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Author Topic: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3  (Read 74716 times)

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Offline grawk

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #360 on: January 05, 2024, 07:55:53 AM »

al w.
Once you put the subcard caps on the Pelusos you will never take them off. They are the best caps they make - perfect balance of warmth and clarity.

I can't think of a microphone where that's not true :)  If it weren't for concrete hockey barns, I wouldn't have hypers.
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Offline al w.

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #361 on: January 05, 2024, 08:10:50 AM »

al w.
Once you put the subcard caps on the Pelusos you will never take them off. They are the best caps they make - perfect balance of warmth and clarity.

Haha, I got them after reading your posts about them! :cheers: Can't wait to try em - I decided to run those tonight instead of the omnis.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #362 on: January 05, 2024, 11:39:34 AM »
Subcardioid is probably my favorite single pattern.  A really nice balance of omni-ness and directionality.  Sort of a more directional omni. I think some of that comes from a subcardioid pattern having no extreme nulls, but rather a smoothly changing sensitivity pattern all the way around, which causes it to sound very natural off axis much like an omni.  It doesn't mess up the reverberant diffuse pickup.  Smooth off-axis, just enough directional bias, and retains good low frequency sensitivity.  That's a good combination for taper-style concert recording.

Most of the OMT arrangements end up emulating something like a forward facing subcardioid pattern when considering the collective sum of all mic channels.  That's not accidental.  I very much intend a parallel there.  The difference is that OMT mic arrangements split up that collective subcardioid-ish sensitivity pattern into segments, into specific roles, which allows us to manipulate the summing of them into to a 2-channel stereo feed.. or into whatever alternate format we want.

Subcardioid mics can most certainly play a role in that (more on that below), yet at the same time I think it follows the same general trend of APE spheres in being most useful in minimal microphone setups in comparison to higher channel count OMT arrangements.  As the OMT channel count rises, the directional mics which are serving to split up the collective subcardioid pattern into segments need to become increasingly directional so as to hand-off to one another without too much overlap.  The full pie is being divided into smaller slices. In other words, in OMT arrangements where there is both a center pair and a near-spaced pair (and perhaps a rear-facing mic or pair), it helps to use more directional patterns in those positions.  That's why I use supercardioids there, and its a secondary reason why I've recently started using a stereo shotgun in place of the center Mid/Side pair (more on that in a following post).  The tighter patterns allow for less angle / spacing than would be needed if using more open patterns.

For a 2-mic pair I really love a pair of subcards.  But in the 5-segment directional array at the center of my OMT8 arrangement, I need supercard or tighter patterns.. which I sum to something collectively subcardioid-like.

Where I think subcards may be especially useful in OMT is substituting for the omnis.  My original use of the APE spheres on the omnis was an way of trying to achieve a more subcardioid-like pattern.  The big difference is a subcardioid has a far more consistent directional pattern across the full frequency spectrum, where an APE sphere only imparts that slight directionality at high frequencies.

Subcards in place of the omnis should be useful in a few situations.  One is when the omnis cannot be spaced far enough apart.  Substituting subcardioids pointing directly to either side (+/-90 deg) minimizes excessive overlap with the patterns of the other channels.  The very wide, smooth-off axis subcardioid pattern allows us to do that.  I've suggested using APE spheres on the omnis in the same way to help with this, but subcards should be even more effective.

Another is when recording from farther back than otherwise ideal in an overly reverberant room where omnis are too much. In that case angling subcardioids forward in their place can help without compromising too much on what the omnis are intended to provide.  The same fundamental thing as before with regard to higher channel count OMT setups applies though - I find that when using my OMT8 arrangement from farther back in more reverberant rooms where omnis on their own would not be usable at all, the omnis remain useful even though less of them are used in the mix, and more so than in lower channel count OMT arrangements.

Other than those cases, the trend I find in higher channel count OMT setups is a shift away from cardioid patterns which lie in the middle of the continuum between least directional (omni) and most directional (supercardioid or shotgun).  Instead, the entire array collectively produces a sensitivity pattern that is cardioid to subcardioid like by combining those very directional and very non-directional patterns to produce an end result which is somewhat analogous to a single subcardioid pair.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2024, 02:45:29 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #363 on: January 05, 2024, 12:31:37 PM »
^ Before I started including rear-facing mic channels I was strongly considering using sub-cardioids out in the omni positions facing backwards.  I even asked around here and elsewhere for suggestions of specific subcardioids that sound especially natural 180 degrees off axis - because that's where the dominant stage/PA sound would be picked up by them. I didn't end up doing that because I couldn't find any miniature ones I could use out at the end of the telescopic TV antennas like I do the tiny DPA omnis.  AT853 subcards would have been a suitable option to try, but I don't have them and couldn't find any.

