Topic: ISO Advice on Tascam DR2D after First Field Attempt

[symoka01]

Heyo,

Recently picked up Tascam DR2D (upgrade from 7 year old original run Microtrack 24/96).  I pulled many fantastic tapes using the 1/4" inputs and was disappointed with the result of my first pull with the DR2D.  Looking for pointers where I may have messed up, I read quite a bit before trying in the field so hoping for personalized advice.  Please note, this is my first attempt at pulling 4 channels so a little tough with the mic setup could be a partial factor (mics worn lower than normal...but still pretty clear view at stacks).

Gear:
AT853 > Denecke PS-2 > Line in (level at 97) - DR2D (24/96)
CSSC > CS BB > Mic in (level at 67) - DR2D (24/96)
Location: 10 feet from stage LOC - two decent raised speakers and 3 big stage monitors
Type of show: Hip Hop - pretty thick bass
*Mostly stealth situations - trying to run 4 sources

Issues:
Both sources came in extremely low level - AT853 (level 97 line in averages -29.3db) & CSSC (67 mic in averages -38db)
Both Files looks extremely compressed compared what I'm used to with the MT (could be that the levels are simply too low to be effective on the display)
Bass from the AT source sounds more boomy and distorted than I like (have had overloads before at crazy loud shows with the MT but not like the waffling I heard on the Tascam)

Additional Observations:
*Thought I had the -6db backup file enabled but files did not happen - this option is available when pulling from both mic and line in, right? Any chance this was applied to the mic in CSSC or did I simply run levels too low at 67?
*Any thoughts on picking up a preamp for line in as the levels were at 97 with very low resulting volume from a really close to source pull (yet still some bass distortion on some killer bass songs - relatively small speaker setup though, mind you)
 *Thinking about an upgrade on mics and looking for good, clean, clear, low noise 1/8" input options - most likely for the core sound stealthy cardioids - thinking between (and more towards the omni options to match with AT853s - good idea for warmth dynamics I think):
    - DPA 4061
    - DPA 4021 (recommended cardioid option for loud sources - stealth)
    - CA 14 (Card or Omni)
    - Sennheiser MKE2 (heard good for bass response - a plus as I tape a lot of rap/hip hop and loud rock)
    - Nevaton MCE400
    - Any Suggestions??

*I tape mainly hip hop/rap, loud rock, but really everything. 
*tape singer-songwriter/acoustic, quiet shows a fair amount
*Love festies
*Small (stealth), sonically clean/low noise floor dynamic options appreciated (mid range price - say 800-1K for mics and connections for 1/8" input
*With the new mic option - most likely will run that line in and then AT853s mic in via denecke ps-2 (or welcomed suggestion for smaller unit with equal/better performance)
*Stealthy clip/person mounting options for high level rigs (man boobs and up preferably ha) that would be good for containing for mic cords

Word vomit...but so many unanswered questions with my new recorder, 4 channel options and potential upgrades to mics that will go well with AT's and described scenarios above

Any help or advice in any of the above areas are greatly appreciated...wanna get this shit down pat in time for NIN in September



   

[rodeen]

How much gain did you typically have to add when using the MT?  If I remember my MT settings correctly (and I may be way off on this), the levels you used for the DR2D are roughly equivalent to the MT running with the levels as low as they go. 

On the DR2D you might need a preamp before the line in input and for the mic in just raise the levels.

Good luck!  Hope you were able to boost the levels enough in post to save the recording.

[achalsey]

Did you run with any limiter or AGC on?  What were the levels peaking at at the show (if you were in a position to check them)?

[symoka01]

When running the MT, I would set "L" and be running at 1 or 2 ticks below max gain, sometimes 3 for super close taping of loud rap and rock shows (my understanding is each tick represents -4db so...typically set at -4 or -8db using 1/4" inputs (for 1/8" it seems loud sources can make red lights, even at the lowest gain setting).  Although I'd clip occasionally (recently for a hip hop show - I was prolly 2/3 of the way towards the sbd - say 30 feet from stage, two notches down on the MT [-8db]), and the bass cheeses some I barely ever catch red lights on the MT.  The peak of the hip hop show is -.18db with an average of -10db or so.  I'd say I typically averaged -16db using 1 or 2 ticks from max. 

Any recommendation on a solid preamp that would work for, say the AT853's, 4061's and MKE2? Looking for clean sound at a moderate price ($300?) with potential to use with my most probably mic upgrade options (that I'd use the Line in for should I get them). 

Unfortunately, for my first attempt in the field, it turned out not very busy and the house lights stayed on the entire show.  As a result, I really was not able to check levels at all, let alone get to the hold switch and hit record (that hold switch is tough by the way, working out of a pocket).  Since I see shows that are tough to check levels on frequently enough, I'm hoping to land in the -12 to -16db average range using solid preset gain estimates/best guesses.  Any stabs of good starting point, given my averages of my mic and line in recordings noted in my original post? This would at least give me a starting point to work with.

