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Author Topic: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3  (Read 74712 times)

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Offline fireonshakedwnstreet

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #315 on: July 06, 2022, 12:09:29 PM »
OMT7
https://archive.org/details/billystrings2022-06-29.omt7audmtx.perez.t-flac16
Source: OMT7 AUD MTX (24/44.1)
Channels 1|2: Studio Projects C4 (hyper), split 2' @ 45º -> Naiant MidBox -> Tascam DR-680MKII
Channel  3:   TEAC PE-120 w/ JVC M510 Superdirectional cap @ 0º -> Sound Devices MixPre -> Tascam DR-680MKII
Channel  4|5: Audio Technica 853Rx (omni) A-B split 4'-> Edirol UA-5 (Oade Warm Mod)  -> Tascam DR-680MKII 
Channels 6|7: Audio Technica 3031, X-Y PAS -> Edirol UA-5 (Oade Presence Mod) -> Tascam DR-680MKII
Mics: AT 3031; AT 853Rx (c, o); Samson C02; Studio Projects C4 (c, o, h); Nak 300/Tascam PE-125/JVC M510 (cp-1, cp-2, cp-3, JVC M510 superdirectional caps)
Recorders: Tascam DR-680 MkII; Tascam DR-70D
Pres: Edirol UA-5 (Oade PMod & WMod); Marantz PMD661 (OCM); Marantz PMD620 (Oade WMod); Naiant MidBox; Shure FP11 (x2)
https://archive.org/details/@fireonshakedwnstreet

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #316 on: July 06, 2022, 02:56:25 PM »
Woo!  Thanks D. Looking forward to giving this one a listen.

Couple questions:
  • Appears the TEAC PE-120 w/ JVC M510 Superdirectional is a shotgun, is that correct?
  • What was the PAS X/Y angle on the AT 3031 pair?

Also quite curious to hear your thoughts about the following, but don't feel compelled to to answer in depth unless you like. I'm especially interested in your thoughts on these things as one of the few others running OMNT6+ setups which include the wider-than-typical near-spaced pair [Studio Projects C4 (hyper), split 2' @ 45º] in addition to the coincident center pair:
  • The combination of both the center 0º shotgun + PAS X/Y pair in the mix?  Much difference with and without the shotgun?  Mostly a clarity thing?  Any spatial difference?
  • The the combination of the 2' near-spaced pair + center shotgun in the mix, with the X/Y pair muted? <This representing an L/C/R center triplet configuration, similar to my arrangement using a mid/side center pair if/when the Side channel is muted.
  • Everything hard panned? Any X/Y manipulation in the mix?
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline fireonshakedwnstreet

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #317 on: July 06, 2022, 06:02:09 PM »
Answers in red, GB!

Woo!  Thanks D. Looking forward to giving this one a listen.

Couple questions:
  • Appears the TEAC PE-120 w/ JVC M510 Superdirectional is a shotgun, is that correct?
    Correct. It's a short shotgun. Actually pretty solid sounding with a transparent pre.
  • What was the PAS X/Y angle on the AT 3031 pair?
Oh boy. I'm not good at that stuff lol. Definitely narrow. The stacks were maybe 150 ft away or so. Definitely less than 90 degrees, maybe 50-60, but I'm not 100% positive.

