Topic: Speaker recommendations $4-5k?

[cshepherd]

+T for beating back the VSA junkies!

Chris

[Nick's Picks]

I can see that (the GPs better on classical and vocals), but we are talking about a ROCK BOX for massively loud Grateful Dead. 

that said, VSA Junkieness all the way

[EScott]

oh yea..
the 4jr's blow the doors off of the GPs, no doubt.

Depends on what you listend to.I listed to 50% classical and 50% rock. SF GP's and tubes blow to the doors of VR4jr.s on strings and female vocals. The midrange is sooo buttery on violins. That said... If I hadn't moved back to the city I would have sold my Grand Pianos and picked up a pair of Focal 1027be's. I still may do that at some point but they are $7500.00 retail.

It's interesting you make this point - I took quite a mix of discs with me when I listened to both sets of speakers.  Just from memory, I had a Diana Krall disc, Dark Side, Norah Jones, Yo Yo Ma, and some Panic's Light Fuse.  I found the VSA lline was the best all around.  This is not a slam at all on the SF's, they are awesome speakers - it just proves to me that everyone hears something different!

[Nick's Picks]

the Focals are supposed to be a great rock and roll box as well.
Stereophile called the grand utopia B the "ultimate" in that regard.
but...who's got that spare $65k?

[Stagger]

oh yea..
the 4jr's blow the doors off of the GPs, no doubt.

Depends on what you listend to.I listed to 50% classical and 50% rock. SF GP's and tubes blow to the doors of VR4jr.s on strings and female vocals. The midrange is sooo buttery on violins. That said... If I hadn't moved back to the city I would have sold my Grand Pianos and picked up a pair of Focal 1027be's. I still may do that at some point but they are $7500.00 retail.

It's interesting you make this point - I took quite a mix of discs with me when I listened to both sets of speakers.  Just from memory, I had a Diana Krall disc, Dark Side, Norah Jones, Yo Yo Ma, and some Panic's Light Fuse.  I found the VSA lline was the best all around.  This is not a slam at all on the SF's, they are awesome speakers - it just proves to me that everyone hears something different!

Of course! I'll admit I work for a company that used to sell SF speakers. When you get new speakers at 50% of new retail they sound more appealing (Focal probably has the best dealer accom out there at 65% off new so 1027be's are 3K..... Hmmm anyone want to buy a pair of *mint* Grand Piano's in black? 1900.00  ) But also I listended to a ton of stuff before I droped even that modest sum for my speaks. It isn't just what you listen to but what you drive them with. Sonus Faber + all tubes + SACD or DVD-A = classical music heaven.... rock is ok but it's a dark balance going in. I've listended to Carl's VR4jr and BAT more than once and I love it! I just don't know if it would be my chioce.

On the other hand I was listening to my 10/22/06 Panic DVD-A at wotk on a Krell stack with Martin Logan Vantages (one step below Summits) and it was frikking amazing! ML speakers always  S U C K E D on live recordings but these puppies put you right there. My OPs manager, that is not into this stuff at all, was completely floored by what he heard. He could noot believe that such a sound was possible both from a live recording and also from a home stereo.... I was close to agreeing with him and I do this stuff every day.

[EScott]

oh yea..
the 4jr's blow the doors off of the GPs, no doubt.

Depends on what you listend to.I listed to 50% classical and 50% rock. SF GP's and tubes blow to the doors of VR4jr.s on strings and female vocals. The midrange is sooo buttery on violins. That said... If I hadn't moved back to the city I would have sold my Grand Pianos and picked up a pair of Focal 1027be's. I still may do that at some point but they are $7500.00 retail.

It's interesting you make this point - I took quite a mix of discs with me when I listened to both sets of speakers.  Just from memory, I had a Diana Krall disc, Dark Side, Norah Jones, Yo Yo Ma, and some Panic's Light Fuse.  I found the VSA lline was the best all around.  This is not a slam at all on the SF's, they are awesome speakers - it just proves to me that everyone hears something different!

Of course! I'll admit I work for a company that used to sell SF speakers. When you get new speakers at 50% of new retail they sound more appealing (Focal probably has the best dealer accom out there at 65% off new so 1027be's are 3K..... Hmmm anyone want to buy a pair of *mint* Grand Piano's in black? 1900.00  ) But also I listended to a ton of stuff before I droped even that modest sum for my speaks. It isn't just what you listen to but what you drive them with. Sonus Faber + all tubes + SACD or DVD-A = classical music heaven.... rock is ok but it's a dark balance going in. I've listended to Carl's VR4jr and BAT more than once and I love it! I just don't know if it would be my chioce.

