Author Topic: Running mics through the snake and phantom (Read 5770 times)

china_rider · « **on:** January 08, 2007, 01:36:01 AM »

Hey all... I've got a show coming up that I'm hoping to set up the 480s stage lip through the house snake and then keep the R4 by the board for a a patch. Obviously I turn the phantom off for the board patch but would I want to send phantom to pass through to my mics on the snake or will the board take care of that?

bl6216@yahoo.com · « **Reply #1 on:** January 08, 2007, 03:28:39 AM »

To me it sounds like you would just be taking 2 patchs from the board into the R4. So I don't think that you would need phantom to the mic's.

-Brian

Brian Skalinder · « **Reply #2 on:** January 08, 2007, 04:00:31 AM »

I've only used a snake once, at the HotHouse in Chicago. I ran my stage mics to the stage-end of the snake, the engineer pulled the corresponding ends running from the snake to the board, and instead of plugging them into the board I plugged them into my mic cables (which obviously ran to my R4) and applied phantom with the R4. I also took a pair of SBD XLRs into channels 3&4, directly from the board, no phantom.

anodyne33 · « **Reply #3 on:** January 08, 2007, 05:49:52 PM »

If you're taking direct outs from the inserts on the board for your 480 channels ask the engineer to feed them phantom and plug your insert cable in to the FIRST CLICK. Otherwise, just plug the fanout of the snake directly to the recorder and run phantom.

china_rider · « **Reply #4 on:** January 08, 2007, 06:55:01 PM »

This will be my first time with the snake so I won't know what I'm getting til I get there. Hopefully I can just run the snake xlr right into the R4. I really want to get a good matrix of Hot Buttered Rum String Band when the get here in a few weeks. If all else fails I can keep my mics back by the sbd but I hope I don't have to.

bluegrass_brad · « **Reply #5 on:** January 08, 2007, 07:15:59 PM »

HBRSB has no stage volume so onstage isnt going to get much in the way of instruments anyway. They also use in ears so there arent monitors for bleed either.

Roving Sign · « **Reply #6 on:** January 08, 2007, 07:18:27 PM »

Quote from: china_rider on January 08, 2007, 01:36:01 AM

Hey all... I've got a show coming up that I'm hoping to set up the 480s stage lip through the house snake and then keep the R4 by the board for a a patch. Obviously I turn the phantom off for the board patch but would I want to send phantom to pass through to my mics on the snake or will the board take care of that?

Assuming the R4 phantom is available on a per-channel basis...

The snake channels you will be using will not be connected to the board...the phantom will come from the R4.

(You could run them through the board - and use the inserts as anodyne33 suggests below - but - I think that is an unbalanced signal on the inserts - plus it puts you in the way of the soundman and puts lots of stuff in the signal path that you don't want.)

If you go XLR in on the board feed - the key is NOT turning on the phantom power - and making sure you can't do it by accident...I think a whole Mule show was screwed up once cuz someone turned the phantom on from their deck - and burned up the board...(and another story from a recent NY Jerry Joseph show sounds like something similar...though I haven't heard the backstory there yet...

)

Roving Sign · « **Reply #7 on:** January 08, 2007, 07:19:41 PM »

Quote from: bluegrass_brad on January 08, 2007, 07:15:59 PM

HBRSB has no stage volume so onstage isnt going to get much in the way of instruments anyway. They also use in ears so there arent monitors for bleed either.

Well - then...

Agree - maybe Soundboard + Room mics might fetch something more useful...

Patrick · « **Reply #8 on:** January 08, 2007, 07:23:45 PM »

I would definitely not recommend running your mics through the board, just have the house engineer unplug the cooresponding snake inputs from the board and plug them into your pre. Your phantom should only come from your pre and never the board. I do this all the time. Usually the engineer will give you the last two channels in the snake so you can stay out of the way of the band's channels.

That being said, watch out for some bad channels in the snake. Out of the 30 times I have done this, I'd say 20 times I've ecncounterd a bad channel or cable somwhere in the signal chain. Get there early and don't be afraid to ask the house guy for help, he may know which channels are bad, etc.

Good Luck!

Roving Sign · « **Reply #9 on:** January 08, 2007, 07:28:41 PM »

Quote from: Patrick on January 08, 2007, 07:23:45 PM

I would definitely not recommend running your mics through the board, I'd say 20 times I've ecncounterd a bad channel or cable somwhere in the signal chain. Get there early and don't be afraid to ask the house guy for help, he may know which channels are bad, etc.

Good Luck!

Good advice - specially for the travelling band...where the PA is being moved around.

Most situations - the snake has more channels than the board...so dont be suprised if the "extras" are channels that went bad - and were never fixed.