Also quite curious to hear your thoughts about the following, but don't feel compelled to to answer in depth unless you like. I'm especially interested in your thoughts on these things as one of the few others running OMNT6+ setups which include the wider-than-typical near-spaced pair [Studio Projects C4 (hyper), split 2' @ 45º] in addition to the coincident center pair:
  • The combination of both the center 0º shotgun + PAS X/Y pair in the mix?  Much difference with and without the shotgun?  Mostly a clarity thing?  Any spatial difference?
    I think there is a difference in clarity. The chatter rejection of the shotgun, even with all the well-discussed caveats, just can't be beat, imo. The talkers from the side just completely disappear. All the focus is on the music. I EQ the shotgun separately, cutting the sub-bass and the ugly low mids buildup. I may also add maybe 10% stereo width if it sounds too tubey. Not necessarily looking for musicality from that mic, but just as much direct signal as I can, and max noise rejection. I also want to beef up the direct signal in that center spot, as the cards do pick up quite a bit from the sides.  The 3031s, good as they are for budget mics, aren't going to hold their pattern all the way through, so I wanted something really directional to solidify that center and get as much direct signal as possible. The shotgun isn't going to hold all the way through either, but at least it's not going all the way to omni at the lower frequencies (though it may do other ugly things). Ideally I should be running a super or hyper in that X-Y configuration, but I would rather run those narrower patterns as the near spaced pair directly at the stacks. They just soak up direct signal in that configuration. I think the cards would pick up way too much from the sides spread out wide like that. Now, if Santa gets me CK63s, MK41s or MG210s, then I will definitely put a hyper as the X-Y ;D! I don’t really manipulate the spacing of the shotgun for balance, etc. I really try to balance the channels with the recording and if needed, in post.
  • The the combination of the 2' near-spaced pair + center shotgun in the mix, with the X/Y pair muted? <This representing an L/C/R center triplet configuration, similar to my arrangement using a mid/side center pair if/when the Side channel is muted.
Truth be told, I don’t mute anything GB, lol. Unless the channel is completely shot to hell and unsalvageable, I’m gonna use it, so I don’t even experiment. The main reason to use them all is to get the flavor of the pres that I have in the chain. For example, I have the Oade PMod for the X-Y AT3031s, so that’s going to give me a little bit more presence. I definitely want that. Overall, I am all for combining as many directional pairs as possible, especially from a long distance OTS situation. I do hear some forward gain with these type of setups. Anything to bring the diffuse field "closer," I'm all for. If it gets a little shrill, just beat down those frequencies with some multiband.
  • Everything hard panned? Any X/Y manipulation in the mix?
Everything hard panned L/R, except for the shotgun, which was panned center. No X/Y manipulation. If I need a little width, I will use a plug-in.
Mics: AT 3031; AT 853Rx (c, o); Samson C02; Studio Projects C4 (c, o, h); Nak 300/Tascam PE-125/JVC M510 (cp-1, cp-2, cp-3, JVC M510 superdirectional caps)
Recorders: Tascam DR-680 MkII; Tascam DR-70D
Pres: Edirol UA-5 (Oade PMod & WMod); Marantz PMD661 (OCM); Marantz PMD620 (Oade WMod); Naiant MidBox; Shure FP11 (x2)
https://archive.org/details/@fireonshakedwnstreet

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #318 on: July 07, 2022, 01:21:16 PM »
Thanks for the comments above. 

I got in a brief listen last night, hoping to return to it again with more time tonight.  I noticed low-frequency overload distortion happening somewhere.  Could be the omnis, maybe the PA, maybe something else.

Your comments on the usefulness of the shotgun are right in line with my thinking regarding the intent of including it.  The goal is producing a recording you are happy with, so no worries about not spending hours playing around with various channel combinations afterwards.  I tend to do do a lot of that kind of listening, partly as an empirical check on what I think I know about how these arrangements perform, and partly as reconfirmation of the hierarchical order of importance of each addition in the progressively increasing channel count.

Some thoughts that come to mind about interesting possible combinations with this arrangement - not suggesting you try listening this way, just fun for me to think about and float ideas out to whomever may be following the thread:
● The most obvious comparison is X/Y center + omnis, with and without the shotgun added.
● A comparison I always find interesting is between X/Y stereo center (+ omnis) verses L/C/R stereo center (+ omnis), in this case the L/C/R triplet consisting of the AT 3031 near-spaced pair + center shotgun.

