Topic: C4's sound bright? Also DPAs

[it-goes-to-eleven]

I posted this earlier today on the SP team board but haven't heard anything.  I was hoping it might get some more exposure here.

I've been doing a little taping with my new C4's (SP-C4>MiniMe>USB Sony Vaio).

Most recently was the Umphrey's show at Bell's.   The mics have really only taped one loud shower prior to UM so they are very new.  I setup DIN FOB about 8' up with the card caps.   There is a DPA 4023>V3 (ORTF)>D8 seed of this show on etree that was made within 12" from my rig.

I've been having some fun comparing the C4s to those DPAs and trying to pick apart the differences.  Nevermind that the DPAs cost 10 times as much.  For comparison, my show was dithered from 24 bits to 16 with Cool Edit and UV22HR.

These comments are based on listening with Sennheiser HD280s and Linn SARAs.  Non-normalized levels were very comparable to begin with but I did normalize to reduce any volume induced bias.

Initial impressions:

The C4's are bright.  Especially with vocals.  In some cases they seem too bright.  In other cases, they seem to provide clearer detail than the DPAs.  I cannot listen to the C4 version at same volume level as the DPA because the brightness is just too much.

The DPA version has Much fatter bass. Not sure which is accurate here but I'm guessing the DPAs. Not sure if I'd say the DPA bass is muddy.  It shakes my floor, the C4 does not.

Audience noise rejection seemed comparable, though I did not check it with specific quiet passages.

A couple of nights ago, I mic'd my SARAs in DIN from about 5 feet away to compare the C4's to some SP-CMC4's and some newly acquired DPA 4061's.  Source material was Michael Hedges Live on the Double Planet.  The DPA bass was amazing. My impression of the C4 brightness was the same.  Crank up the DPA version and it gets Loud. Crank up the C4 version and the brightness becomes too much.

I'm being critical here asking these $300 mics to compete with $3K.  They're close.

Is some brightness typical with the C4s?  Should I expect the brightness to diminish with break-in?  Anything I can do to tame this brightness with setup, etc?

I'm recording The Headhunters on Thursday at the Blind Pig and I'm leaning towards using the small DPAs (which kinda blows my mind).  It is a small venue and I hope to be on a stand FOB.  I'm hoping to head down there tonight and tape a free band with both pairs of mics.

Thanks!

[Nick Graham]

Well, the MME you're running behind them should take the brightness down a notch anyway.

If they're as bright as you say, I'd hate to hear 'em in front of a V3!

[KingReptile]

I dont feel on there best day those C-4s could touch those 4061's or 4060's those are the best little mic...

[jimmc]

I run:  C4's (usually cards, DIN) > Digi-mod UA-5 > optical-in JB3 and I dont think my recordings are overly bright.  I've actually noticed more of a bass rumble than brightness.
Just my $0.02.
Everyones ear is different though.  Still for the price, I love my C4's.
Jim

[Busman Audio]

This is a very informative thread thank you all. A +T to you all for the nice comparisons and general opinions of these mics.

I think those C4s might sound better with a w-mod UA5 behind them.

[Chuck]

I ran C4's>Mini-Me for a while and thought it was a warm combination. I certainly would not say that the C4's are bright sounding microphones. I ran MBHO's for a while... Now, those are bright mics.
I have never run the DPA's, but I do know they are a more 'natural' sounding microphone.

Is it possible you had the high pass filter (on the mics) on when running the C4's?

[Ray76]

def. not bright, imho. warm more like it , no matter which pre ive used.
samples of a show i taped using

c4s>wmodua5>jb3 are here

http://www.archive.org/audio/etree-details-db.php?id=24571

Ray

[jimmc]

This is a very informative thread thank you all. A +T to you all for the nice comparisons and general opinions of these mics.

I think those C4s might sound better with a w-mod UA5 behind them.

Here is a nice way to see what you think sounds best w/ the C4s as far as moded UA-5's go.
http://www.oade.com/Tapers_Section/rig_list.html

Personally, I liked the p-mod the best, but its all in the ear of the listener.
Jim

[marc0789]

I posted this earlier today on the SP team board but haven't heard anything.  I was hoping it might get some more exposure here.

I've been doing a little taping with my new C4's (SP-C4>MiniMe>USB Sony Vaio).

Most recently was the Umphrey's show at Bell's.   The mics have really only taped one loud shower prior to UM so they are very new.  I setup DIN FOB about 8' up with the card caps.   There is a DPA 4023>V3 (ORTF)>D8 seed of this show on etree that was made within 12" from my rig.

