Topic: Busman BSC2 opinion needed

[ninjadave]

i believe i have heard some "raw" unprocessed/no EQ schoeps recordings and they are no where near as bassy or dark as the beyers. at least the ck930s. its been some time but flat is a good description for them but my raw beyer ck930s are extremely thick on the low end, maybe its to do with the music being taped, not sure. i guess i made a bad comparison, which is not suprising as i really don't know a whole lot about the mics, but my point is, i want to go to a mic that has more a flatter response or a slight boost to the mids/highs, the beyers are more flat and almost a drop in the mids/highs than i like. just takes more work in post to get the recording to not thud at high volume. i was hoping to maybe switch to the busmans, giving me more options too but i need to stealth them and if they are too hot, then i'm going to have issues with my recorder. also, if they sound similar to the beyers, then no point in moving there. that is all i'm trying to find out. i continue to appreciate any input on the specific questions. thanks.

[newplanet7]

 Most schoeps tapes I listen to don't get eq'd. So i cannot further comment.
From your comments your feelings are they capture too much bass. I don't see them as darker than schoeps at all.

I have not heard any Beyer tapes that sound over bassy.

[acidjack]

i believe i have heard some "raw" unprocessed/no EQ schoeps recordings and they are no where near as bassy or dark as the beyers. at least the ck930s. its been some time but flat is a good description for them but my raw beyer ck930s are extremely thick on the low end, maybe its to do with the music being taped, not sure. i guess i made a bad comparison, which is not suprising as i really don't know a whole lot about the mics, but my point is, i want to go to a mic that has more a flatter response or a slight boost to the mids/highs, the beyers are more flat and almost a drop in the mids/highs than i like. just takes more work in post to get the recording to not thud at high volume. i was hoping to maybe switch to the busmans, giving me more options too but i need to stealth them and if they are too hot, then i'm going to have issues with my recorder. also, if they sound similar to the beyers, then no point in moving there. that is all i'm trying to find out. i continue to appreciate any input on the specific questions. thanks.

I think you want Schoeps MK5s or MK41s, then.  The MK5s and MK4Vs, among their cardiod line, have some HF bump built in on the high end, which gives the impression of being less "dark" than the MK4.  The 41s are hypers, obviously, but for stealthing, that could be your ticket.

Beyer to Busman is at best a lateral move, if not worse, IMHO.  Next actual upgrades that have real stealthable setups would be Milab and MBHO.  After that, Schoeps, DPA, Neumann.  For your tastes, which seem to run to the brighter side, MBHO might be your ticket.  And they are the cheapest option of the bunch.  Sebastian, a board member here, makes some outstanding tapes with his MBHO>tinybox rig.  The MBHOs are much brighter than the beyers, Schoeps and DPAs.  And the Milabs, which I think are extremely nice sounding as well and probably the best mic in their exact price range.

[Fried Chicken Boy]

I think you want Schoeps MK5s or MK41s, then. [/snip]

And the Milabs, which I think are extremely nice sounding as well and probably the best mic in their exact price range.

acidjack pointed out some very good options and these are the ones I focused on.  Both the Schoeps MK5 and the Milab VM-44 capsules have a mid-high frequency bump that is just about ideal for the kind of recording that most of us do.  And the MK41 is, to my ears, the most balanced super/hyper cardioid capsule I've personally ever heard (that said, I still haven't heard samples of the Milab super-card); almost nothing that it won't shine on.  All three also have a nice, rich low-end that's well controlled and not sloppy.  You couldn't go wrong with any of them, IMHO.

[acidjack]

There is also the Sennheiser MKH 8040/8050 series which is similar in price to the Milabs. The Milabs are smaller by a hair, but the Senn bodies are very small.  They do pick up tons of low end, but they also have a bump in the presence range that is good for recording. 

Unless you want to pull the trigger on Schoeps at a higher price point I'd strongly suggest looking into MBHOs and Milabs. You can get those new for what a beater set of Schoeps would cost.

[Brian Skalinder]

I am just going to disagree with you here. < snip > I don't see them as darker than schoeps at all.

I have not heard any Beyer tapes that sound over bassy.

