manager
Korg USA, Inc.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: KORG PROMO: TALK TO KORG
« Reply #26 on: February 24, 2012, 06:05:39 PM »
Thanks for the clarification Rich... and for helping us out here.  Welcome to the forum.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline H₂O

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Re: KORG PROMO: TALK TO KORG
« Reply #27 on: February 24, 2012, 06:07:30 PM »
I think to say DSD is equivalent to 2 track analog master tape is an inaccurate statement as we are not referencing the type of DSD being involved.

There are many ways to represent audio in the digital realm with the primary 2 formats is multibit 2 dimensional (parallel) format as with PCM and a single bit or 1 dimensional (serial) format as with PDM/PWM (or DSD).

To compare the two you also need to understand modern AD topologies.  Most modern AD designs use two or more stages to generate a digital signal from the with the first stage being either a 1-bit serial modulation stage (PDM/PWM) or a multibit (2-4 bits for example) stage.

the V3 and MR-1 for example use Burr-Brown AD that has a 1 bit initial stage.  The 7xx series has a multibit initial stage

With DSD the next stages are not needed so the initial digital stream is preserved.  Thus less processing.

It is important to note that 1 bit PDM/PWM does require noise shaping up to a certain frequency (4-8x higher than the MR-1000) - but keep in mind most AD's that result in a 24 bit PCM will also have this noise shaping in the pipeline.

Go look up Delta Sigma Modulation on wikipedia to learn more.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta-sigma_modulation
« Last Edit: February 24, 2012, 06:09:07 PM by H₂O »
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Offline ArchivalAudio

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Re: KORG PROMO: TALK TO KORG
« Reply #28 on: February 25, 2012, 05:58:03 PM »
Hey
Please feel free to use this forum to ask any and all questions about teh Korg offer or Korg Products for recording in this thread.

The MR-2 Promotional 30% off thread is located here:

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=153691.0

The marketing product managers will be checking in here to communicate and answer your questions.

The MR2 is a great product that will give you great pulls and enable you to go from 1bit to 24 or 16 with ease. It will also facilitate 1 bit dsd discs playable in some players and systems which enables production of your recordings so you can here them as never before!

I hope this becomes a great partnership for Korg and TS!

aegert (adam)





Adam,

thank you so much for passing this special deal on to the TS community!
This certainly makes it very tempting... I know there are already a bunch of users out there I hope that some will chime in with real world experience.

--Ian
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Offline boyacrobat

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Re: KORG PROMO: TALK TO KORG
« Reply #29 on: February 25, 2012, 08:43:18 PM »
on a side note

i did some dsd rec last night an mr1
discovered left ch lost on headpone out only
also has weird static noise on left hp ch
line out to head phones works ok but not as loud
thats normal

question is where best to buy replacment unit mr2
the battery and now left ch prob sounds like a good reason
to upgrade to mr2

looking for new one shipped to melb oz
best price would be ?????

but first to confirm this
is it true on 2 aa bat you can get 6 hrs rec time
that is awsome if true

thats the only question i have the batt

i love the dsd realm and want to remain there without power dramas
maby mr2 can deliver me a smile on this area

its well overdue


g

 

 

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