Topic: Help: tube options and sources

[Brian Skalinder]

[0] Intro

Alright, I'm waaaaaay overdue for tube replacement in my YS Audio Symphonies.  It takes the following tubes:

# | Type  | Application
=========================================
1 | 6X4   | rectifier
1 | 12AX7 | input (will likely sub 5751)
2 | 12AX7 | output (will likely sub 5751)

I've checked out Joe's Tube Lore write-up in the Audio Asylum FAQ - interesting stuff, and based on his self-described biases I suspect I'll like the tubes he prefers.  And besides...trying different tubes is half the fun, right?  I don't have gobs of cash lying around, and I'd like to get at least 2 different sets of tubes, so I'm thinking < $30/ea for the 12AX7 / 5751 and 6X4  (Is this even realistic?  Doable?  Am I crazy to spend so much / little?).  So, a few questions:

[1] Matching

Is matching worth it?  I have a fairly sensitive ear, so I'm wondering if it's worth doing.  I assume (if its even worth doing) I only need to match the 2 output and it's not necessary to match the single input to the two output, but...I could be wrong.  What are your experiences?

[2] 6X4

Does the make / model of the 6X4 rectifier tube really make a significant difference?  I suspect so, but I've found only two 6X4 in my online searches so far:

$/EA | Make & model
==================================================================================
$10  | JAN / Philips 6X4WA
$29  | Genelex 6X4 (think this is really much better than the above?)

Any other recommendations for either of the above or alternatives (including sources)?  Right now I'm leaning towards one of each for comparison's sake.

[3] 12AX7 / 5751

I'm having a tough time finding places that provide enough info to determine the specific tube type.  For example, determining if the tube is GE gray or black plate.  Some sources have pics, but without a reference for how dark the black should be, tough to tell whether a tube is gray or black plate.  Here's what I've found so far:

$/EA | Make & model
====================================================================================
5751 5751 5751 5751 5751 5751 5751 5751 5751 5751 5751 5751 5751 5751 5751 5751 5751
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
$10  | Sovtek 5751 (what the heck, might as well try some cheap ones)
$12  | Sovtek 5751 (same as above, matched, alt source to above)
$20  | GE JG-5751 (are these gray or black plate?)
$25  | GE JG-5751 (same as above, matched pair; are these gray or black plate?)
$18  | GE JAN-5751 (are these gray or black plate?)
$15  | GE JAN-5751 (no matching)
$20  | GE JAN-5751 (same as above, "gold grade" matching)
$25  | GE JAN-5751 (same as above, "platinum grade" matching)
$27  | Amperex 5751 (per Joe's FAQ, same as GE...so prolly not worth the extra $!)
$32  | Amperex 5751 (same as above, matched)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
12AX7 12AX7 12AX7 12AX7 12AX7 12AX7 12AX7 12AX7 12AX7 12AX7 12AX7 12AX7 12AX7 12AX7
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
$09  | Tesla / JJ 12AX7S
$10  | Tesla / JJ 12AX7S (same as above, matched)
$14  | Electro Harmonix 12AX7EH
$08  | Sovtek 12AX7WA
$11  | Sovtek 12AX7WB (supposedly more "stable" than the WB)
$11  | Amperex 12AX7A (worth the extra cost?)
$35  | Amperex 12AX7A (matched, worth the extra cost?)
$10  | Svetlana 12AX7 (unmatched)
$15  | Svetlana 12AX7 (same as above, matched)
$15  | Tung-Sol 12AX7 (unmatched)
$20  | Tung-Sol 12AX7 (same as above, matched)

Right now I'm leaning towards the gold-matched GE JG-5751 and matched Sovtek 5751.  Any recommendations on which two to select from the above list, or options not listed above (remember < $30/tube price guideline - not a totally rigid budget, but I'm not looking to spend $80/ea)?

