Topic: Busman BSC2 opinion needed

[ninjadave]

hello all, thinking about moving to the busman actives. couple questions.
1. are they as sensitive as the Beyer ck930's - i think so based upon the spec on the website but not sure. which means, very hot signal? this has been a problem for me taping loud gigs with Beyer ck930s. that is all i really tape, loud stuff.
2. which one - sub or hyper for the third set (assuming card and omni are automatics). what uses for each? saw there might be issues with low end on the subs?
3. i assume these will marry up nicely with Marantz PMD661 Oade CM running bodies straight in XLR with no pre? assuming item 1 is not issue (hot signal).
thanks for your comments.

[slightlys]

I personally would take  cards, hypers, subcards.  I personally have found very few instances where omnis are useful. Unless you tape outdoors ALOT and even then IMHO Subcards are my goto. Hypers are great to have as well.

[Todd R]

I can't comment on the Busmans, and you might prefer having multiple capsules options...

But the mc930's have a -15db attenuator setting, and I wouldn't be afraid to use it.  I have the hyper version -- mc950 -- and several times when I didn't want that hot of an output I engaged the -15db attenuators.  I didn't notice any change in the quality of the signal I got from the mc950s with the attenuator engage, just had a signal that was 15db lower (equivalent of 6.5mV/PA vs the standard 40mV/Pa).

Better from a noise perspective not to engage the attenuators unless you need to, but if you need to, do it.  Plus the noise difference is not going to be an issue in a noisy concert situation with PA-driven music.

[ninjadave]

thanks for the replys guys.

i've been stack taping very loud shows, from pretty close up. I have been using the -15db pad on the mics and, as well as, when Doug modded my PMD661 (concert mod), he changed the -18db stock setting to -30db since I told him the mics i was buying and he knew as I did they were pretty hot, Jason Sobel gave me some advice, etc. so, even running both of those, I'm usually ok if I keep the level on the PMD661 just a hair under 5 or at 5 at loud gigs (rush, styx, etc). it seems like the sound is better, much thicker and clearer, the closer I can get the levels to peaking at -6db or even closer to 0, vs way less than that and adding level in post.(ie being conservative with levels)...so i've been pushing them....and doing that and trying to stealth and monitor levels is not easy and nearly impossible as I have to move my head to see the levels and that CHANGES the levels as i've just moved the mics (which are on the top of my body), looking down at the recorder makes the monitoring of them a waste of time really. also, i know anything lower than 4 or 4.5 on that recorder and it might overload anyway.....so i'd really just like a little more level room plus, with the pad and the lower gain setting, I don't know if i am making the sound worse?

I just don't know if the Busman's are less sensitive and whether having the other cap options, would be a benefit. I always seem to run the cards regardless and I like those, sometimes I'm too close to the middle and front and I think omni's might be a better option, since most of the sound is out beside me, but my goal is to always get in line with PA and close (not super close but 15-25 rows at large arena shows, club shows much closer). club shows the sound is not as loud. i'm always going to be stealth taping regardless, so my mic positions are not the best, ie. DIN, etc. they are as best as i can get them mounted........, so i'd probably only use the CARDS anyway...the hyper and sub cards are better for being farther away right and FOB type tapes....? no?

anyway, thanks for the input, was hoping someone with the busmans can comment on the sensitivity compared to these Beyers. I love the sound of them, he bass is almost TOO thick though but they really sound nice overall.

does anyone know if using the bass rolloff on the mic , might help with overall sound and distortion , seeing as these mics are SOO bassy and hot???

thanks!!!!

[yug du nord]

Different.......  but Busman BSC1's are HOT.

[F.O.Bean]

IMHO, if you get ANY of the caps, get them modded. Once modded, I think the hyper is the best cap in the arsenal, for real!!

Id get cards/hypers/omnis if it were me. Or just spend a lil extra $$ and get all 4 caps, modded of course.

[capnhook]

 

[F.O.Bean]

Brandon, I left you a phone number.  Please call me about the mic I bought from you, man.