My intent at the time was to use the wide-spaced omni channels to feed surround playback channels in addition to providing good low frequency stereo pickup.  From experimentation with surround playback I found it required about -6dB less level than would otherwise be optimal in those channels to keep the front image from getting pulled too far around the sides toward the surround speakers.  Since 6dB corresponds with the difference between the front and back sensitivity of a subcardioid, I realized that substituting rear-facing subcards for the omnis could help achieve that.

Instead I put APE spheres on the omnis, played with pointing them backward, and started using an additional rear-facing cardioid.  That single rear facing cardioid later grew into a pair of rear-facing supercardioids, providing enough rejection of sound arriving from the front to allow for fine level adjustment of the rear content.

I now see all of this through a much broader prism.  Rather than thinking specifically in terms of what's needed to achieve good surround playback, I think of this in terms of achieving a subcardioid-like sensitivity for the collective array, regardless of the later playback modality being 2-ch stereo, surround, or whatever.


Thanks for lending an ear (eye?) in my often over-worded thinking through of all this over the course of 15 years or so and 3 long OMT threads..
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline goodcooker

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #364 on: January 05, 2024, 09:23:19 PM »

When I first started taping I tried several multi mic arrangements in an effort to get a certain sound - the focus of directional mics combined with the open low end subwoofer content of omnis. The place I arrived at was running one stereo pair of subcards. They have both elements I seek.

Every once in a while I still run a center hyper to give some more forward focus if I'm far away from the source but don't always mix it in.
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Offline al w.

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #365 on: January 08, 2024, 10:31:45 AM »
Following up after this weekend's Eggy shows. When I arrived on Friday, I was pleasantly surprised to find that the venue had set up a full stage on one end of the taproom, which was a change from last year.

On Friday, I ran:
  • hypers XY - PAS, 60°, ~9" in front
  • cards 'improved PAS' - 60°, 18" apart
  • subcards - 180°, 34" apart

On Saturday, just to try something different, instead of running the hypers XY, I ran one pointing forward and one backward (~9" each way). I kept the other mics the same. Both nights I ran my stand right at PA level; I was tempted to go higher, but I'm glad I kept it lower because I think the recordings benefited from the head-on sound.

I am so pleased with the results! I feel the setup achieved exactly what was intended: you get that great "in the room" feel from the subcards combined with the clarity of the hypers. The near-spaced PAS cards (not part of the OMT PDFs, technically - I was originally not going to mix these in - but with a high-pass they added a little more clarity) mixed in lightly nicely fill in the small gap between the other two pairs. With such a large room, I was worried about too much echo, but I think the space let a lot of sound dissipate, providing more clarity.

On the whole, I preferred the second setup; it felt easier to mix. I misaligned the XY hypers slightly on Friday and now immediately see the appeal of running MS there. I'm going to have to try that out. The spaced subcards really do dissipate the effect of the crowd noise! It's there, but it's not overly distracting, which is just fantastic. I can't wait to try this setup (or similar) in other venues.

I've attached some pics that show the venue layout and the setups. On Friday I was joined by lynchie and taperchris whose mics are on the stand, too.

And, of course, here are the tapes!

https://archive.org/details/eggy2024-01-05.alw-matrix (suggested listening: Today and Tomorrow, Finding and Losing)
https://archive.org/details/eggy2024-01-06.alw-matrix (suggested listening: Last of Kin, Boom or Bust)

Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #366 on: January 08, 2024, 01:30:58 PM »
right on al w.!!!
+T
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Offline fireonshakedwnstreet

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #367 on: January 08, 2024, 04:18:47 PM »
Looking good!!
Mics: AT 3031; AT 853Rx (c, o); Samson C02; Studio Projects C4 (c, o, h); Nak 300/Tascam PE-125/JVC M510 (cp-1, cp-2, cp-3, JVC M510 superdirectional caps)
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #368 on: January 08, 2024, 06:56:06 PM »
:coolguy: Happy to hear it worked well, and to your satisfaction!  Thanks for the report, photos, and links.  I'll try and give the recordings a listen tonight.

Curious about your thoughts on the rear-facing center center mic used the second night.  Did you use any of that in the mix?