[4] Sources

Here's what I've found so far.  Any suggestions or recommendations on alternative sources for these or other recommended tubes?

http://www.vacuumtubes.com/
http://thetubestore.com
http://www.upscaleaudio.com
http://www.nebsnow.com/LordValve
http://kcanostubes.com/
http://www.mojomusicalsupply.com
http://www.tubesandmore.com/
http://www.house-of-tubes.com
http://www.torresengineering.com/
http://store.triodestore.com
http://www.tubedepot.com
http://www.tubeworld.com/
http://www.vacuumtubes.net/
http://tubes.buybeach.com/
http://www.tubeman.com/
http://partsconnexion.com/
http://greenstoneusa.com/
http://www.elexs.com/
http://www.audiotubes.com/
http://www.audioclassics.com/
http://www.tubesandmore.com/

And checked a whole slew of places from http://www.worldtubeaudio.com/directory/categories/kategorie_11.htm

[Nick Culbreth]

When I retubed my Symphonies I swapped out the rectifier and noticed no audible change in sound, but as always YMMV.  I would suggest trying to get matched tubes for the output but if you get a good deal on unmatched tubes (particularly NOS varieties)  I wouldn't hesitate to try them out to see if you like them and then you can shell out the extra money for the matched set the next time around.

When I tinkered with the Symphonies tubes I found that I really liked the Sylvania 5751s for the output tubes, especially when I matched them with an Amperex Orange Globe 12AX7 for the input.  I think the Symphonies and the 5751 variety are a good match so I'd look to add a set to your arsenal to see if they're the type of sound you're looking for.   Of the varieties you've listed I'd try one of the GE varieties or maybe even an RCA if you can find them at a reasonable price - I think you'll be more pleased with any of the NOS American 5751s than you would be with the Russian mades.

With the 12AX7s either the JJ/Tesla or the Ei Elites varietiey, I've tried both and thought they are the best sounding of the current production stuff.  I'd be very careful about purchasing Amperex branded tubes, the brand name Amperex and Bugleboy were sold and the new owner has been slapping the label on Chinese tubes and pawning them off as the NOS variety, judging by the price you listed I'd be willing to bet you'll be getting the fake.  Given your budget I'd look into some of the American made NOS tubes which don't have the same reputation as the Western Europeans so they can actually be found for a reasonable price, otherwise try the JJs.

Good luck with your tube rolling. 

[Brian Skalinder]

Thanks for the feedback, Nick.  I had trouble finding Sylvania and RCA 5751s in a price range with which I was comfortable - especially given I wanted to try out a range of tubes on a limited budget - so this round I went with a couple of each of:

JAN-Phillips 6X4
GE JG-5751
Electro Harmonix 12AX7
Ei Elite Gold 12AX7
JJ / Tesla 12AX7

I figure I'll get a feel for what these sound like, save up a bit more cash, and then maybe try out just a pair or two of something a step or two up in the quality ladder.  At any rate, *anything* will sound better than the very tiiiiiiiired Chinese tubes currently in my Symphonies.  I can see this getting addicting...   

For anyone interested, here are some tube sources I found in my searches - no idea on selection, pricing, quality, reliability, etc., these're just places I came across in my online searching.  YMMV.

http://www.tubesandmore.com/
http://www.audioclassics.com/
http://www.audiotubes.com/
http://www.elexs.com/
http://greenstoneusa.com/
http://www.house-of-tubes.com/home/
http://www.mojomusicalsupply.com/
http://partsconnexion.com/
http://store.triodestore.com/
http://www.tubecollectors.org/
http://www.tubedepot.com/
http://www.tubemonger.com/ (e
http://www.thetubestore.com/
http://www.tubeman.com/ (edited to add)
http://www.tubeworld.com/
http://www.upscaleaudio.com/
http://tubes.buybeach.com/
http://www.vacuumtubes.com/ (edited to add)
http://www.vacuumtubes.net/

[Tim]

I love my JJ 12au7's... great, great value

In my rig they were very nearly identical to the 3x's as expensive RCA Cleartops that Nick had let me borrow.... ymmv but I was pretty impressed. They were the stock tubes that came with my amp and I was ready to ditch them but the forced me to keep them... my wallet isn't complaining

have fun Brian, your ears are going to be very happy... switching the chinese el34's out on my amp for some Svetlana's was pretty eye-opening

Roll Tube

[barren4]

Tube neophyte here. 

I recently swapped JJ / Tesla 12AX7 from Triode Electronics for the stock chinese output tubes in my Symphony +.  Overall, clarity improved across the board.  The tighening up w/o lessening of the bass end was most apparent though. 