On the other hand I was listening to my 10/22/06 Panic DVD-A at wotk on a Krell stack with Martin Logan Vantages (one step below Summits) and it was frikking amazing! ML speakers always  S U C K E D on live recordings but these puppies put you right there. My OPs manager, that is not into this stuff at all, was completely floored by what he heard. He could noot believe that such a sound was possible both from a live recording and also from a home stereo.... I was close to agreeing with him and I do this stuff every day.

I push 100w of pure tubes per channel thru my 4jr's with a pair of Manley Snappers.  I have been extremely pleased with my results on anything from a live Panic show to Thelonius Monk playing solo.  To each his own... 

[it-goes-to-eleven]

If you listening space is a compromise, I think it will diminish the gains as you spend more and more on speakers. 

I paid $1300 for my VR4 gen I's on Audiogon (like new) and for the music you're playing it would be very hard to beat them.  There is a reason a lot of people like VSA.

I could turn around and easily sell them for what I paid. Without a doubt the VR4jr's look better (haven't heard them).  So you very well may wish to spend more to get a better appearance.  On the other hand, I actually like that the VR4's aren't covered with delicate wood veneer.

I still have my Martin Logan CLS in the basement listening room.. I bought them new around '88 (initial panels were bad and replaced under warranty about 6 mos later).  Hard to beat the level of detail from a good electrostatic. It really spoiled me. For years and years I found most cone speakers too muddy in general and lacking in soundstage. I'd rather have no bass than muddy bass..  I've seen lots of expensive speakers come and go from the market since then.

You might try regular audiogon searches by zipcode to see if anything interesting pops up nearby.

[nickgregory]

You might try regular audiogon searches by zipcode to see if anything interesting pops up nearby.

I do this all the time...great way to get to hear what speakers sound like before investing any coin

[Stagger]

Well if anyone is in the Chicago area and wants to hear my setup at any time drop me a line. My room here is less than ideal (I had to find a place to rent within a week of moving back to Chicago... I'll have a better room when I buy a place next spring).. also I'll be happy to play any of the systems at work like the Krell / ML for comparison.

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

we heard some Thiel CS2.4s,which were simply amazing! Anyone have experience with these? Also, they do not even recommend biamping/biwiring which will help with the cable budget a bit. I am interested to hear other speakers, but as I said, we do not live near a big city. Any other suggestions? So far, we loved the B&W 803s, and the Thiel CS2.4, but liked the Thiel better, more "airy", just felt damn real (and significantly cheaper)!

I ran Thiel CS2s for several years.  Thiels are very nice speakers.   I have VS4JRs now and love them but I have to admit that the 20yo Thiels at 1/5th the price were unbelieveable and in some ways more appealing than the VSA speakers.  The VSA speakers are like seeing through clear clean glass that disappears.  When the Thiels are set up correctly, it's like there is no glass.   The Thiels were extremely revealing of the upstream source, maybe more so that the VSAs.   When I make changes to equipment or wires, I can hear the difference with the VSAs but not as striking a difference as I could hear with the Thiels.

The the problem I had with the Thiels is that they were painfully revealing and they were very intolerant of poor upstream components and poor recordings.  They need a lot of reserved power to be driven correctly, a lot more power than the VSAs.  120wpc doubled down will just barely get you going.  The only time I had enough power was when I was running a 240wpc SS amp that would double current for 4ohm and 2ohm loads.   That precluded me using a tube amp within my budget.  They can be painfully bright if they are in a poor room.   I never could get my GF to give in on room treatments, so I could never eliminate the brightness.  They were very picky about placement and I was forever tweaking their positioning.   Ultimately, I stopped listening to the music and just listened to the speakers, so they had to go.

Before committing to the VR4JRs, I auditioned some of the CS2.4s and I heard all the same things I heard in the CS2, good and bad, although they are a better speaker.  I've read some people think the CS2.2 was the best of the 2 series and they avoid the 2.3 and 2.4 revisions.  I think if you check the archives on audiogon, most long time Thiel users prefer the 3.6 to the newer 2.4, though ymmv.   Since I've had the VR4JRs, I've been back listening to the music and the recording.  I've completely stopped fussing with placement.

[scervin]

Still not happy VSA moved cabinet build to China........