Got it, sorry for the 2 day delay! I cant find the goddamn box that it got shipped to me in

[bryonsos]

I personally would take  cards, hypers, subcards.  I personally have found very few instances where omnis are useful. Unless you tape outdoors ALOT and even then IMHO Subcards are my goto. Hypers are great to have as well.

Sinner! The omnis are the shit!!

[F.O.Bean]

So did the OP ever buy BSC2s

[ninjadave]

i have not done anything yet. i still don't have enough information. please advise on teh following , i emailed busman, no answer.

1. do the busman mics have a PAD?? -15db on mic or body? if so, does it degrade sound quality?
2. sound wise, are they "bright" like scheops or "dark" like beyers? the bass on teh beyers is really too much and maybe its the mid/high boost that they "don't" have. either way, i like a brighter mic.
3. i know they are hot, they are not as hot as the beyers, but if they don't have a pad or if they do and it degrades quality, i'm going to have to adjust my PMD661 settings so i can run them at louder gigs.

thanks for any specific info on the above.

i may have a pair of beyers ck930s for sale soon......... 

[newplanet7]

Never have I heard anyone say schoeps are bright.

[ninjadave]

compared to the beyers, are schoeps brighter or darker or the same then? my point is they are not as dark as the beyers, that is a fact. i'm just trying to make a comparison not label any mics. thanks for your input.

[acidjack]

compared to the beyers, are schoeps brighter or darker or the same then? my point is they are not as dark as the beyers, that is a fact. i'm just trying to make a comparison not label any mics. thanks for your input.

I feel like "dark" and "bright" are misnomers in many cases, but what one can say is the Schoeps do not have a hyped high end at all; their response is flat and accurate, more like DPAs (but not that flat) but more "musical".  Haven't ever really comped them to the Beyers, but the Beyer 930s don't have a hyped high end, either.  The 950s IMHO do.

[newplanet7]

I would put the schoeps and Beyers in the same frame without hesitation. I might even say
that the beyers are less so.

[ninjadave]

i believe i have heard some "raw" unprocessed/no EQ schoeps recordings and they are no where near as bassy or dark as the beyers. at least the ck930s. its been some time but flat is a good description for them but my raw beyer ck930s are extremely thick on the low end, maybe its to do with the music being taped, not sure. i guess i made a bad comparison, which is not suprising as i really don't know a whole lot about the mics, but my point is, i want to go to a mic that has more a flatter response or a slight boost to the mids/highs, the beyers are more flat and almost a drop in the mids/highs than i like. just takes more work in post to get the recording to not thud at high volume. i was hoping to maybe switch to the busmans, giving me more options too but i need to stealth them and if they are too hot, then i'm going to have issues with my recorder. also, if they sound similar to the beyers, then no point in moving there. that is all i'm trying to find out. i continue to appreciate any input on the specific questions. thanks.

[newplanet7]

 Most schoeps tapes I listen to don't get eq'd. So i cannot further comment.
From your comments your feelings are they capture too much bass. I don't see them as darker than schoeps at all.

I have not heard any Beyer tapes that sound over bassy.

[acidjack]

i believe i have heard some "raw" unprocessed/no EQ schoeps recordings and they are no where near as bassy or dark as the beyers. at least the ck930s. its been some time but flat is a good description for them but my raw beyer ck930s are extremely thick on the low end, maybe its to do with the music being taped, not sure. i guess i made a bad comparison, which is not suprising as i really don't know a whole lot about the mics, but my point is, i want to go to a mic that has more a flatter response or a slight boost to the mids/highs, the beyers are more flat and almost a drop in the mids/highs than i like. just takes more work in post to get the recording to not thud at high volume. i was hoping to maybe switch to the busmans, giving me more options too but i need to stealth them and if they are too hot, then i'm going to have issues with my recorder. also, if they sound similar to the beyers, then no point in moving there. that is all i'm trying to find out. i continue to appreciate any input on the specific questions. thanks.