Here's some interesting ones this particular combination makes possible-
● Flip polarity on the right X/Y channel and sum left and right X/Y channels to derive their difference.  Use that as Side channel along with the shotgun as Mid.  This is using the X/Y pair as substitute for a fig-8 mic, producing a Mid/Side center pair with the shotgun.
● Comparison of that Mid/Side center + omnis with the straight X/Y center + omnis.
● A comparison of L/C/R + omnis, with the same plus the introduction of some Side channel to taste (more or less an alternate "all channels up" configuration).  This tends to be the way in which I find the most appropriate Side channel level when I have both a Mid/Side coincident center and near-spaced pair.  Essentially realizing the same could be applied to X/Y + near-spaced pair as well.. an alternate way of tweaking Mid/Side ratio to best effect.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2022, 07:12:50 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline fireonshakedwnstreet

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #319 on: July 07, 2022, 01:58:47 PM »
Thanks for the always useful ideas, GB. Yes, a preamp clipped on some of the big bass bombs with the omnis, particularly on the first few songs. I think I turned down the gain at some point. These guys are very dynamic so have to run a little lower.
Mics: AT 3031; AT 853Rx (c, o); Samson C02; Studio Projects C4 (c, o, h); Nak 300/Tascam PE-125/JVC M510 (cp-1, cp-2, cp-3, JVC M510 superdirectional caps)
Recorders: Tascam DR-680 MkII; Tascam DR-70D
Pres: Edirol UA-5 (Oade PMod & WMod); Marantz PMD661 (OCM); Marantz PMD620 (Oade WMod); Naiant MidBox; Shure FP11 (x2)
https://archive.org/details/@fireonshakedwnstreet

Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #320 on: July 07, 2022, 03:29:40 PM »
Thanks for the always useful ideas, GB. Yes, a preamp clipped on some of the big bass bombs with the omnis, particularly on the first few songs. I think I turned down the gain at some point. These guys are very dynamic so have to run a little lower.
Just to add re FRI 07-01-2022 sound quality. the room was a bit boomy, especially first set, and our array picked up more than few Phil bombs which were close to clipping.
music IS love

When you get confused, listen to the music play!

Mics:         AKG460|CK61|CK1|CK3|CK8|Beyer M 201E|DPA 4060 SK
Recorders:Marantz PMD661 OADE Concert mod; Tascam DR680 MKI x2; Sony PCM-M10

Offline fireonshakedwnstreet

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #321 on: July 07, 2022, 04:45:08 PM »
Yeah I def hear it, GB. I'm gonna play with the bottom end a bit and see if I can clear that up.

No kidding, rock! Still working on that one. Place was a barn.
Mics: AT 3031; AT 853Rx (c, o); Samson C02; Studio Projects C4 (c, o, h); Nak 300/Tascam PE-125/JVC M510 (cp-1, cp-2, cp-3, JVC M510 superdirectional caps)
Recorders: Tascam DR-680 MkII; Tascam DR-70D
Pres: Edirol UA-5 (Oade PMod & WMod); Marantz PMD661 (OCM); Marantz PMD620 (Oade WMod); Naiant MidBox; Shure FP11 (x2)
https://archive.org/details/@fireonshakedwnstreet

Offline fireonshakedwnstreet

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #322 on: July 08, 2022, 12:50:34 PM »
OMT6 (Tough Room Variant)
https://archive.org/details/paf2022-07-01.omt6audmtx.perez.t-flac16/
Source: OMT6 AUD MTX (24/44.1)
Channels 1|2: Studio Projects C4 (hyper), split 2' @ 45º -> Edirol UA-5 (Oade Warm Mod) -> Tascam DR-680MKII
Channel  3|4: TEAC PE-120 w/ JVC M510 Superdirectional cap 6" spread, PAS -> Sound Devices MixPre -> Tascam DR-680MKII
Channel  5|6: Audio Technica 3031, X-Y PAS -> Edirol UA-5 (Oade Presence Mod) -> Tascam DR-680MKII

