Topic: What sounds like this?

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Ok, so over the last 2 or 3 months I've been looking at at least 3 mic brands (akg, mbho, neumann come to mind), as I'd like the sound of this (which has this for a sound) in a package thats the size of this. I find the BSCS-L to be sort of a brightish mic (or at least as a cardioid), and I'm interested in what mics that have small/active style setups people think sounds closest to this? Alternatively, what mic/preamp combo sounds closest to this (but this is tertiary if I can find just a mic that fits the criteria).

[Brian Skalinder]

I think MBHOs are the brightest of the ability-to-run-capsule-remote-from-body bunch.  With the 603A bodies (and maybe the 648A; it's been a while since I've checked out their line-up), you may run the caps remotely from the bodies, fitting a similar form factor as the Neumann KM100 series.

I'm not as familiar with their sound, but I suspect someone will chime in shortly about the Milab VM-44 Link.

[Todd R]

Since I feel like I've been prompted, I guess I'll chime in.

I really like the milab vm-44's and think they are a great mic period, and certainly a great option if you're looking for an active-style setup.  That said, I'm not at all familiar with the busman LD mic (and can't listen now at work).  I don't think the milabs sound anything like the mbhos, more like the neumanns if anything to my ear.  I think the milabs could definitely be described as detailed since they have a high frequency bump like the km140s, but they have a rich middle and full/taut low end.  To me, they don't sound bright in this context (which the mbhos do to me).  Again, a lot like the km140s to my ear, though I prefer the low end on the milabs.

I recently got a pair of ADK sc-t small diamter mics.  These are a bit rolled off in the lows (which can admittedly be not a bad thing when it comes to recording bass heavy PA music), which to my ear makes them sound brighter.  If this is the kind of sound you're looking for with the busman LD, I'm not sure you'd want the milabs.  Best however to do some listening to them and see for yourself.

All that said, the busman mic has a fig8 pattern and the neumann pictured in the link you have looks like an MS setup.  If you're looking to do MS, the milabs are out since they only have cardioid and omni caps available.

[datbrad]

Since I feel like I've been prompted, I guess I'll chime in.

I really like the milab vm-44's and think they are a great mic period, and certainly a great option if you're looking for an active-style setup.  That said, I'm not at all familiar with the busman LD mic (and can't listen now at work).  I don't think the milabs sound anything like the mbhos, more like the neumanns if anything to my ear.  I think the milabs could definitely be described as detailed since they have a high frequency bump like the km140s, but they have a rich middle and full/taut low end.  To me, they don't sound bright in this context (which the mbhos do to me).  Again, a lot like the km140s to my ear, though I prefer the low end on the milabs.

I recently got a pair of ADK sc-t small diamter mics.  These are a bit rolled off in the lows (which can admittedly be not a bad thing when it comes to recording bass heavy PA music), which to my ear makes them sound brighter.  If this is the kind of sound you're looking for with the busman LD, I'm not sure you'd want the milabs.  Best however to do some listening to them and see for yourself.

All that said, the busman mic has a fig8 pattern and the neumann pictured in the link you have looks like an MS setup.  If you're looking to do MS, the milabs are out since they only have cardioid and omni caps available.

I will second that for the price, the Milabs cannot be beat in terms of value. My buddy Matt uses them with a V2 and MR1000 and his tapes smoke. If you are thinking a little cheaper, I say go with a gently used set of KM184s and get Drew to make you one of those cool mic clips like he did for Chris, buy some of those Darktrain stubbies, and you are in business. Have you listened to the recordings Drew has been making with the 184>FR2LE Busman mod? I think they are just great sounding, way better than the Busman mics he had, IMO.

[Chuck]

Did Busman launch his "active" mics? I don't see them on the Busman Audio web site.

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Did Busman launch his "active" mics? I don't see them on the Busman Audio web site.

Not yet, this fall. He said he'd chop my LD down to size later, but not until after the launch, so I figure I have around 12 months before that happens.

Since I feel like I've been prompted, I guess I'll chime in.

I really like the milab vm-44's and think they are a great mic period, and certainly a great option if you're looking for an active-style setup.  That said, I'm not at all familiar with the busman LD mic (and can't listen now at work).  I don't think the milabs sound anything like the mbhos, more like the neumanns if anything to my ear.  I think the milabs could definitely be described as detailed since they have a high frequency bump like the km140s, but they have a rich middle and full/taut low end.  To me, they don't sound bright in this context (which the mbhos do to me).  Again, a lot like the km140s to my ear, though I prefer the low end on the milabs.

