Become a Site Supporter and Never see Ads again!

Author Topic: 24 bit>>16 bit??  (Read 5836 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline smat

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 63
24 bit>>16 bit??
« on: April 01, 2006, 06:14:32 PM »
I have just discovered that the 24 bit files I recorded w my R-1 are useless unless I have a high end cd  player to playback with.  How do I convert them to 16 bit so I can burn to cd??
Also....Is there any advantage to recording in 24 bit if I'm only gonna convert to 16 bit anyway?? 

Offline Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B)

  • Trade Count: (11)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 9940
  • Gender: Male
  • I dream in beige.
    • sloppy.art.ink
Re: 24 bit>>16 bit??
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2006, 06:33:14 PM »
I use Wavelab to convert 24bit > 16bit.

I wouldn't think there would be any advantage to record 24bit. I could be wrong.

||| MICS:  Beyer CK930 | DPA 4022 | DPA 4080 | Nevaton MCE400 | Sennheiser Ambeo Headset |||
||| PREAMPS: DPA d:vice | Naiant Tinybox | Naiant IPA |||
||| DECKS: Sound Devices MixPre6 | iPod Touch 32GB |||
|||Concert History || LMA Recordings || Live YouTube |||

Offline Genghis Cougar Mellen Khan

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 2238
  • Gender: Male
  • Tin Can > Wax String > Dictaphone
Re: 24 bit>>16 bit??
« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2006, 06:40:40 PM »
I have just discovered that the 24 bit files I recorded w my R-1 are useless unless I have a high end cd  player to playback with.  How do I convert them to 16 bit so I can burn to cd??
Also....Is there any advantage to recording in 24 bit if I'm only gonna convert to 16 bit anyway?? 

If you have a soundcard with RCA outputs you could always utilize your PC for 24 bit playback.  The advantage is that you can archive the recordings flac>dvdr or cdr so that you have them for future use.  If you'd like a simple and quick way to convert your recordings to 16 bit to burn to cd you can always use CDWave (google cdwave) to track and then save (save as 16/44.1) your tracks and then burn them to cd.  There are various advantages to recording in 24bit as oposed to 16bit, but you can find plenty of lengthy threads on that topic using the search function.  For archiving your 24bit recorded shows I'd suggest looking into the flac compression tool if you haven't already, and if you want to convert your 24 bit files to 16 bit the best way look into utilizing a decent sound editting software.

There's enough information on this site that'll make your head spin for a while....  :o
Maybe a couple of small scratches, but thats because these mics are chick magnets.
Girls always up on Andy tryin to grab these mics, the scratches are from their wedding rings.

CMC641 / DPA4022 / DPA4062>mod MPS6030
V3 / PMD671 / field ready DV-RA1000 / Oade W-mod PMD661 / PCM-M10

Offline BC

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 2269
  • Gender: Male
  • Bongo Bongo
Re: 24 bit>>16 bit??
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2006, 10:39:53 PM »
Also....Is there any advantage to recording in 24 bit if I'm only gonna convert to 16 bit anyway?? 

In the future as your playback capabilities change, you might be able to play back those 24 bit masters at their full resolution. Something to keep in mind.

In: DPA4022>V3>Microtracker/D8

Out: Morrison ELAD>Adcom GFA555mkII>Martin Logan Aerius i

Offline BayTaynt3d

  • Trade Count: (4)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1816
  • Gender: Male
  • Live from San Francisco
    • BayTaper.com
Re: 24 bit>>16 bit??
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2006, 10:50:45 PM »
Also, if you mix or apply effects or to other editing, they can accumulate errors, so it's better to do that at 24 bit, then dither and resample down to 16 bit 44.1 hz as the very last step -- but this does add some PITA to your workflow.
BayTaper.com | One Man’s Multimedia Journey Through the San Francisco Jazz & Creative Music Scene

BobW

  • Guest
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re: 24 bit>>16 bit??
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2006, 09:21:54 AM »
Also, if you mix or apply effects or to other editing, they can accumulate errors, so it's better to do that at 24 bit, then dither and resample down to 16 bit 44.1 hz as the very last step -- but this does add some PITA to your workflow.

adobe audition has prefab scripts to convert, if you like an "easy button."
choose 1-bit or 0.5 bit dither