It isn't that the Beyer's are inherently more bassy, but they do have -- to my ears, anyway -- a distinctly identifiable sonic signature that I would classify in the most general sense as "dark", and perhaps this is what the OP references.

Beyer to Busman is at best a lateral move, if not worse, IMHO.  Next actual upgrades that have real stealthable setups would be Milab and MBHO.  After that, Schoeps, DPA, Neumann.

I agree it's a lateral move, maybe even a downgrade, but if it achieves the desired change in sonic signature at a desirable price point, then in an absolute sense it's an "upgrade".

For the OP:  how about a sample or two from your recordings with which you're not satisfied, including associated details like full list of gear, mic placement & mounting, recording location and environment, etc.?  It's possible what you dislike about the Beyer recordings to date isn't unique to the Beyer's, but rather a function of some other factor(s).

[SmokinJoe]

Someone who knows more about line arrays than I do should chime in....   But I think if you are humping the stack I think that's going to emphasize the low end more than the high end.  You get the low frequency energy directly, where the hi end is dispersed.  If that's what's going on, then you probably won't find a mic change making a huge difference.

Rather than trying to boost the midrange in EQ, how about rolling off the bottom end?  Probably in post, or maybe even with a HPF which is probably built into the 661?  A simple HPF at 50 or 80hz will reduce the thud but not the warmth, and ultimately reducing the overall signal, so maybe you can use less than 45db of attenuation.

[newplanet7]

I am just going to disagree with you here. < snip > I don't see them as darker than schoeps at all.
I have not heard any Beyer tapes that sound over bassy.

It isn't that the Beyer's are inherently more bassy, but they do have -- to my ears, anyway -- a distinctly identifiable sonic signature that I would classify in the most general sense as "dark", and perhaps this is what the OP references.

I fully agree with that. I was stating that They were pretty much even with the schoeps flavor, and disagreeing with the Schoeps being
bright or pulling down less bass. My intent here was to just let him know that the Schoeps would be on par with the Beyers. Hence my earlier post.

I would put the schoeps and Beyers in the same frame without hesitation.

Hi dave! If you want to keep the great sound quality that you know the Beyers have, but shoot for something that isn't as bass driven,
I would check out the ck1x/mk46 AKG remote option in the yard sale section. (WHICK IS NOW SOLD!! Damn)
I have not heard enough Busman tapes to say what flavor they are. Any way the KG ACTIVE THING IS RIGHT AROUND THE CORNER.

[ninjadave]

thanks to all for the great tips and pointers and suggestions. i do find that the farther i am away from the stack, the less bassy it is and very much controllable in post, recording 24bit. however, i do also notice the bass extremely heavy when very close to the stack at clubs and smaller venues so i'm gonna pull that back, however, i might just roll with the bass rolloff on the mic body tomorrow night and see that doesn't fix the up close, in front of the stack taping thud i'm getting. if it takes all the bass out, hopefully i can put  some back but that probably should work considering the amount of bass that is getting on tape that close up. if not, will then move away from stacks. 

i checked pricing on the milabs at full compass, over $2k now for the pair unmatched. i was gonna buy that set in the yard sale a month ago and didn't (DUMB). oh well, gonna stick with what i got and if the milabs fall my way for a decent price, hopefully someone will be interested in my beyers.  i guess there is always ebay but seems its never a good enough price.

thanks again to all.

[acidjack]

thanks to all for the great tips and pointers and suggestions. i do find that the farther i am away from the stack, the less bassy it is and very much controllable in post, recording 24bit. however, i do also notice the bass extremely heavy when very close to the stack at clubs and smaller venues so i'm gonna pull that back, however, i might just roll with the bass rolloff on the mic body tomorrow night and see that doesn't fix the up close, in front of the stack taping thud i'm getting. if it takes all the bass out, hopefully i can put  some back but that probably should work considering the amount of bass that is getting on tape that close up. if not, will then move away from stacks. 

i checked pricing on the milabs at full compass, over $2k now for the pair unmatched. i was gonna buy that set in the yard sale a month ago and didn't (DUMB). oh well, gonna stick with what i got and if the milabs fall my way for a decent price, hopefully someone will be interested in my beyers.  i guess there is always ebay but seems its never a good enough price.

thanks again to all.