I recently got a pair of ADK sc-t small diamter mics.  These are a bit rolled off in the lows (which can admittedly be not a bad thing when it comes to recording bass heavy PA music), which to my ear makes them sound brighter.  If this is the kind of sound you're looking for with the busman LD, I'm not sure you'd want the milabs.  Best however to do some listening to them and see for yourself.

All that said, the busman mic has a fig8 pattern and the neumann pictured in the link you have looks like an MS setup.  If you're looking to do MS, the milabs are out since they only have cardioid and omni caps available.

I will second that for the price, the Milabs cannot be beat in terms of value. My buddy Matt uses them with a V2 and MR1000 and his tapes smoke. If you are thinking a little cheaper, I say go with a gently used set of KM184s and get Drew to make you one of those cool mic clips like he did for Chris, buy some of those Darktrain stubbies, and you are in business. Have you listened to the recordings Drew has been making with the 184>FR2LE Busman mod? I think they are just great sounding, way better than the Busman mics he had, IMO.

Yeah, I ruled out the SD busmans a long time ago, I wish I had some frequency and polar plots to compare as I don't trust my ears when listening to other tapes to give a clear picture of what I'd expect in the field. Figured someone else who's better at reconciling that might have an idea. I think the Milab DC-196s are the closest frequency response (somewhat level, bright spike for intellegibility, but it's darker in the bottom and not active-styled). The one tape I've heard from the VM-44s are bright, but that very well could have been the configuration that they were run it (more on axis with less roll off), honestly don't know.

I may try and borrow Drew's 184s sometime and see if I can run them at 110 to see how they respond, I've heard him run them closer, around 90 to so and I find them bright (but in some ways I find mine bright around that angle as well).

For the record, the mad scientist mic isn't going away, it's just getting a partner. 

[Todd R]

BTW, here's a link to a comp file I put together of VM-44s vs km140s:

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,112988.msg1516489.html#msg1516489

I think the megaupload download is still available.  Read thru some of the posts following this one on some info on the comp, including what is screwed up.  Overall, you can do a listen of milab vs km140 on the same stand, same mic pattern, so it should help in seeing how the milabs compare to the neumanns.

Also, I'm the first to admit that I like a brighter sound -- always have.  So what is bright to many sounds right to me, and what sounds bright to me probably sounds really painful to those that lean to the dark side of things.  

Always good to listen for yourself in this regard, though I hear you that it is hard to make judgements on tapes out of context.  I like to find shows on the archive with the mics I'm interested in where there are also other archive copies of the same show done with mics I am more familiar with (eg, neumanns, akgs), so I can try to make a better assessment of the target mic relative to some more known quantities.  Thus why I think the YMSB and ENB comps of vm44 to km140 come in handy on that megaupload comp.

Good luck!

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I appreciate the link, it definitely gives me a better idea of what their sound is in relationship to each other. Unfortunately, I can't really tell a difference, maybe a hair more bass off of the neumanns, but on the bright side (no pun intended) at least now I know that. 

[datbrad]

I appreciate the link, it definitely gives me a better idea of what their sound is in relationship to each other. Unfortunately, I can't really tell a difference, maybe a hair more bass off of the neumanns, but on the bright side (no pun intended) at least now I know that. 

See, Todd's point made, I have always considered Neumanns to be rather flat, not bright. You hear brightness, I don't. But then, I like AKGs which are often considered bright, but matched with the right preamp, not necessarily. I think the sound Drew has been getting with the 184s into the TMOD FR2LE is outstanding. If I was going to recomend one mic brand/model to you that I believe you would really enjoy in terms of value, ease of use, small form factor, and sound matching up really well with your particular recorder, I have to go with the 184s. And one more thing, one of the golden rules of audio EQ is that you can dial back too much high end far easier than you can add high end when there is not enough in the raw recording. The majority of what makes music and sound in general intelligable is the high frequencies, so don't be afraid of capturing all of them.   

[page]

I appreciate the link, it definitely gives me a better idea of what their sound is in relationship to each other. Unfortunately, I can't really tell a difference, maybe a hair more bass off of the neumanns, but on the bright side (no pun intended) at least now I know that. 