Audition is pretty reasonable if you qualify for the academic version.

there is freeware such as Audacity
and CDWave resamples/dithers as well plus prevents SBEs for good cd tracks, shareware at $15

The high-end guys will debate HR UV-22 dither and POW-R dither as being less noisy and more accurate.
These are in the more expensive DAW programs like Wavelab and WAVES.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2006, 09:28:24 AM by _Bob_ »

RebelRebel

  • Guest
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re: 24 bit>>16 bit??
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2006, 05:33:30 PM »
Also, for a good free Sample Rate conversion plugin, check out
http://www.voxengo.com/product/r8brain/

for comps between SRC schemes, check out
http://src.infinitewave.ca/

Offline BayTaynt3d

  • Trade Count: (4)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1816
  • Gender: Male
  • Live from San Francisco
    • BayTaper.com
Re: 24 bit>>16 bit??
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2006, 06:13:21 PM »
Anyone have any familiarity with using WAVES vst with Sound Forge? I sometimes use the L2 and L3 compressors as the last step in my workflow, not to compress really that much, more to normalize without concern for squashing some of the transients. But regardless of whether that makes you cringe or not, I've recently come to learn that the quantization/dithering/noise shaping that the L3 plugin has is supposedly very, very high end. In fact, the L2/L3 plugins are discussed several times in the "Mastering Audio" book by Bob Katz. Anyway, what I'm unclear about is that I believe it is possible to use the L2/L3 strictly to dither/noise-shape from 24-bit to 16-bit as the last step (regardless of whether you use it to comrpess). What I'm unclear about is that if I set the plugin to 16-bit, then send it a 24-bit source, I am still left with a 24-bit file at the end. At that point, I'm wondering if I can just change the bit-rate using the "process" menu WITHOUT applying any dithering or noise shaping at all? Normally, I'd use SF's dithering and noise shaping algorithms at that step, but I wonder if I use the L3/L2 at 16-bit with noise shaping/dithering, will I be essentially be dithering TWICE if I do it again with SF? Does anyone know? My impression is that the L2/L3 plugin is really designed to be the last step in the workflow. I send it a 24-bit file, and it'll handle the dithering for a move to 16-bit for me (and will compress if I want to), but I'm not sure if that is true and if it is, how do I actually change the bit rate of the file in SF at that point? Anyone have any clue about what I am talking about? THANKS!
BayTaper.com | One Man’s Multimedia Journey Through the San Francisco Jazz & Creative Music Scene

Offline BC

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 2269
  • Gender: Male
  • Bongo Bongo
Re: 24 bit>>16 bit??
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2006, 07:31:01 PM »
My masters are typically at 24/44.1, I run L2 set to 16 bit for dithering (and some slight boost if so needed) . When finished, I go File>save as, and save as a 16 bit 44.1Khz stereo file. I am assuming that it is dithered, but that since L2 is a plugin, SF does not actually "know" that the bit depth has been changed (unlike if you were to use the SF dither function) which is why is still shows up as a 24 bit file after running Waves.

I was wondering about this a while ago, whether the correct dither was actually being applied or not, but it seems reasonable to me. What do you think?

Just to throw this out there, I think running Waves L2 in Soundforge 6 inverts polarity. I recorded some trumpet a while ago and the raw waveforms are hotter on the bottom side, I am assuming since the V3 digi out inverts polarity as reported before. After dithering in L2, I noticed the top part of the waveforms is then the hot side. I am curious if you can notice something like this with SF8 and the waves plugin.


« Last Edit: April 10, 2006, 07:33:21 PM by BC »
In: DPA4022>V3>Microtracker/D8

Out: Morrison ELAD>Adcom GFA555mkII>Martin Logan Aerius i

RebelRebel

  • Guest
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re: 24 bit>>16 bit??
« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2006, 07:37:30 PM »
My masters are typically at 24/44.1, I run L2 set to 16 bit for dithering (and some slight boost if so needed) . When finished, I go File>save as, and save as a 16 bit 44.1Khz stereo file. I am assuming that it is dithered, but that since L2 is a plugin, SF does not actually "know" that the bit depth has been changed (unlike if you were to use the SF dither function) which is why is still shows up as a 24 bit file after running Waves.