A couple of your comments struck me-

To my ear, the addition of a near-spaced directional pair to the baseline OMT4 arrangement of omnis (or subcards) + center coincident pair does exactly as you say - it improves clarity.. and sort of provides a sense of greater proximity to the source.  Almost a zoom-like effect, though more so in terms of clarity and perceptual closeness rather than in terms of imaging geometry.  When adding that pair to a single forward facing mic in the center (say, going from OMT3 to OMT5), the resulting near-spaced triplet predominantly provides the sharp directional stereo information.  My frequent suggestion to space that L/R pair twice as wide as one would ordinarily space a typical near-spaced stereo pair when used on its own is rooted in achieving the best integration of that stereo triplet - such that if the center mic is muted there will be a hint of hole in the middle, thereby providing room for the center mic content inhabit, but with the center mic unmuted the image hands off nicely from the left across the center to the right in a very smooth, stable and position accurate way.  Such a 3-mic triplet is even more solid and stable and sharp imaging than a coincident center pair.  I hear the most accurate image from an L/C/R pair in the center that is optimized like that.

Unfortunately, stretching that 2-ch near-spaced pair config to work best in combination with the center mic is somewhat inconvenient because the near-spaced pair needs to be either angled more widely (not desirable because it points them farther away from the PA) or spaced more widely, or a bit of both, making it less optimized for use as a stereo pair on its own.  Also, angles narrower than +/-45° in the effort to get close to PAS require that pair to be very widely spaced, and its nice to keep the near-spaced pair from getting too close to the omnis.  The use of pickup patterns that are highly-directional helps somewhat in allowing us to position and angle that pair somewhat less widely than we'd otherwise need to, and is what lead to my current arrangement of L/R supercards about 2' apart angled +/-45°, which is about as narrow as I feel I can make it while retaining good sharp imaging.


Another thing-
When adding the near-spaced L/R directional pair to a center coincident stereo pair (X/Y or M/S) rather than a single mic in the center (going to OMT6), there are now two pairs potentially contributing sharp directional stereo imaging cues across the center.  Without making the near-spaced pair wider angled or spaced, they may be in conflict somewhat, which could be why you found night one more difficult to mix than night two. If you want to play around a bit with it, you might try summing the center X/Y hypercardioid pair to mono (which will produce something akin to a single forward facing cardioid) and see if that makes it easier to mix. 

Its always very interesting to me to go back and forth between listening to omnis + center coincident pair, and omnis + center triplet.  Both are good, but different.  I do this pretty much every time.   Most of the time I end up using both in the mix.  I first establish a good balance within the triplet, getting that balanced with the omnis and whatever other channels, then use the Side channel of the M/S pair more as the "special sauce", rather than the primary source of forward directional imaging.  The imaging is actually sharper without any Side channel, but it adds such a lovely sense of width, sparkling lushness and depth that its hard to leave it out.  Sometimes I ride or automate its level - less when it gets really loud, energetic and dense (sharpening things up), more in the atmospheric parts and during good audience interaction segments when it really shines.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2024, 07:03:26 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #369 on: January 08, 2024, 07:16:01 PM »
I encourage any of you who have recorded with OMT6 or higher setups using a near-coincident pair and center X/Y pair to try converting the X/Y pair to M/S, then mixing it like I mention above.  Let me know how that works for you, and how it compares to using the X/Y center pair straight as is. I have far less experience using an X/Y pair in the center, yet most others are using X/Y in that position rather than M/S (presumably because M/S requires a fig-8).  I'm very curious about how best to approach using an X/Y pair in the mix and from my use of M/S I suspect it may be this approach.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #370 on: January 09, 2024, 10:13:02 AM »
I very much enjoyed the listen to your suggested tracks last night, Al. Well done!

I did EQ it a bit to work best for me, some of which is accommodating my non-calibrated headphones (Senn HD650), another project I keep kicking down the road along with getting a proper loudspeaker monitoring system back in action.  Mostly that was a scoop in the upper-bass/low-mid region centered around 300Hz, compensated for with a boost down low, which perceptually translated more or less as an upper midrange enhancement, but I don't expect that to necessarily translate elsewhere. More important to my way of thinking is that it responded well to EQ without problems, which indicates to me that everything is working together correctly and it remains robust in the face of any adjustment the listener feels is needed, which is the primary basis I use to judge recordings.. and microphones.  After tweaking the EQ a bit and shifting mindset, I felt like I was there, transported to the venue. That's very much what I look for from an OMT recording - big, open and natural with a good sense of the of the room dimensions and portrayal of the audience.  Only thing I found myself wanting was a bit more level and presence of the vocals, which is something I've been recently concentrating on improving further in my setup, and plan to post about in a bit.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline fireonshakedwnstreet

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #371 on: January 09, 2024, 11:15:34 AM »
I very much enjoyed the listen to your suggested tracks last night, Al. Well done!