Patrick · « **Reply #10 on:** January 08, 2007, 07:37:54 PM »

Quote from: Roving Sign on January 08, 2007, 07:28:41 PM

Quote from: Patrick on January 08, 2007, 07:23:45 PM
I would definitely not recommend running your mics through the board, I'd say 20 times I've ecncounterd a bad channel or cable somwhere in the signal chain. Get there early and don't be afraid to ask the house guy for help, he may know which channels are bad, etc.

Good Luck!

Good advice - specially for the travelling band...where the PA is being moved around.

Most situations - the snake has more channels than the board...so dont be suprised if the "extras" are channels that went bad - and were never fixed.

Defintiely--

I've seen alot of venues opt to have multiple snakes placed around the stage, which result in MANY extra channels (having more available stage inputs than the soundboard can accomodate). 99% of the time those channels will be fine to take, but like I said the house sound guy should know every thing about the stage set up, and can save you hours of frustrating trial/error.

Roving Sign · « **Reply #11 on:** January 08, 2007, 07:43:05 PM »

Also - remember - some/most snakes have channels that go from the board back to the stage...(Not just stage > board..) So you can also run the board feed back through the snake to your deck (which would have to be near the stage/snake - - another approach.

Brian Skalinder · « **Reply #12 on:** January 08, 2007, 07:51:27 PM »

Quote from: Roving Sign on January 08, 2007, 07:43:05 PM

Also - remember - some/most snakes have channels that go from the board back to the stage...(Not just stage > board..) So you can also run the board feed back through the snake to your deck (which would have to be near the stage/snake - - another approach.

Per a suggestion from mmmatt a while back, I carry around 4 XLR barrels to do just that: 4 x XLR-f | XLR-f barrels + 4 x XLR-m | XLR-m barrels. Let's me turnaround the snake lines running from board > stage so they then run stage > board.

china_rider · « **Reply #13 on:** January 08, 2007, 08:19:53 PM »

Quote from: Brian Skalinder on January 08, 2007, 07:51:27 PM

Quote from: Roving Sign on January 08, 2007, 07:43:05 PM
Also - remember - some/most snakes have channels that go from the board back to the stage...(Not just stage > board..) So you can also run the board feed back through the snake to your deck (which would have to be near the stage/snake - - another approach.

Per a suggestion from mmmatt a while back, I carry around 4 XLR barrels to do just that: 4 x XLR-f | XLR-f barrels + 4 x XLR-m | XLR-m barrels. Let's me turnaround the snake lines running from board > stage so they then run stage > board.

I actually have the barrels also.... I think maybe from the same post from mmmatt (or maybe a personal suggestion when I bought his R4). Sounds like with HBRSB running on stage/stage lip won't be that good of an idea. The venue they are playing at here in Phoenix is not really stereo and has a semicircle of monitors over the stage pointing out to the bar. With the speaker setup most of the bar has really good sound and the trick is getting away from the talkers. The SBD is twords the left side where there will be less people. I'm starting to think I should patch if they let me and then run my mics from the same general area. I think there will be less talkers there.

T+ to everyone for the info.

Church-Audio · « **Reply #14 on:** January 08, 2007, 10:09:49 PM »

Quote from: china_rider on January 08, 2007, 01:36:01 AM

Hey all... I've got a show coming up that I'm hoping to set up the 480s stage lip through the house snake and then keep the R4 by the board for a a patch. Obviously I turn the phantom off for the board patch but would I want to send phantom to pass through to my mics on the snake or will the board take care of that?

If the mics are going to your preamp and not thru the monitor or house console then you have to provide power for them. If your using any of the house boards then you have to use the house phantom power. By the way using a splitter with two phantom supplies connected to your mics will not damage them it will only increase the current available to the mics. Just a little tidbit of info.

BayTaynt3d · « **Reply #15 on:** January 08, 2007, 10:58:20 PM »

Quote from: Roving Sign on January 08, 2007, 07:43:05 PM

Also - remember - some/most snakes have channels that go from the board back to the stage...(Not just stage > board..) So you can also run the board feed back through the snake to your deck (which would have to be near the stage/snake - - another approach.

Yeah, but most likely that will end up being a LONG UNBALANCED run = not good. If you want to take advantage of the "returns," you're way better off using turnarounds (m-to-m and f-to-f XLR adapters) and still running your mics back to the SBD (b/c that will be a balanced run).