See, Todd's point made, I have always considered Neumanns to be rather flat, not bright. You hear brightness, I don't. But then, I like AKGs which are often considered bright, but matched with the right preamp, not necessarily. I think the sound Drew has been getting with the 184s into the TMOD FR2LE is outstanding. If I was going to recomend one mic brand/model to you that I believe you would really enjoy in terms of value, ease of use, small form factor, and sound matching up really well with your particular recorder, I have to go with the 184s. And one more thing, one of the golden rules of audio EQ is that you can dial back too much high end far easier than you can add high end when there is not enough in the raw recording. The majority of what makes music and sound in general intelligable is the high frequencies, so don't be afraid of capturing all of them.   

Yeah, I think the samples sound balanced and great, but they are indoors where I've found things are darker to start with. Realistically I'd still use the BSCS-L outdoors where I think it really shines, but indoors (such as the National where we have less then optimum taping conditions), is where this set of mics would be used.

Something to think about. I do appreciate everyone playing along and providing notes. I've almost got enough cash saved to do something now so I'm trying to figure out what I want in ernest.

[Todd R]

Not to belabor the milabs since I don't think they'd be to your tastes from what you say, but since we've gone this far down the road...

You might want to check out this STS9 show I taped indoors at the Boulder Theater:
http://www.archive.org/details/STS92007-03-15.FLAC16

The other stuff was pretty bluegrassy. This STS9 show has a lot more bass in the music, so it'd give a better feel for how the milabs reproduce the low end.

Again, not at all trying to put the pressure on since I don't think the milabs would be for you, but it is hard IMO to get a good sense of a mic from bluegrassy music (that's just what I could easily find for comp material to the km140s).

For mics on the other side of things a bit, you might want to check out the beyer mc930 and mk930 (if I've got those model numbers correct, but they make a regular mic and a remote capsule version).

[JasonSobel]

For mics on the other side of things a bit, you might want to check out the beyer mc930 and mk930 (if I've got those model numbers correct, but they make a regular mic and a remote capsule version).

the beyerdynamic MC930 is the full body version, and the CK930 is the version with the remote cable.  While these are great mics, relatively affordable, and come in a nice small package, I definitely would NOT classify these mics as "bright".  If anything, I'd say that they're on the "dark" side of the spectrum, which is why I haven't recommended them.  Honestly, I think the MBHO actives are your best bet if you're looking for a "bright" sound in a small, "active style" microphone.

[Todd R]

Just to be clear -- I find the beyers to be on the darker side too.  The first post seemed to be asking for brighter mics, but with all the comments on the milabs, I thought Page wasn't looking for brighter mics.

Again, everyone has their own tastes, but if the milabs and neumanns are too bright, I don't think the mbhos would be labeled less bright.

[page]

Just to be clear -- I find the beyers to be on the darker side too.  The first post seemed to be asking for brighter mics, but with all the comments on the milabs, I thought Page wasn't looking for brighter mics.

Again, everyone has their own tastes, but if the milabs and neumanns are too bright, I don't think the mbhos would be labeled less bright.

thats just it, this may be a case of ignorance on my part. I've listened to stuff, but if I run at 110 coincident and you run at 80-95 with spacing, our tapes (in theory) should sound different due to time delay phase cancelation and off-axis response. Sometimes I think what I've got is bright, sometimes I don't think so, not really sure since I have too many factors (rooms and mixes, and random ineptitude) to reconcile my own equipment, let alone against someone elses. To make matters slightly worse (or at least not any better), I don't have any analytical data that tells me how the mic is inclined one way or another to use as a baseline.

ignorence. 

[Chuck]

Before I do any subjective listening, I play some music tracks that are well recorded, mixed & mastered. For me, that is commercial recordings... specifically, Steely Dan, Royal Scam - MCA Records MCAD-31193; Counting Crows, August and Everything After - Geffen DGCD-24528; Bonnie Raitt, Luck Of the Draw - Capitol Records 07777-96111, etc... That gives me a reference from which to judge whatever recording I am listening to.

What I am trying to say is, that you may need some good reference material to use for comparison to figure out what you really like. When I find an audience recording that I think holds up well against a well recorded, mixed and mastered commercial recording, I save a track or two from it and add it to my reference library. If you do that, that library will be specific to you, reflecting your preferences. It may make it easier for you to determine what mics/ pre-amps/ etc... you prefer.