I did EQ it a bit to work best for me, some of which is accommodating my non-calibrated headphones (Senn HD650), another project I keep kicking down the road along with getting a proper loudspeaker monitoring system back in action.  Mostly that was a scoop in the upper-bass/low-mid region centered around 300Hz, compensated for with a boost down low, which perceptually translated more or less as an upper midrange enhancement, but I don't expect that to necessarily translate elsewhere. More important to my way of thinking is that it responded well to EQ without problems, which indicates to me that everything is working together correctly and it remains robust in the face of any adjustment the listener feels is needed, which is the primary basis I use to judge recordings.. and microphones.  After tweaking the EQ a bit and shifting mindset, I felt like I was there, transported to the venue. That's very much what I look for from an OMT recording - big, open and natural with a good sense of the of the room dimensions and portrayal of the audience.  Only thing I found myself wanting was a bit more level and presence of the vocals, which is something I've been recently concentrating on improving further in my setup, and plan to post about in a bit.

Gut, I've been calibrating my headphones using the Harman Curve, based on a Produce Like a Pro podcast with a mix engineer: https://open.spotify.com/episode/5NJPhH4DGZncXfrhlG3DI5. There is a guy who has measured a ton of headphones using a rig and put out eq settings based on the Harman Curve: https://www.reddit.com/r/oratory1990/wiki/index/list_of_presets/. When I set this up, it was a huge eye-opener with my AKG K240s, which SEVERLY roll off everything below 60Hz, boosts the low-mids, and had a whole bunch of other issues. I tried SonarWorks, but I didn't like it; too bright. This is the correction curve for the AKG K240s: https://www.dropbox.com/s/72kdi38apmfyrio/AKG%20K240%20Studio.pdf?dl=0&save_as=true&save_as_action=PNG. You can see, they are quite a mess before correction.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2024, 11:21:02 AM by fireonshakedwnstreet »
Mics: AT 3031; AT 853Rx (c, o); Samson C02; Studio Projects C4 (c, o, h); Nak 300/Tascam PE-125/JVC M510 (cp-1, cp-2, cp-3, JVC M510 superdirectional caps)
Recorders: Tascam DR-680 MkII; Tascam DR-70D
Pres: Edirol UA-5 (Oade PMod & WMod); Marantz PMD661 (OCM); Marantz PMD620 (Oade WMod); Naiant MidBox; Shure FP11 (x2)
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #372 on: January 09, 2024, 02:39:24 PM »
^Thanks for that.  I may check it out as a stopgap measure, as its sure to get significantly closer to neutral. ..and may be sufficient.

However, I'm convinced from past experience that to really calibrate headphones sufficiently, I'll need to do a calibration with them coupled with my own ears.

I've been meaning to try David Griesinger's method of EQing to match the response of a speaker placed directly in front of the listener, which takes one's personal HRTF into account as well as correcting the response of the headphone. He sent me his software used for doing this but have yet to delve into it.

And I'm still waiting for fulfillment of the Smyth Realizer I supported through KickStarter, an earlier version of which I was calibrated for and demo'd years ago. That's more of a complete personal emulation of a specific monitoring environment over headphones. It was astoundingly convincing that I was not actually wearing headphones at all but hearing the speakers in the room in which the calibration was done, with head rotation and all.  Really amazing.  That one requires binaural impulse response measurements of each speaker while facing three directions, and a second set of binarual impulse responses wearing the headphones to be corrected.  Need to follow up on that, as its sort of my holy grail for this kind of thing.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline grawk

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #373 on: January 09, 2024, 03:42:11 PM »
And I'm still waiting for fulfillment of the Smyth Realizer I supported through KickStarter, an earlier version of which I was calibrated for and demo'd years ago. That's more of a complete personal emulation of a specific monitoring environment over headphones. It was astoundingly convincing that I was not actually wearing headphones at all but hearing the speakers in the room in which the calibration was done, with head rotation and all.  Really amazing.  That one requires binaural impulse response measurements of each speaker while facing three directions, and a second set of binarual impulse responses wearing the headphones to be corrected.  Need to follow up on that, as its sort of my holy grail for this kind of thing.

I saw those being demoed a decade ago.  It's amazing they still aren't shipping
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Offline checht

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #374 on: January 09, 2024, 04:00:21 PM »
Do any of these systems allow for adjustment to accommodate hearing loss that isn't flat?

I've activated that for airpods, using audiology data, and appreciate the improvement.
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