I was wondering about this a while ago, whether the correct dither was actually being applied or not, but it seems reasonable to me. What do you think?

Just to throw this out there, I think running Waves L2 in Soundforge 6 inverts polarity. I recorded some trumpet a while ago and the raw waveforms are hotter on the bottom side, I am assuming since the V3 digi out inverts polarity as reported before. After dithering in L2, I noticed the top part of the waveforms is then the hot side.



Trumpets have skewed waveforms. This is normal. a lot of instruments that involve force ( our breath) going largely in one direction to produce sound end up producing waveforms that look screwed up(ie skewed in one direction). (trumpet, trombone, oboe)but in all actuality are perfectly normal.

Teddy
« Last Edit: April 10, 2006, 07:42:37 PM by Teddy »

Offline BayTaynt3d

  • Trade Count: (4)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1816
  • Gender: Male
  • Live from San Francisco
    • BayTaper.com
Re: 24 bit>>16 bit??
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2006, 08:18:33 PM »
My masters are typically at 24/44.1, I run L2 set to 16 bit for dithering (and some slight boost if so needed) . When finished, I go File>save as, and save as a 16 bit 44.1Khz stereo file. I am assuming that it is dithered, but that since L2 is a plugin, SF does not actually "know" that the bit depth has been changed (unlike if you were to use the SF dither function) which is why is still shows up as a 24 bit file after running Waves.

I was wondering about this a while ago, whether the correct dither was actually being applied or not, but it seems reasonable to me. What do you think?

Just to throw this out there, I think running Waves L2 in Soundforge 6 inverts polarity. I recorded some trumpet a while ago and the raw waveforms are hotter on the bottom side, I am assuming since the V3 digi out inverts polarity as reported before. After dithering in L2, I noticed the top part of the waveforms is then the hot side.



Trumpets have skewed waveforms. This is normal. a lot of instruments that involve force ( our breath) going largely in one direction to produce sound end up producing waveforms that look screwed up(ie skewed in one direction). (trumpet, trombone, oboe)but in all actuality are perfectly normal.

Teddy

Teddy, I think you missed his point. The point was he had an asymetrical waveform from the brass that was hotter on the bottom (totally normal, no problem yet), but after running it through the L2, the aysmetry flipped to being hotter on the top. That actually DOES sound a little strange to me.
BayTaper.com | One Man’s Multimedia Journey Through the San Francisco Jazz & Creative Music Scene

Offline BayTaynt3d

  • Trade Count: (4)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1816
  • Gender: Male
  • Live from San Francisco
    • BayTaper.com
Re: 24 bit>>16 bit??
« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2006, 08:24:03 PM »
That should be pretty easy to verify. Just take a stereo recording and copy the left channel to the right channel, so you essentially have a mono recording of the same thing in both channels, and then apply the L2 to only one channel without any compression. Then zoom in and see if the two channels are out of phase with each other.
BayTaper.com | One Man’s Multimedia Journey Through the San Francisco Jazz & Creative Music Scene

Offline BayTaynt3d

  • Trade Count: (4)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1816
  • Gender: Male
  • Live from San Francisco
    • BayTaper.com
Re: 24 bit>>16 bit??
« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2006, 08:27:35 PM »
My masters are typically at 24/44.1, I run L2 set to 16 bit for dithering (and some slight boost if so needed) . When finished, I go File>save as, and save as a 16 bit 44.1Khz stereo file. I am assuming that it is dithered, but that since L2 is a plugin, SF does not actually "know" that the bit depth has been changed (unlike if you were to use the SF dither function) which is why is still shows up as a 24 bit file after running Waves.

I was wondering about this a while ago, whether the correct dither was actually being applied or not, but it seems reasonable to me. What do you think?

Just to throw this out there, I think running Waves L2 in Soundforge 6 inverts polarity. I recorded some trumpet a while ago and the raw waveforms are hotter on the bottom side, I am assuming since the V3 digi out inverts polarity as reported before. After dithering in L2, I noticed the top part of the waveforms is then the hot side. I am curious if you can notice something like this with SF8 and the waves plugin.