Teen Wolf Blitzer · « **Reply #16 on:** January 09, 2007, 11:30:03 AM »

Don't discount onstage Dana. I've had great success running matrix this way for HBRSB...although last month when they were here I tried MS 20 feet in front of the stage w/ a board. I really was happy with that result. Good luck. Josh is a way cool soundman. He'll set ya up and help ya. I had a bad board channel at that show and he moved shit around till it worked!

halleyscomet8 · « **Reply #17 on:** January 09, 2007, 02:40:19 PM »

Quote from: tapermark on January 09, 2007, 11:30:03 AM

Don't discount onstage Dana. I've had great success running matrix this way for HBRSB...although last month when they were here I tried MS 20 feet in front of the stage w/ a board. I really was happy with that result. Good luck. Josh is a way cool soundman. He'll set ya up and help ya. I had a bad board channel at that show and he moved shit around till it worked!

i second that. josh is a soper nice guy and easy to aproach. have fun and upload it to LMA

JiB97 · « **Reply #18 on:** January 09, 2007, 08:12:50 PM »

Allow me to throw in my suggestion:
Since omnis are out of the question at the Rhythm room, I would take a board feed and run it into the R4, and either use your 483's or maybe run M/S with TL's. Hell, you could even run one TL as the side channel, and maybe a 481 as the mid channel.

I have a feeling M/S would sound really nice in the Rhythm Room because of the way those speakers are set-up. It would be a lot of post-work to blend the SBD and then have to decode M/S, but I feel this might give you the most options, if you don't decide to run onstage and use the house snake.

china_rider · « **Reply #19 on:** January 09, 2007, 08:57:24 PM »

Hmmmm.... That is an Idea... I have not done m/s yet. With the location of the SBD it may be hard to get the patch and get the mics in the middle of the room. My cables are long enough... I guess I could tape them down. Dammit.... Now you got me thinking.

If I ran the TLs M/S I could still bring the 480s to run through your rig in case the MS does not turn out.

EDIT: Duh... could hopefully still use the snake for M/S and go stage lip.

JiB97 · « **Reply #20 on:** January 09, 2007, 09:10:00 PM »

Quote from: china_rider on January 09, 2007, 08:57:24 PM

Hmmmm.... That is an Idea... I have not done m/s yet. With the location of the SBD it may be hard to get the patch and get the mics in the middle of the room. My cables are long enough... I guess I could tape them down. Dammit.... Now you got me thinking. If I ran the TLs M/S I could still bring the 480s to run through your rig in case the MS does not turn out.

EDIT: Duh... could hopefully still use the snake for M/S and go stage lip.

Ya, I think that the SBD is probably like no more than 20 ft from where you could set up your stand.

Good call on using the 480s just in case. Could even run them through your W-Mod, into my JB3 @ 48khz. Lot of options. Hopefully Brian will show up, we'll have a nice little section going on.

I'm really hoping the crowd is respectful, and not the typical talk-fest that the Rhythm Room can be.

gratefulphish · « **Reply #21 on:** January 09, 2007, 11:19:22 PM »

Quote from: Brian Skalinder on January 08, 2007, 07:51:27 PM

Per a suggestion from mmmatt a while back, I carry around 4 XLR barrels to do just that: 4 x XLR-f | XLR-f barrels + 4 x XLR-m | XLR-m barrels. Let's me turnaround the snake lines running from board > stage so they then run stage > board.

Did you mean 4 x XLR-M>XLR-F barrels, and vice versa? Otherwise, they just sound like barrel connectors.

gratefulphish · « **Reply #22 on:** January 09, 2007, 11:24:09 PM »

In response to the OP, in this situation, if there is essentially no on-stage sound, then I would either go with the stand in the room, (but I always get sketched running my cables across traffic, even taping them down) or, it sounds like the PA is up high, so if there is somewhere to clamp up top and hang your mics, and run the cables along the ceiling back to the board avoiding the cables on the ground. My preferred MO in these situations. Superclamps rule.

BayTaynt3d · « **Reply #23 on:** January 09, 2007, 11:40:51 PM »

Quote from: gratefulphish on January 09, 2007, 11:19:22 PM

Quote from: Brian Skalinder on January 08, 2007, 07:51:27 PM

Per a suggestion from mmmatt a while back, I carry around 4 XLR barrels to do just that: 4 x XLR-f | XLR-f barrels + 4 x XLR-m | XLR-m barrels. Let's me turnaround the snake lines running from board > stage so they then run stage > board.

Did you mean 4 x XLR-M>XLR-F barrels, and vice versa? Otherwise, they just sound like barrel connectors.

You need 1 F-to-F XLR (cause that turns a M into a F) and 1 M-to-M XLR (cause that turns a F into a M) adapter to run one channel backwards through the returns.

gratefulphish · « **Reply #24 on:** January 10, 2007, 01:50:08 PM »

Quote from: BayTaynt3d on January 09, 2007, 11:40:51 PM

You need 1 F-to-F XLR (cause that turns a M into a F) and 1 M-to-M XLR (cause that turns a F into a M) adapter to run one channel backwards through the returns.

Oh, I see now. DOH! Note to add to pack. Any preferred brand for the connectors?