Now, I'm looking forward to the next experiment.  Hmmm, Sylvania 5751s w/ an Amperex Orange Globe 12AX7

[Nick Culbreth]

Now, I'm looking forward to the next experiment.  Hmmm, Sylvania 5751s w/ an Amperex Orange Globe 12AX7

I posted some thoughts on tube rolling with the Symphonies awhile back and the Sylvania 5751 and Amperex 12AX7 was by far my favorite combination, besting even my Telefunken 12AX7s.  The only problem with the Sylvania 5751s is that they've become pretty rare and downright expensive, I think I spent $80 per tube and I believe the price has gone up since.  If you're serious about finding a pair check out audiogon, from time to time a pair will pop up.

Thanks for the feedback, Nick. I had trouble finding Sylvania and RCA 5751s in a price range with which I was comfortable - especially given I wanted to try out a range of tubes on a limited budget - so this round I went with a couple of each of:

JAN-Phillips 6X4
GE JG-5751
Electro Harmonix 12AX7
Ei Elite Gold 12AX7
JJ / Tesla 12AX7

I figure I'll get a feel for what these sound like, save up a bit more cash, and then maybe try out just a pair or two of something a step or two up in the quality ladder. At any rate, *anything* will sound better than the very tiiiiiiiired Chinese tubes currently in my Symphonies. I can see this getting addicting...

That sounds like a good plan Brian, I think that any of the above tubes will be a considerable upgrade over the Chinese tubes.  Be sure to share your thoughts once you get a chance to try them out. 

In my rig they were very nearly identical to the 3x's as expensive RCA Cleartops that Nick had let me borrow.... ymmv but I was pretty impressed. They were the stock tubes that came with my amp and I was ready to ditch them but the forced me to keep them... my wallet isn't complaining

Bah, I paid less than $6 per RCA tube... You've just got to know where to shop. 

[Brian Skalinder]

Bah, I paid less than $6 per RCA tube... You've just got to know where to shop.

Care to share your sources?  Or is this the kinda thing where people don't reveal their sources in order to ensure others don't buy 'em out?

[Mic D]

Here is what I use in my audio symphonies +. Someone from A'gon suggested I try them out.

http://www.torresengineering.com/newgroovtub11.html

I've never compared them to the symphonies' stock tubes, but I was told they make a dramatic difference.

[Liquid Meat]

I didn't care for the JAN tubes. They seemed less musical and sloppy in the bottom. Sovateks seemed a little brittle to me up top.

[Brian Skalinder]

I didn't care for the JAN tubes.

Which JAN?  12AX7?  5751?  Rectifier?  Other?  From which manufacturer?  Just curious...

[Liquid Meat]

Sorry. They were Philips 12AX7. The others were 12AX7 too. I have used several rectifier tubes and didn't notice any big changes.

[Nick's Picks]

Here is what I use in my audio symphonies +. Someone from A'gon suggested I try them out.

http://www.torresengineering.com/newgroovtub11.html

I've never compared them to the symphonies' stock tubes, but I was told they make a dramatic difference.

I was going to suggest the same thing.  I hear nothing but good things from these groove tubes

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

Here is what I use in my audio symphonies +. Someone from A'gon suggested I try them out.

http://www.torresengineering.com/newgroovtub11.html

I've never compared them to the symphonies' stock tubes, but I was told they make a dramatic difference.

I was going to suggest the same thing.  I hear nothing but good things from these groove tubes

Those will drop in replace a 5751?

[Nick's Picks]

what do I know...i run a digital amp.

I had read about these in a symphonies thread on agon.

[Brian Skalinder]

Though I'm still waiting on the 5751s I ordered, and the new rectifier tubes, I just tossed in a JJ / Tesla 12AX7 for the input, and two Ei Elite Gold 12AX7s for the outputs, and...wow.  Just...WOW.

What a world of difference relative to the very worn out Chinese tubes with which the Symphonies came.  I wish I'd've gotten these new tubes before the Chinese tubes wore out, so I could offer a better comparison.  But replacing the worn out tubes results in thicker, more robust bass, better extension; mids have regained their richness / detail; highs are coming through clearly and crisply instead of the previously dull, flat sound from before; and the soundstage has opened up nicely.  I'm kicking myself for not replacing the old, tired tubes earlier.  Anyone out there who's been delinquent in replacing their old tubes, swap them out NOW!  Can't wait to roll different tube combos.  This is gonna be fun!

[Liquid Meat]

Where did you get your Ei's. I need to get some new 12AX7's as well.