Thanks!

How much gain did you typically have to add when using the MT?  If I remember my MT settings correctly (and I may be way off on this), the levels you used for the DR2D are roughly equivalent to the MT running with the levels as low as they go. 

On the DR2D you might need a preamp before the line in input and for the mic in just raise the levels.

Good luck!  Hope you were able to boost the levels enough in post to save the recording.

[symoka01]

Did you run with any limiter or AGC on?  What were the levels peaking at at the show (if you were in a position to check them)?

I did not knowingly run any limiter or gain control - I believe I turned everything on the DR2D off that was an option except the dual record and recording bitrate, etc.  I've never used them as I've always liked a clean, dynamic a source as possible (please correct me if I'm talking out of my ass).  That being said, I taped a lot of strong peaks while using the MT that needed EQ in post but were super tasty (less the occasional brickwall - the downfall I suppose). 

I'll admit, my knowledge of limiters and AGC are somewhat limited with regards to the recording gear chain (vs in post).  I'd love to hear thoughts on the main pros and cons of using them vs. not and same for preamps vs battery boxes (ie: effect on sound quality vs increased gain control).

cheers!

[Gutbucket]

*Thought I had the -6db backup file enabled but files did not happen - this option is available when pulling from both mic and line in, right? 

No.

There are 3 different dual recording modes:
DUAL (might be called MIC)- records two stereo files, the second a copy of the microphone input recorded at a lower input level as determined by your menu setting.
MIX- records a single stereo file which is a mix of the microphone and line-inputs, with the mix ratio determined by your menu setting.
LINE- records two separate stereo files, one for the mic-input, the other for the line-input.

You can only use one mode at a time (or none, for straight 2-channel operation), meaning that if you are using DUAL_LINE mode to record both inputs separately, you cannot also record lower level backup copies of them.

Any chance this was applied to the mic in CSSC or did I simply run levels too low at 67?

Sounds like you want DUAL_LINE mode to record both inputs separately.  If it was set to DUAL_LINE, then you can raise mic-input level above 67 as much as is required.  You can also raise the line-input level to 100 which gets you another 3dB to start. 

*Any thoughts on picking up a preamp for line in as the levels were at 97 with very low resulting volume from a really close to source pull (yet still some bass distortion on some killer bass songs - relatively small speaker setup though, mind you)

As mentioned, you can raise the line-input level to 100 which gets you another 3dB without doing anything else to start.  The distortion and compression is probably either from the PA or the mics.  I’m not familiar with the PS-2 but assume your AT’s are 3-wire and connect to the Denecke via AT XLR phantom adapters? If not and the mics are wired for two-wire output (usually to a mini-jack plug) do they have the 4.7ohm mod?  I’d expect them to distort in that situation if they do not.

Small preamps from Church Audio and Niant are designed for this and will work well.  The Church Audio amps are for low voltage mics, the Niant Tinybox can support either low voltage and P-48 mics, depending on options and interface cables.

*Thinking about an upgrade on mics and looking for good, clean, clear, low noise 1/8" input options - most likely for the core sound stealthy cardioids - thinking between (and more towards the omni options to match with AT853s - good idea for warmth dynamics I think):
    - DPA 4061
    - DPA 4021 (recommended cardioid option for loud sources - stealth)
    - CA 14 (Card or Omni)
    - Sennheiser MKE2 (heard good for bass response - a plus as I tape a lot of rap/hip hop and loud rock)
    - Nevaton MCE400
    - Any Suggestions??

4021 and MCE400 require phantom power, either from a preamp or phantom supply.  The others can be used with a low voltage battery box, or preamp, or alternately with P-48 and phantom adapters.  The 4021 is a great mic but in a much higher price bracket than all the other mics you mention, well above your 800-1K price range.

Unfortunately, for my first attempt in the field, it turned out not very busy and the house lights stayed on the entire show.  As a result, I really was not able to check levels at all, let alone get to the hold switch and hit record (that hold switch is tough by the way, working out of a pocket).  Since I see shows that are tough to check levels on frequently enough, I'm hoping to land in the -12 to -16db average range using solid preset gain estimates/best guesses.

Sounds good.  Once you determine how to get those safe level settings which do not need adjustment during the performance, turn the recorder on and lock the hold switch before the show, then use the remote to start and stop recording without taking the recorder out of your pocket.  Confirm that it is recording or not by the red LED on top between input jacks, which is also the location of the remote sensor.  Point the remote there.  Keep the remote in another pocket; it cannot accidentally control the machine with an accidental button press unless pointed at the remote sensor.