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Author Topic: DPA Stereo Recording Comparisions - archived from old website  (Read 5713 times)

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Offline goodcooker

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Re: DPA Stereo Recording Comparisions - archived from old website
« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2023, 02:16:10 PM »
I got some strong push back here at TS

It's okay to be wrong sometimes.

When one member of the forum takes one path another member may take a different one. Your wording in that conversation was advising people against doing something that I do all the time with fantastic results. So I contradicted you. And I probably will again.

To create a cautionary tale against a very common practice based on theory is not in keeping with the hobbyist ethos of this site.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: DPA Stereo Recording Comparisions - archived from old website
« Reply #16 on: July 19, 2023, 06:47:53 PM »
It's always okay to be wrong as long as one is open to discussing it, understanding why, admitting so, and working toward making it right. 

I've no problem with contradictory approaches and opinions, and consider them an opportunity to reconsider and better explain my position, how and why I arrived at it.. with the potential for expanding my own understanding and learning something new in the process.  Likewise, I encourage folks here to do their own thing - do what you like and use whatever methods get you the results you want, as long as its not unsafe or threatening the freedoms of the rest of us.  If anything my own oddball approaches to recording are quite left field compared to the standard way of doing things.

At the same time, I always seek to base what I'm doing and how I evaluate things in basic fundamental principles that underlie everything we are doing.  Understanding that is key to me.  If I can connect the dots in this way, it all makes far more sense and potential solutions to a problem become apparent, including those which may be unusual but fit the core principles. As a consequence I and hopefully others following along will be more easily able to avoid pitfalls which might otherwise go unforeseen.  I find this approach, in combination with verifying or refuting things by actually trying them, makes for the surest path to success.

Also, I tend to write my posts here at TS in a way intended to address a general audience of tapers and whoever else may be reading, as much as I'm replying directly to any one person here.  I try to convey information this way because that's what I originally came here looking for long ago.

If you read my posts carefully, you'll notice I rarely say "just do it this way.." or "that won't work", without explanation of why. I instead try to explain why its more or less likely to work successfully, and anchor that in something of a framework. That takes a lot of effort and often a lot of explanation, frequently resulting lengthy posts.  That seems to annoy some folks, yet it is important to me to try and communicate these ideas clearly and with justification.


For example, I don't dispute that ORTF or whatever with a third mic in the middle has worked great for you.  But I will hot hesitate to talk about what the implications of that are, what is going on by doing so, where it might be problematic, and how it is likely to be improved.  If you go back and read what I wrote, I think I said it would be more optimal to increase the standard ORTF spacing when using a third mic in the center.  Not that it wouldn't work without doing so, only that it might have some potential for problems, could potentially be better, and then probably went on to discuss the details of why.

I'll go farther.. I can certainly see how a third mic in the middle may improve on ORTF in certain situations, yet I still hold that it could be further improved while reducing the potential for problems.  Taping scenarios tend to be strange situations in the recording world, which is why unusual approaches can work that otherwise would seem odd.  ORTF has a rather wide angle between microphones that tends to place the mics farther off-axis to the source than other near-spaced configurations when recording from a position that is not close to the stage.  A third mic in the center will likely help with that.  I think it could still be made better though, and will continue explaining how and why.  I look forward to those discussions and hope you do too. Feel free to contradict, but follow up and defend your position.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: DPA Stereo Recording Comparisions - archived from old website
« Reply #17 on: July 19, 2023, 06:54:18 PM »
To create a cautionary tale against a very common practice based on theory is not in keeping with the hobbyist ethos of this site.

I find the above statement confusing.  ORTF + a third center mics is in no way common practice nor based on theory.. other than the potential improvement of the third mic being more on-axis to the source. 

Do what you like and hobby on!
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline goodcooker

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Re: DPA Stereo Recording Comparisions - archived from old website
« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2023, 12:11:40 AM »
To create a cautionary tale against a very common practice based on theory is not in keeping with the hobbyist ethos of this site.

I find the above statement confusing.  ORTF + a third center mics is in no way common practice nor based on theory.. other than the potential improvement of the third mic being more on-axis to the source. 

Do what you like and hobby on!

You misinterpreted my statement.  Maybe it should have read "to use theory to support the creation of a cautionary tale against the use of a common practice (near spaced mics with a single center mic)"

As much as you like to "explain your position" and do so often, ad nauseum, in hopes to help others find the info that you originally came here looking for I try to do the same just in more understandable, relatable and practical ways. I came to this hobbyist taper site filled with people who record live music performances to learn from the people who were already doing what I wanted to do.