I think you want Schoeps MK5s or MK41s, then.  The MK5s and MK4Vs, among their cardiod line, have some HF bump built in on the high end, which gives the impression of being less "dark" than the MK4.  The 41s are hypers, obviously, but for stealthing, that could be your ticket.

Beyer to Busman is at best a lateral move, if not worse, IMHO.  Next actual upgrades that have real stealthable setups would be Milab and MBHO.  After that, Schoeps, DPA, Neumann.  For your tastes, which seem to run to the brighter side, MBHO might be your ticket.  And they are the cheapest option of the bunch.  Sebastian, a board member here, makes some outstanding tapes with his MBHO>tinybox rig.  The MBHOs are much brighter than the beyers, Schoeps and DPAs.  And the Milabs, which I think are extremely nice sounding as well and probably the best mic in their exact price range.

[Fried Chicken Boy]

I think you want Schoeps MK5s or MK41s, then. [/snip]

And the Milabs, which I think are extremely nice sounding as well and probably the best mic in their exact price range.

acidjack pointed out some very good options and these are the ones I focused on.  Both the Schoeps MK5 and the Milab VM-44 capsules have a mid-high frequency bump that is just about ideal for the kind of recording that most of us do.  And the MK41 is, to my ears, the most balanced super/hyper cardioid capsule I've personally ever heard (that said, I still haven't heard samples of the Milab super-card); almost nothing that it won't shine on.  All three also have a nice, rich low-end that's well controlled and not sloppy.  You couldn't go wrong with any of them, IMHO.

[acidjack]

There is also the Sennheiser MKH 8040/8050 series which is similar in price to the Milabs. The Milabs are smaller by a hair, but the Senn bodies are very small.  They do pick up tons of low end, but they also have a bump in the presence range that is good for recording. 

Unless you want to pull the trigger on Schoeps at a higher price point I'd strongly suggest looking into MBHOs and Milabs. You can get those new for what a beater set of Schoeps would cost.

[Brian Skalinder]

I am just going to disagree with you here. < snip > I don't see them as darker than schoeps at all.

I have not heard any Beyer tapes that sound over bassy.

It isn't that the Beyer's are inherently more bassy, but they do have -- to my ears, anyway -- a distinctly identifiable sonic signature that I would classify in the most general sense as "dark", and perhaps this is what the OP references.

Beyer to Busman is at best a lateral move, if not worse, IMHO.  Next actual upgrades that have real stealthable setups would be Milab and MBHO.  After that, Schoeps, DPA, Neumann.

I agree it's a lateral move, maybe even a downgrade, but if it achieves the desired change in sonic signature at a desirable price point, then in an absolute sense it's an "upgrade".

For the OP:  how about a sample or two from your recordings with which you're not satisfied, including associated details like full list of gear, mic placement & mounting, recording location and environment, etc.?  It's possible what you dislike about the Beyer recordings to date isn't unique to the Beyer's, but rather a function of some other factor(s).

[SmokinJoe]

Someone who knows more about line arrays than I do should chime in....   But I think if you are humping the stack I think that's going to emphasize the low end more than the high end.  You get the low frequency energy directly, where the hi end is dispersed.  If that's what's going on, then you probably won't find a mic change making a huge difference.

Rather than trying to boost the midrange in EQ, how about rolling off the bottom end?  Probably in post, or maybe even with a HPF which is probably built into the 661?  A simple HPF at 50 or 80hz will reduce the thud but not the warmth, and ultimately reducing the overall signal, so maybe you can use less than 45db of attenuation.

[newplanet7]

I am just going to disagree with you here. < snip > I don't see them as darker than schoeps at all.
I have not heard any Beyer tapes that sound over bassy.

It isn't that the Beyer's are inherently more bassy, but they do have -- to my ears, anyway -- a distinctly identifiable sonic signature that I would classify in the most general sense as "dark", and perhaps this is what the OP references.