Definitely a very wet room!
Mics: AT 3031; AT 853Rx (c, o); Samson C02; Studio Projects C4 (c, o, h); Nak 300/Tascam PE-125/JVC M510 (cp-1, cp-2, cp-3, JVC M510 superdirectional caps)
Recorders: Tascam DR-680 MkII; Tascam DR-70D
Pres: Edirol UA-5 (Oade PMod & WMod); Marantz PMD661 (OCM); Marantz PMD620 (Oade WMod); Naiant MidBox; Shure FP11 (x2)
https://archive.org/details/@fireonshakedwnstreet

Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #323 on: July 08, 2022, 03:19:01 PM »
OMT6 (Tough Room Variant)
https://archive.org/details/paf2022-07-01.omt6audmtx.perez.t-flac16/
Source: OMT6 AUD MTX (24/44.1)
Channels 1|2: Studio Projects C4 (hyper), split 2' @ 45º -> Edirol UA-5 (Oade Warm Mod) -> Tascam DR-680MKII
Channel  3|4: TEAC PE-120 w/ JVC M510 Superdirectional cap 6" spread, PAS -> Sound Devices MixPre -> Tascam DR-680MKII
Channel  5|6: Audio Technica 3031, X-Y PAS -> Edirol UA-5 (Oade Presence Mod) -> Tascam DR-680MKII

Definitely a very wet room!
Dig it! good work with what they gave us.!  +T
music IS love

When you get confused, listen to the music play!

Mics:         AKG460|CK61|CK1|CK3|CK8|Beyer M 201E|DPA 4060 SK
Recorders:Marantz PMD661 OADE Concert mod; Tascam DR680 MKI x2; Sony PCM-M10

Offline fireonshakedwnstreet

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #324 on: July 08, 2022, 05:11:59 PM »
OMT6 (Tough Room Variant)
https://archive.org/details/paf2022-07-01.omt6audmtx.perez.t-flac16/
Source: OMT6 AUD MTX (24/44.1)
Channels 1|2: Studio Projects C4 (hyper), split 2' @ 45º -> Edirol UA-5 (Oade Warm Mod) -> Tascam DR-680MKII
Channel  3|4: TEAC PE-120 w/ JVC M510 Superdirectional cap 6" spread, PAS -> Sound Devices MixPre -> Tascam DR-680MKII
Channel  5|6: Audio Technica 3031, X-Y PAS -> Edirol UA-5 (Oade Presence Mod) -> Tascam DR-680MKII

Definitely a very wet room!
Dig it! good work with what they gave us.!  +T

Thanks brother. Definitely tough in there. Solid batch of tapes from this show considering.
Mics: AT 3031; AT 853Rx (c, o); Samson C02; Studio Projects C4 (c, o, h); Nak 300/Tascam PE-125/JVC M510 (cp-1, cp-2, cp-3, JVC M510 superdirectional caps)
Recorders: Tascam DR-680 MkII; Tascam DR-70D
Pres: Edirol UA-5 (Oade PMod & WMod); Marantz PMD661 (OCM); Marantz PMD620 (Oade WMod); Naiant MidBox; Shure FP11 (x2)
https://archive.org/details/@fireonshakedwnstreet

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #325 on: July 11, 2022, 09:12:43 AM »
^Enjoyed it! Quite a band.

The reverb is handled rather well I think. Tuning things for my headphones with the Archive Winamp player EQ it is interesting to find most of the 'verbiness in the 600hz-ish range. Also interesting to hear the crack of the snare positioned center, and bloom widely out to the sidewalls.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline fireonshakedwnstreet