There is no reason to ever do that.  Rolling off bass in post is virtually always better.

Again, I'd look to MBHOs as well.  If you want a brighter-sounding mic, well, they're much brighter.  And I think new, with the Naiant tinybox as your pre, the entire thing is like $1300. 

[johnmuge]

http://archive.org/details/gba2009-12-17.flac16

I used the bass rolloff on the mics once if you'd like to check it out.

[jbou]

Again, I'd look to MBHOs as well.... And I think new, with the Naiant tinybox as your pre, the entire thing is like $1300.

I believe this is correct based on pricing I have seen. A set of caps run $600ish. Hypers a little more expensive. A pair of collettes is $400ish. Then get a cable maker to make a cable to go from collettes to tinybox, and then the tinybox

[ninjadave]

thanks for the link to the rolled off recording. not sure if i'm going to run it that way. will decide tonight.

do i have to run the MBHO's with a tinybox? can i run them straight into my marantz PMD661? would i need the bodies then? i've looked at those mics, I'm not exactly sure which ones will work for me stealthing....there seem to many versions or combos... thanks.

MBP603A is what i think i want to run direct into my 661? that won't pose problem for gain or anything, i don't mind the bodies or the length. the capsule part seems pretty long and rigid, i might have a problem mounting that in a hat though?

what about 648A, seems like smaller footprint but fixed attachment, but mic looks easier to head mount. draws less power too, is it similar in sound (ie. same capsules). THANKS for any info.

[acidjack]

thanks for the link to the rolled off recording. not sure if i'm going to run it that way. will decide tonight.

do i have to run the MBHO's with a tinybox? can i run them straight into my marantz PMD661? would i need the bodies then? i've looked at those mics, I'm not exactly sure which ones will work for me stealthing....there seem to many versions or combos... thanks.

MBP603A is what i think i want to run direct into my 661? that won't pose problem for gain or anything, i don't mind the bodies or the length. the capsule part seems pretty long and rigid, i might have a problem mounting that in a hat though?

what about 648A, seems like smaller footprint but fixed attachment, but mic looks easier to head mount. draws less power too, is it similar in sound (ie. same capsules). THANKS for any info.

I don't own MBHOs so you'd be better off talking to someone who does, but the answers on how to run them are:

You can go caps>tinybox without bodies
You can go caps>remote cables>bodies>661.  Costs more than just buying caps

The actual full bodied mic seems big for hat mounting, but you never know...  If you want something easier to stick in a hat that can go direct into your 661 there are also the Sennheiser MKH-8040/8040.  They do pick up a ton of low end, but they have a mid-HF emphasis as well.

[ninjadave]

thanks for the link to the rolled off recording. not sure if i'm going to run it that way. will decide tonight.

do i have to run the MBHO's with a tinybox? can i run them straight into my marantz PMD661? would i need the bodies then? i've looked at those mics, I'm not exactly sure which ones will work for me stealthing....there seem to many versions or combos... thanks.

MBP603A is what i think i want to run direct into my 661? that won't pose problem for gain or anything, i don't mind the bodies or the length. the capsule part seems pretty long and rigid, i might have a problem mounting that in a hat though?

what about 648A, seems like smaller footprint but fixed attachment, but mic looks easier to head mount. draws less power too, is it similar in sound (ie. same capsules). THANKS for any info.

I don't own MBHOs so you'd be better off talking to someone who does, but the answers on how to run them are:

You can go caps>tinybox without bodies
You can go caps>remote cables>bodies>661.  Costs more than just buying caps

The actual full bodied mic seems big for hat mounting, but you never know...  If you want something easier to stick in a hat that can go direct into your 661 there are also the Sennheiser MKH-8040/8040.  They do pick up a ton of low end, but they have a mid-HF emphasis as well.

if i run it thru tinybox, can you run into R9 via 1/8 in?  i hate to add a pre to the setup but the r9 is smaller and i have a tascam dr2 as well i could use. caps and collettes can be had where? tinybox is probably too far out to get one in time for fall tours i'm attending...