I fully agree with that. I was stating that They were pretty much even with the schoeps flavor, and disagreeing with the Schoeps being
bright or pulling down less bass. My intent here was to just let him know that the Schoeps would be on par with the Beyers. Hence my earlier post.

I would put the schoeps and Beyers in the same frame without hesitation.

Hi dave! If you want to keep the great sound quality that you know the Beyers have, but shoot for something that isn't as bass driven,
I would check out the ck1x/mk46 AKG remote option in the yard sale section. (WHICK IS NOW SOLD!! Damn)
I have not heard enough Busman tapes to say what flavor they are. Any way the KG ACTIVE THING IS RIGHT AROUND THE CORNER.

[ninjadave]

thanks to all for the great tips and pointers and suggestions. i do find that the farther i am away from the stack, the less bassy it is and very much controllable in post, recording 24bit. however, i do also notice the bass extremely heavy when very close to the stack at clubs and smaller venues so i'm gonna pull that back, however, i might just roll with the bass rolloff on the mic body tomorrow night and see that doesn't fix the up close, in front of the stack taping thud i'm getting. if it takes all the bass out, hopefully i can put  some back but that probably should work considering the amount of bass that is getting on tape that close up. if not, will then move away from stacks. 

i checked pricing on the milabs at full compass, over $2k now for the pair unmatched. i was gonna buy that set in the yard sale a month ago and didn't (DUMB). oh well, gonna stick with what i got and if the milabs fall my way for a decent price, hopefully someone will be interested in my beyers.  i guess there is always ebay but seems its never a good enough price.

thanks again to all.

[acidjack]

thanks to all for the great tips and pointers and suggestions. i do find that the farther i am away from the stack, the less bassy it is and very much controllable in post, recording 24bit. however, i do also notice the bass extremely heavy when very close to the stack at clubs and smaller venues so i'm gonna pull that back, however, i might just roll with the bass rolloff on the mic body tomorrow night and see that doesn't fix the up close, in front of the stack taping thud i'm getting. if it takes all the bass out, hopefully i can put  some back but that probably should work considering the amount of bass that is getting on tape that close up. if not, will then move away from stacks. 

i checked pricing on the milabs at full compass, over $2k now for the pair unmatched. i was gonna buy that set in the yard sale a month ago and didn't (DUMB). oh well, gonna stick with what i got and if the milabs fall my way for a decent price, hopefully someone will be interested in my beyers.  i guess there is always ebay but seems its never a good enough price.

thanks again to all.

There is no reason to ever do that.  Rolling off bass in post is virtually always better.

Again, I'd look to MBHOs as well.  If you want a brighter-sounding mic, well, they're much brighter.  And I think new, with the Naiant tinybox as your pre, the entire thing is like $1300. 

[johnmuge]

http://archive.org/details/gba2009-12-17.flac16

I used the bass rolloff on the mics once if you'd like to check it out.

[jbou]

Again, I'd look to MBHOs as well.... And I think new, with the Naiant tinybox as your pre, the entire thing is like $1300.

I believe this is correct based on pricing I have seen. A set of caps run $600ish. Hypers a little more expensive. A pair of collettes is $400ish. Then get a cable maker to make a cable to go from collettes to tinybox, and then the tinybox

[ninjadave]

thanks for the link to the rolled off recording. not sure if i'm going to run it that way. will decide tonight.

do i have to run the MBHO's with a tinybox? can i run them straight into my marantz PMD661? would i need the bodies then? i've looked at those mics, I'm not exactly sure which ones will work for me stealthing....there seem to many versions or combos... thanks.

MBP603A is what i think i want to run direct into my 661? that won't pose problem for gain or anything, i don't mind the bodies or the length. the capsule part seems pretty long and rigid, i might have a problem mounting that in a hat though?

what about 648A, seems like smaller footprint but fixed attachment, but mic looks easier to head mount. draws less power too, is it similar in sound (ie. same capsules). THANKS for any info.

