Topic: What's wrong with my new SP gear?? (sample included)

[livingdna]

...you can have the mics wired 3 wire...

What do you mean? Do I need to re-solder the wiring or is it plug and play?
What's the difference between your 9200 and 9100? I was only able to find the 9100 on your page.
Do you have any smaller options available or does a preamp simply take up more space than a battery box?

[acidjack]

Also if for some reason you don't want to just have your SP mics fixed with the low sens mod, for the same price as Chris' preamp you could also just buy some of Chris' mics and continue using them with the SP battery box.  Chris' mics don't have problems with high SPLs, since they are designed for concert recording.

[Humbug]

Some very good advice on this thread - it's clear SP are still in denial about probs with the AT853 caps, and that C-A also have very good products and / or a solution.

Having been through this, and stuck with the AT mics, my suggestion is to either to try and mod the mics to 3-wire mini-XLR plugs, and get hold of a cheap 3-wire battery box (surely someone makes one now - mine was custom built for me by a board member), or get the 4.7k mod, and carry on 2-wire (cheapest option).

Or ask Chris at C-A to mod them, and supply a 9100 pre-amp. I'm quite happy with mine, but prefer to use the 3-wire battery box for most occasions, as I like the way it sounds.

If then you don't like the sound of the AT mics, it's a simple matter to change to CA mics. 

[Church-Audio]

...you can have the mics wired 3 wire...

What do you mean? Do I need to re-solder the wiring or is it plug and play?
I can do that for you for $30 that includes the two 3 wire mini xlr connectors and labor.

What's the difference between your 9200 and 9100? I was only able to find the 9100 on your page.
The 9200 has 40 db of gain in 6 steps the 9100 has 20 db of gain that is continually variable. Both are good preamps if you need to record a wide variety of material the 9200 is the best bet if you record fairly loud shows the 9100 is a  good deal. Both preamps are the same size the details of the 9200 are available on the retail section on this board.

Do you have any smaller options available or does a preamp simply take up more space than a battery box?
I have no smaller preamp except for the UGLY that has most of the features of the 9100 but its only the size of a 9 volt battery. The preamp is bigger than a battery box but a battery box does not provide any gain what so ever.

[Humbug]

I can do that for you for $30 that includes the two 3 wire mini xlr connectors and labor.

That's not a bad deal - one thing to consider when not running open is that these are locking connectors, so (provided you clicked them in properly) they will not come loose while recording, which is a possibility with a 1/8" connector.

[livingdna]

Thanks for all advice - good stuff. Wish I knew before I spend all my money on SP gear. Now to save up for a CA solution!

[nameloc01]

Thanks for all advice - good stuff. Wish I knew before I spend all my money on SP gear. Now to save up for a CA solution!

theres nothing wrong with Audio-Technica gear.. however,there is something wrong with running it incorrectly. As there also is with running CA gear incorrectly,DPA incorrectly,Schoeps incorrectly,Coresound incorrectly..ect.

SP sold the mics that way because more people are likely to buy them when the price is cheaper..the price is cheaper because they are being sold to run off of an el'cheapo battery box with a miniplug vs. a phantom power supply with mini xlrs and adaptors. its several hundred dollars less expensive.

that is the price that is paid (clipping) when shortcuts are attempted.

keep in mind, when Audio Technica ships their mics to Soundpros, they all have mini xlrs on them ( and 25' cables). Soundpros removes them and adds the miniplug...for the reason stated above. To put the mini xlrs on the mics isnt a "mod", its putting them back to the original factory state, the miniplug version is actually the "mod". the mics were intended to be ran, with an adaptor from a board that supplies phantom power, or from one of their belt battery packs. Thats it, that simple.

I would have someone make you a nice 3wire battery box,or get Churchs' switchable preamp.

[Cheesecadet]

Thanks for all advice - good stuff. Wish I knew before I spend all my money on SP gear. Now to save up for a CA solution!

theres nothing wrong with Audio-Technica gear.. however,there is something wrong with running it incorrectly. As there also is with running CA gear incorrectly,DPA incorrectly,Schoeps incorrectly,Coresound incorrectly..ect.

SP sold the mics that way because more people are likely to buy them when the price is cheaper..the price is cheaper because they are being sold to run off of an el'cheapo battery box with a miniplug vs. a phantom power supply with mini xlrs and adaptors. its several hundred dollars less expensive.

that is the price that is paid (clipping) when shortcuts are attempted.

keep in mind, when Audio Technica ships their mics to Soundpros, they all have mini xlrs on them ( and 25' cables). Soundpros removes them and adds the miniplug...for the reason stated above. To put the mini xlrs on the mics inst really a "mod", its putting them back to the original factory state, the miniplug version is actually the "mod". the mics were intended to be ran, with an adaptor from a board that supplies phantom power, or from one of their belt battery packs. Thats it, that simple.

I would have someone make you a nice 3wire battery box,or get Churchs' switchable preamp.

Agreed 100%.  SP Gear is great if it is run correctly.  I have a pair of the original AT853's that terminate in Mini-XLRs that tgakis made for me.  Got a CA-9100 v4.4a from Chris Church with the Mini-XLR input and switchable 4.7k mod.  I have made some smoking recordings with this setup!