[Brian Skalinder]

Where did you get your Ei's. I need to get some new 12AX7's as well.

Ei Elite Gold 12AX7
JJ / Tesla  12AX7
Electro Harmonix 12AX7
from http://www.tubedepot.com/

JAN / Phillips 6X4
GE JG-5751
from http://www.thetubestore.com/

After I get some more cash saved away, it's going to be tough to resist spending some cash on more expensive tubes to see how they compare. 

[Tim]

awesome! glad you're enjoying the changes Brian.... have fun!

[macdaddy]

just (this morning) rolled in two Sovtek 12ax7wxt+ tubes to replace my 12ax7eh tubes that were just about at the end of their rope...

more details, esp in the high end, but they are less forgiving up there, also...


great thread. thanks for all of the wonderful links. +t

[BobW]

Does the make / model of the 6X4 rectifier tube really make a significant difference?  I suspect so, but I've found only two 6X4 in my online searches so far:

No, neither does the power cord  <ducks VERY low, very FAST>
Just avoid the solid-state 6X4 replacement devices.
The theory here is, if your power supply was designed for tube rectification, it will sound best with a tube rectifier.
If your amp is properly designed for solid-state diodes, it will be fine with them.
If you cannot find a tube replacement and want to switch to solid-state, you need to add a few (like a dozen or two) components into the power supply to make it sound good.
FWIW, a powersupply which is hybrid solid-state and tube is as good as a tube alone PS.
Something about conduction curves....  whatever they are.       

[Nick Culbreth]

What a world of difference relative to the very worn out Chinese tubes with which the Symphonies came.  I wish I'd've gotten these new tubes before the Chinese tubes wore out, so I could offer a better comparison.  But replacing the worn out tubes results in thicker, more robust bass, better extension; mids have regained their richness / detail; highs are coming through clearly and crisply instead of the previously dull, flat sound from before; and the soundstage has opened up nicely.  I'm kicking myself for not replacing the old, tired tubes earlier.  Anyone out there who's been delinquent in replacing their old tubes, swap them out NOW!  Can't wait to roll different tube combos.  This is gonna be fun!

I'm glad to hear that the tubes worked out for you, it really is amazing how much of a difference upgrading the tubes can make.  In regards to my sources, I've used Triode Electronics and Upscale Audio for new and NOS tubes and I've had very positive experiences with both.  Upscale Audio's tube prices are a little on the high side but they only sell the highest quality tubes and Kevin Deal is great at helping you select the best tube for your application.  The best deals can usually be found on Audiogon or Ebay, the only problem with these sources is that you're dealing with individuals who may or may not be selling genuine tubes.  The best way to avoid buying fakes is to carefully examine the pictures of the tubes and try to see if the internals are consistant with thre real tubes.  If the buyer can't provide a picture it's usually a good idea to pass.  Also it's always a good idea to ask how/if the tubes were tested and even better test them yourself if you have access to a tube tester.   

[shane]

Just to add another source for both new and NOS tubes:
http://www.dougstubes.com/
I've ordered tubes from Doug for my guitar amps and been very happy

Shane

[Brian Skalinder]

FWIW, I've toyed around a little bit with different tube combinations.  With my Audio Experience Symphonies > McCormack DNA-1 > B&W DM610i and now Von Schweikert VR-1s, I've tried:

Input: Electro Harmonix 12AX7;  Output:  JJ / Tesla 12AX7
Robust bass, but a little sloppy for my tastes.  Mids a little muddied, and highs a little spitty and fatiguing.  Didn't like this combo at all.

Input: GE JG-5751;  Output:  GE JG-5751
Came across pretty thin in the bass, sweet and detailed midrange, cleaner and clearer highs than the 12AX7 tubes.  Overall, too thin anemic for my tastes, though I loved the midrange detail.

Input: JJ / Tesla 12AX7;  Output:  GE JG-5751
Helped fill out the bass a bit more, less midrange detail than above, still pretty clean highs.  I liked this combo a fair amount.  Until...

Input: Ei Elite Gold;  Output:  GE JG-5751
My favorite combo so far.  Much fuller, more robust bass - woof.  Retains nice midrange detail, and the highs are a little more recessed than previously.  Highs maybe a little too recessed, but I have some listening to do before I swap around again.

So far, so good.  This is fun!

[macdaddy]

+t

great info, brian. thanks.