There is no way you could be blind to the idea that if a newcomer came to this site to find out about running a third center mic in the middle of their NOS pair that after you responded (as you inevitably do when anyone brings up any topic related to mic configs) with a long, often cautionary post using the words "problems" "implications" "consequences" then launching into how it could have "destructive interference effects" and more may likely be scared off by all the possible pitfalls.
.
I'm not going to try to tell you how to communicate but I will continue to sometimes say things like "don't listen to Gutbucket and his long ass ramble about correlation and phase" when I think your verbosity has gone too far. I'm not singling you out or attacking you but I will sometimes provide an alternate view and reassure others that obsessing over phase correlation and interaction of multiple mics is not necessary.
Line Audio CM3/OM1 || MBHO KA500 hyper>PFA|| ADK A51 type IV || AKG C522XY
Oade Warm Mod and Presence+ Mod UA5s || Aerco MP2(needs help) || Neve Portico 5012 || Apogee MMP
SD Mixpre6 || Oade Concert Mod DR100mkii

pocket sized - CA11 cards > SP SB10 > Sony PCM A10

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/goodcooker

"Are you the Zman?" - fan at Panic 10-08-10 Kansas City
"I don't know who left this perfectly good inflatable wook doll here, but if I'm blowing her up, I'm keeping her." -  hoppedup

Offline SMsound

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Re: DPA Stereo Recording Comparisions - archived from old website
« Reply #19 on: July 20, 2023, 10:00:06 AM »
This is what you're talking about. It's one of the best comparative recording websites I know of. Mostly done with DPA mics, some Schoeps also. The Experiment of Recording category is what you're looking for.

http://kazuyanagae.com/


And one more similar site that compares a ton of stereo arrays on piano with nice mics (mainly Schoeps MK2H, unlike the mainly DPA recordings in the previous link):
http://soundmedia.jp/nuaudktua/

(click the links under pianos/composers to load the comparisons -- the YT video on the main page is just an intro)

It's been posted on TS before, but for some reason I can never find any of these links when I'm looking...
« Last Edit: July 20, 2023, 10:02:22 AM by SMsound »
waves -> bits

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: DPA Stereo Recording Comparisions - archived from old website
« Reply #20 on: July 20, 2023, 02:03:01 PM »
Goodcooker, I guess that's where we differ. I have never advised people to not listen to you nor disregard what you post here.  I respect most of our members here more than that, particularly long time members with a history of strong contributions here such as yourself.  Yes, please do provide an alternative view, I sincerely welcome that engagement.. but allow folks to make up their own minds about the value of what each of us posts here.  They don't need hand holding, and there is no need to cast stones.

I've experienced phase interaction problems myself mixing together multiple microphone channels that were positioned too close to each other without sufficient angle between them.  The problem is not imaginary.  It doesn't occur at all if only using two microphone channels that won't be mixed together, so it doesn't effect most tapers running typical two channel recording rigs.  But it does become something to be aware of when mixing microphone channels together, increasingly so as more microphone channels are involved. I frequently hear it in attempts at doing so.  It's good and fortunate you've not encountered these problems yourself, yet that doesn't mean such problems don't exist and won't be a problem for others.

People tape because they enjoy doing so. Newcomers to TS generally keep it simple.  They don't typically start out recording using arrays of multiple microphones. Many tapers continue taping that way their entire taping career and that's totally fine, even admirable.  Someone who really knows what they are doing and makes really great recordings that way consistently gets a lot of respect from me.  It takes serious taper skill and ability.  I love it when a simple two channel recording is as good as what I can achieve with a complicated setup.  But informing folks who are interested enough to post here asking about more complex approaches about potential problems that didn't exist with simpler recording arrangements is important and part of what make TS unique and valuable.  Its not scaring new folks away who won't be recording using these more complex methods.

A standard near-spaced stereo microphone config that has a center microphone added to it is not a standard or very common practice.  Granted it is something one sometimes sees in the taper world.  I get why.  Its a practical combination that solves some problems that aren't as much of an issue outside of the strange endeavor of concert taping from the audience.  It uses the same mic mount one was using previously.  It makes a lot of sense in terms of practical setup.  But its no longer optimized in the same way that hte named near-spaced two channel microphone configurations were when originally developed.  Adding another microphone disrupts that optimization and to become fully optimized again requires altering things a bit.  Sure it can work without doing that.  Sure you might make better recordings than you were making previously without that addition.
 My point is that it can probably be made better still while also minimizing the potential problems.  Don't take my word for it. Try increasing the spacing of your standard near-spaced pair when you add a 3rd mic in the center.  You may like it.  You may not.  Share your experience here. Just don't publicly dismiss the suggestion that it can work better and reduce potential problems (which you thankfully aren't encountering) without actually trying it. [Edit- maybe you have tried that.  If so I'd like to hear about the details and your thoughts about it]
« Last Edit: July 20, 2023, 02:08:52 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline voltronic

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Re: DPA Stereo Recording Comparisions - archived from old website
« Reply #21 on: July 20, 2023, 06:03:17 PM »
Goodcooker, please take your confusing beef with Gutbucket elsewhere.
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