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #326 on: July 11, 2022, 12:25:03 PM »
Thanks y'all. I cut everything below 40hz by 15db, gave Phil maybe 1-2 db push at 60-100hz, cut 5db or so at 250hz. A lot of the reverb was definitely in the vocal range 600-1500 or so. I used a multiband compressor (TDR Nova FREE) at 2:1 to try to beat the shoutiness out of the vocals. Lastly my usual 3 or so db boost from 2500 up to get a little more presence.
Mics: AT 3031; AT 853Rx (c, o); Samson C02; Studio Projects C4 (c, o, h); Nak 300/Tascam PE-125/JVC M510 (cp-1, cp-2, cp-3, JVC M510 superdirectional caps)
Recorders: Tascam DR-680 MkII; Tascam DR-70D
Pres: Edirol UA-5 (Oade PMod & WMod); Marantz PMD661 (OCM); Marantz PMD620 (Oade WMod); Naiant MidBox; Shure FP11 (x2)
https://archive.org/details/@fireonshakedwnstreet

Offline fireonshakedwnstreet

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #327 on: July 11, 2022, 03:02:49 PM »
After more than a year of trying finally ran the OMT8 setup at Dead and Co last night. The catch (I am cursed taping this band) is that I was given a huge hard time getting in the gear so missed the first three songs. First set is only six channels (no omnis). Second set includes the omnis. Will make for a nice comparison in any case. Incoming... ;D
Mics: AT 3031; AT 853Rx (c, o); Samson C02; Studio Projects C4 (c, o, h); Nak 300/Tascam PE-125/JVC M510 (cp-1, cp-2, cp-3, JVC M510 superdirectional caps)
Recorders: Tascam DR-680 MkII; Tascam DR-70D
Pres: Edirol UA-5 (Oade PMod & WMod); Marantz PMD661 (OCM); Marantz PMD620 (Oade WMod); Naiant MidBox; Shure FP11 (x2)
https://archive.org/details/@fireonshakedwnstreet

Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #328 on: July 29, 2022, 03:05:56 PM »
I finally got to run a large OMT set up again at Phish Bethel Woods last weekend.
For night one, we ran a pair of AKG ck61ULS PAS, a pair of DPA 4060 omnis spread about 4 feet and kindms AKG c426 XY cardioid.
https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=200245.0

https://we.tl/t-rznoDbV8GQ                                                              Phish 2022-07-22  AKGck61 ULS + DPA 4060 omni    expires 8-05
https://bt.etree.org/details.php?torrentId=616331                         Phish 2022-07-22  AKGck61 ULS + DPA 4060 omni     

For night two, I came away with a 4 channel OMT set 1 and a 6 channel set 2: set 1 we ran a pair of AKG ck63 PAS, a pair of DPA 4060 omnis spread about 8 feet; set 2 AKGck63 + DPA Omni + AKG c426 XY caridoid
https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=200246.0

https://we.tl/t-R7lE4AA99n         Phish 2022-07-23 AKGck63 + DPA Omni + (AKG c426 set2only ) flac    expires 8-06
https://bt.etree.org/details.php?torrentId=616332


Here is a photo of night 1 I also posted in rig pics. No night two rig photos. Any of you OMT appreciators check it out and let me know what you think?
music IS love

When you get confused, listen to the music play!

Mics:         AKG460|CK61|CK1|CK3|CK8|Beyer M 201E|DPA 4060 SK
Recorders:Marantz PMD661 OADE Concert mod; Tascam DR680 MKI x2; Sony PCM-M10

Offline fireonshakedwnstreet

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #329 on: July 29, 2022, 05:08:57 PM »
 :cheers: grabbing em now!
Mics: AT 3031; AT 853Rx (c, o); Samson C02; Studio Projects C4 (c, o, h); Nak 300/Tascam PE-125/JVC M510 (cp-1, cp-2, cp-3, JVC M510 superdirectional caps)
Recorders: Tascam DR-680 MkII; Tascam DR-70D
Pres: Edirol UA-5 (Oade PMod & WMod); Marantz PMD661 (OCM); Marantz PMD620 (Oade WMod); Naiant MidBox; Shure FP11 (x2)
https://archive.org/details/@fireonshakedwnstreet

 

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