[acidjack]

thanks for the link to the rolled off recording. not sure if i'm going to run it that way. will decide tonight.

do i have to run the MBHO's with a tinybox? can i run them straight into my marantz PMD661? would i need the bodies then? i've looked at those mics, I'm not exactly sure which ones will work for me stealthing....there seem to many versions or combos... thanks.

MBP603A is what i think i want to run direct into my 661? that won't pose problem for gain or anything, i don't mind the bodies or the length. the capsule part seems pretty long and rigid, i might have a problem mounting that in a hat though?

what about 648A, seems like smaller footprint but fixed attachment, but mic looks easier to head mount. draws less power too, is it similar in sound (ie. same capsules). THANKS for any info.

I don't own MBHOs so you'd be better off talking to someone who does, but the answers on how to run them are:

You can go caps>tinybox without bodies
You can go caps>remote cables>bodies>661.  Costs more than just buying caps

The actual full bodied mic seems big for hat mounting, but you never know...  If you want something easier to stick in a hat that can go direct into your 661 there are also the Sennheiser MKH-8040/8040.  They do pick up a ton of low end, but they have a mid-HF emphasis as well.

[ninjadave]

thanks for the link to the rolled off recording. not sure if i'm going to run it that way. will decide tonight.

do i have to run the MBHO's with a tinybox? can i run them straight into my marantz PMD661? would i need the bodies then? i've looked at those mics, I'm not exactly sure which ones will work for me stealthing....there seem to many versions or combos... thanks.

MBP603A is what i think i want to run direct into my 661? that won't pose problem for gain or anything, i don't mind the bodies or the length. the capsule part seems pretty long and rigid, i might have a problem mounting that in a hat though?

what about 648A, seems like smaller footprint but fixed attachment, but mic looks easier to head mount. draws less power too, is it similar in sound (ie. same capsules). THANKS for any info.

I don't own MBHOs so you'd be better off talking to someone who does, but the answers on how to run them are:

You can go caps>tinybox without bodies
You can go caps>remote cables>bodies>661.  Costs more than just buying caps

The actual full bodied mic seems big for hat mounting, but you never know...  If you want something easier to stick in a hat that can go direct into your 661 there are also the Sennheiser MKH-8040/8040.  They do pick up a ton of low end, but they have a mid-HF emphasis as well.

if i run it thru tinybox, can you run into R9 via 1/8 in?  i hate to add a pre to the setup but the r9 is smaller and i have a tascam dr2 as well i could use. caps and collettes can be had where? tinybox is probably too far out to get one in time for fall tours i'm attending...

[acidjack]

thanks for the link to the rolled off recording. not sure if i'm going to run it that way. will decide tonight.

do i have to run the MBHO's with a tinybox? can i run them straight into my marantz PMD661? would i need the bodies then? i've looked at those mics, I'm not exactly sure which ones will work for me stealthing....there seem to many versions or combos... thanks.

MBP603A is what i think i want to run direct into my 661? that won't pose problem for gain or anything, i don't mind the bodies or the length. the capsule part seems pretty long and rigid, i might have a problem mounting that in a hat though?

what about 648A, seems like smaller footprint but fixed attachment, but mic looks easier to head mount. draws less power too, is it similar in sound (ie. same capsules). THANKS for any info.

I don't own MBHOs so you'd be better off talking to someone who does, but the answers on how to run them are:

You can go caps>tinybox without bodies
You can go caps>remote cables>bodies>661.  Costs more than just buying caps

The actual full bodied mic seems big for hat mounting, but you never know...  If you want something easier to stick in a hat that can go direct into your 661 there are also the Sennheiser MKH-8040/8040.  They do pick up a ton of low end, but they have a mid-HF emphasis as well.

if i run it thru tinybox, can you run into R9 via 1/8 in?  i hate to add a pre to the setup but the r9 is smaller and i have a tascam dr2 as well i could use. caps and collettes can be had where? tinybox is probably too far out to get one in time for fall tours i'm attending...

Yes, you can go MBHO>tinybox>R-09

As to your other question: http://bit.ly/P3ECkg