[Humbug]

I have a pair of the original AT853's that terminate in Mini-XLRs that tgakis made for me.  Got a CA-9100 v4.4a from Chris Church with the Mini-XLR input and switchable 4.7k mod.  I have made some smoking recordings with this setup!

Please check out a couple of my nicest recordings using AT933's:

http://www.archive.org/details/dbt2010-11-24.at933

http://www.archive.org/details/lf2008-07-11.at933.flac16

[acidjack]

.. I've also made some smoking recordings with the miniplug-terminated 853s with the "low sensitivity" aka 4.7k mod, running into an "el cheapo" battery box.

For example:
http://www.archive.org/details/mogwai2009-04-29.flac16_638

That band is loud as hell.  Not many louder except the Melvins and Motorhead.  No brickwalling there.

The solution that doesn't involve the OP spending a bunch more money and/or waiting around with no gear is to send them back to SP and have them do the low sensitivity mod.  I've found their turnaround to be about 1wk or so. 

Knowing what I know now, I don't disagree that the BEST solution is using the original 3-wire with a CA preamp powering the mics.  But it's not required, and doing what I suggest is cheaper and makes the rig less complicated.  My $.02.

[Church-Audio]

.. I've also made some smoking recordings with the miniplug-terminated 853s with the "low sensitivity" aka 4.7k mod, running into an "el cheapo" battery box.

For example:
http://www.archive.org/details/mogwai2009-04-29.flac16_638

That band is loud as hell.  Not many louder except the Melvins and Motorhead.  No brickwalling there.

The solution that doesn't involve the OP spending a bunch more money and/or waiting around with no gear is to send them back to SP and have them do the low sensitivity mod.  I've found their turnaround to be about 1wk or so. 

Knowing what I know now, I don't disagree that the BEST solution is using the original 3-wire with a CA preamp powering the mics.  But it's not required, and doing what I suggest is cheaper and makes the rig less complicated.  My $.02.

If you are running the 853 with my 9100 or 9200 preamp with the 4.7k mod its a pretty good flexible system. In the end.... The best solution is the one that works. If a battery box works thats good, some guys tape all kinds of shows from quiet to loud my 9100 or 9200 with the 4.7k mod allows you to do it all with little to no needed gain in post and much less noise.

Chris

[thirtyfour]

I'm gonna jump in this thread, rather than start a new one, since I have a similar setup. I've got the SP Premium Binaurals (SP-CMC-8) & their "premium battery box", both 1/8", which I got about 12 years ago w/ an M1. I switched to R-09 a few years back, but I've become a bit dissatisfied w/ the quality of my recordings (even those done on the M1, so I'm guessing that's not where the difference is). Most of the shows I go to are very loud rock, and they always sound distorted & muddy- maybe that's just unavoidable, but I've heard better recordings of similar shows, so there must be something I can do. Oh, and quieter shows sound GREAT. But those are fairly rare (maybe 1-2 a year compared to 20-30 very loud ones).

Currently stealth taping, clipping the mics at collar level (I'm also usually a head taller than most of the people in the crowd, so there isn't too much muffling). I've set the bass roll-off to various levels with seemingly little to no effect- recordings are still bassy as hell, since that's what tends to be the loudest... Using line in w/ ACG off, stereo mic, no low cut, low gain.
Samples: http://www.archive.org/details/sp2010-08-11
Note the first review at the bottom.

So- do I need new mics? The "4.7k mod"? A new battery box/preamp? A full frontal lobotomy?  I'm in JP, so not sure about shipping stuff back & forth, but I DO go to a lot of shows, so I'd like to start getting better-sounding recordings... Got about a month before my next planned show.

[acidjack]

Sadly, I have to agree with that first reviewer - that's an unlistenable amount of distortion.

Assuming you've got a nice new battery in the battery box, your problem is almost definitely that you need the 4.7k mod, or a different set of mics.  I used the mics you have for about a year and liked them, and I used them at VERY loud shows, and never had an issue.  I had the mod.  I'd go that route, or get some Church Audio mics.  IMHO the SP CMC-8 (once modded) sound better than the CA-11, worse than the CA-14, but the SP mics are also smaller than the CA-14.  You're clipping to a collar, so maybe the -14s wouldn't be that noticeable, but they are bigger than what you run now.

[adrianf74]

It definitely sounds like overloading, but as many have asked, at what point exactly is this happening?

The overloading/brickwalling issue is one of the reasons that led me to sell my CMC-8's (AT-933/c) because I didn't see value in getting them modded when I could sell them and move to Chris Church's gear.  I've gotten many excellent captures with the AT-933/c's (especially Matthew Good on his first solo tour in '03 and a Kraftwerk show from around that time period as well).   I've also had some dogs as well because of being too close and overloading the mics (even though I was running a proper battery box).  Again, this was using two-wire SP made mics.

I can also add that I've used my CA-14's with the 9100 pre-amp in a couple of very loud scenarios (to put it mildly, my -28dB earplugs seemed like they weren't doing anything) and got some amazing captures and no brickwalling/distortion so if the mics/gear are made properly, you shouldn't be experiencing anything like what you experienced.  I'd definitely be pushing back on SP.

[F.O.Bean]

I would sell your SP mics and pick up some CA-14[Cards/Omnis] and get a 9100/9200/Battery Box, and be down with it My 1st recording using CA-14 Cards>SP BB>M10 BLEW MY MIND, it sounds so good.