I've been having some fun comparing the C4s to those DPAs and trying to pick apart the differences.  Nevermind that the DPAs cost 10 times as much.  For comparison, my show was dithered from 24 bits to 16 with Cool Edit and UV22HR.

These comments are based on listening with Sennheiser HD280s and Linn SARAs.  Non-normalized levels were very comparable to begin with but I did normalize to reduce any volume induced bias.

Initial impressions:

The C4's are bright.  Especially with vocals.  In some cases they seem too bright.  In other cases, they seem to provide clearer detail than the DPAs.  I cannot listen to the C4 version at same volume level as the DPA because the brightness is just too much.

The DPA version has Much fatter bass. Not sure which is accurate here but I'm guessing the DPAs. Not sure if I'd say the DPA bass is muddy.  It shakes my floor, the C4 does not.

Audience noise rejection seemed comparable, though I did not check it with specific quiet passages.

A couple of nights ago, I mic'd my SARAs in DIN from about 5 feet away to compare the C4's to some SP-CMC4's and some newly acquired DPA 4061's.  Source material was Michael Hedges Live on the Double Planet.  The DPA bass was amazing. My impression of the C4 brightness was the same.  Crank up the DPA version and it gets Loud. Crank up the C4 version and the brightness becomes too much.

I'm being critical here asking these $300 mics to compete with $3K.  They're close.

Is some brightness typical with the C4s?  Should I expect the brightness to diminish with break-in?  Anything I can do to tame this brightness with setup, etc?

I'm recording The Headhunters on Thursday at the Blind Pig and I'm leaning towards using the small DPAs (which kinda blows my mind).  It is a small venue and I hope to be on a stand FOB.  I'm hoping to head down there tonight and tape a free band with both pairs of mics.

Thanks!

no way you can accurately compare c4>mme to 4023>v3. no way. and if the c4 sound that bright into a mme, they'd be about unbearable into a v3, imo. and no they're not "close". imho.

[BC]

also don't forget mic config can have a big influence on the recording's tonal balance. If the DPA's were run true ORTF and you ran your C4's in a narrower config (pointing more directly towards the stacks), this will accentuate the high end on the C4 tape.

[marc0789]

also don't forget mic config can have a big influence on the recording's tonal balance. If the DPA's were run true ORTF and you ran your C4's in a narrower config (pointing more directly towards the stacks), this will accentuate the high end on the C4 tape.

and bring out lotsa bass in the 4023 tape, if true ortf.

[marc0789]

but don't get me wrong. these are fine, fine mics, particularly for the price and accessories included. I have lotsa o-dog tapes and they're all solid to very good.

[plucks]

hows the detail in the DPAs comared to your C4s...
No doubt the bass would be tighter & the highs not so harsh in the 4022s compared to the C4s.  Thats part of the reason they cost so much.

As it has been said tough to do a true comparison of mics unless the pre/ad's are the same....it helps get a good idea tho no doubt about it!!

Frenchy--i love those 4052s!!!

[jason]

Hey Freelunch! That was me taping next to you at bells.  For clarification, I did run the 4023's in true ORTF, using the ORTF/XY bar.
From what I could remember at the show, it was extremely bassy, and I anticipated that, initially wanting to run XY to reduce the boomyness, but it was windy that night and the windscreens don't fit in XY, so I ran ORTF anyway. 

To my surprise, as bassy as the sound was when we were there, the recording is not nearly as muddy or boomy as I thought it would be.  The bottom end is actually quite a bit clearer than I remember it.

I don't think you can compare the two recordings though. The MMe is different from the V3, based on the few comparisons I've done when I've run the dpas straight into a mme (which I don't like).  If you had a V2 in front of the MMe, it'd be a bit closer, but even still, that little bit of warmth the mme brings to recordings cannot be compared to the transparency of a lunatec..imo.

Anyway, nice meeting ya that night. I'll never forget the massive pile of empty beer cups, guardian of the taperless tapers section ;o)

Jason

[Evil Taper]

If you have 4061s get within 10 feet of the stage if possible.  Too close and you might miss the vocal throw at some clubs so watch out.  I can't say I have any complaint about the DPAs except that the omni effect can suck it a car   The bass is always FAT and CLEAN, even if it sounds like shit in the venue.  Try the jecklin disc also, it works fabulously with those mics, think pinpoint spacial information while listening with phones.  +T to me for fluffing my mics once:D