This is getting EXACTLY to the core of my question. I think that the L2/L3 is doing everything needed to drop to 16-bit, but without actually changing the file type to 16-bit. Their noise shaping and dither is supposedly top-notch pro stuff, but I'm confused about how to use it in SF and the EXACT workflow. I'm not talking guessing here, I want to know for sure. I mean what is actually happening when you just save to 16-bit? I was thinking you'd still go to PROCESS > BIT DEPTH, and choose to reduce from 24 to 16, but without any of the algorithms selected?
BayTaper.com | One Man’s Multimedia Journey Through the San Francisco Jazz & Creative Music Scene

Offline BC

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 2269
  • Gender: Male
  • Bongo Bongo
Re: 24 bit>>16 bit??
« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2006, 08:31:37 PM »
I was thinking you'd still go to PROCESS > BIT DEPTH, and choose to reduce from 24 to 16, but without any of the algorithms selected?

Seems like a good idea. I dunno whether there would be a difference between doing that and just saving as a 16 bit file.    ???   
Maybe the Sonic Foundry or Waves tech support might be able to shed some light on this? I am curious also.

In: DPA4022>V3>Microtracker/D8

Out: Morrison ELAD>Adcom GFA555mkII>Martin Logan Aerius i

Offline BC

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 2269
  • Gender: Male
  • Bongo Bongo
Re: 24 bit>>16 bit??
« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2006, 08:35:27 PM »

Trumpets have skewed waveforms. This is normal. a lot of instruments that involve force ( our breath) going largely in one direction to produce sound end up producing waveforms that look screwed up(ie skewed in one direction). (trumpet, trombone, oboe)but in all actuality are perfectly normal.

Teddy

Teddy, I think you missed his point. The point was he had an asymetrical waveform from the brass that was hotter on the bottom (totally normal, no problem yet), but after running it through the L2, the aysmetry flipped to being hotter on the top. .

Yes, this is exactly what I meant.

Thanks for the tip on testing this, will give it a run when I get a chance.

In: DPA4022>V3>Microtracker/D8

Out: Morrison ELAD>Adcom GFA555mkII>Martin Logan Aerius i

Offline Brian Skalinder

  • Complaint Dept.
  • Trade Count: (28)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 18868
  • Gender: Male
Re: 24 bit>>16 bit??
« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2006, 10:00:43 PM »
but I'm confused about how to use it in SF and the EXACT workflow. I'm not talking guessing here, I want to know for sure. I mean what is actually happening when you just save to 16-bit? I was thinking you'd still go to PROCESS > BIT DEPTH, and choose to reduce from 24 to 16, but without any of the algorithms selected?

I can't confirm from experience one way or the other with SF.  But FWIW, Audition/CEP works like this:

    [1]  Open 24-bit file in a 32-bit "workspace"
    [2]  Dither w/ Waves (or other plugin) to 16-bit, leaving 16-bit audio within the 32-bit workspace
    [3]  Convert the 32-bit workspace to a 16-bit workspace -without- dithering (i.e., truncate the least significant bits)
    [4]  Save As a 16-bit file

Perhaps SF operates in similar fashion (substituting the Process > Bit Depth w/ no dither for Audition/CEP's "convert bit depth w/ no dither" function).  Try this:

  • Open an existing 16-bit file (A)
  • Save it as a 24-bit file (B)*
  • Run SF's Process > Dither function with no dither/algos on the 24-bit file (B)
  • Save the results as a 16-bit file (C)
  • Compare files (A) and (C)

If files (A) and (C) do match, then we know two things:

  •   saving a 16-bit file as 24-bit simply pads the least significant bits with zeroes (which is good), and
  •   the Process > Dither function simply truncates the least significant bits in dropping the data down to 16-bit.

Which means your workflow should be:

    [1]  Open 24-bit file
    [2]  Dither w/ Waves to 16-bit
    [3]  Process > Bit Depth (no dither/algos) to 16-bit
    [4]  Save As 16-bit file

One of the few things I prefer in Wavelab to Audition/CEP:  the render / Save As feature performs automatically the "convert to 16-bit" step [3] I have to do manually in Audition/CEP.
Milab VM-44 Links > Fostex FR-2LE or
Naiant IPA (tinybox format) >
Roland R-05

 

RSS | Mobile
Page created in 0.088 seconds with 44 queries.
© 2002-2024 Taperssection.com
Powered by SMF